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Darzin

The future of Catholicism

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What do you think is the long-term future of the Catholic Church? As of now the church is struggling with many issues’ child sex abuse scandals. doctrinal issues around same sex marriage and slumping attendance in developed countries. But it is also experiencing tremendous growth in Africa and Asia. 

I think if the church doesn't reform on LGBT rights It might end up being an object of derision in Western countries. Gay rights are relatively recent but in a hundred years if the church has the same stance it's going to be a big issue. I think liberal and cultural Catholics will gradually fall away as the church’s morals become unacceptable to society. Leaving a conservative core similar to the ultra-orthodox Haredi communities. We can already see this a bit with Latin mass and Society of St Pius X churches. 

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I'm amazed people still want to be associated with Catholicism after all of child sex scandals and mass coverups. How can anyone justify giving the church money when you know where it's going to?

Edited by Tywin et al.

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215 bodies were just found in a mass grave in a Residential School run by the RCC in Kamloops BC. The RCC has refused to release its records from the time and refused in general to apologize for its part in the Residential School system.

The RCC should die.

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59 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

I'm amazed people still want to be associated with Catholicism after all of child sex scandals and mass coverups. How can anyone justify giving the church money when you know where it's going to?

Good grief. The total % of one's donations that would go to covering up sex scandals would be very small. Why would one stop giving money on that basis when they know that the majority of their funds are going toward running their local parish and its activities and supporting other works of the church that have nothing to do with the sex scandals? 

Edited by Ormond

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19 minutes ago, Ormond said:

Good grief. The total % of one's donations that would go to covering up sex scandals would be very small. Why would one stop giving money on that basis when they know that the majority of their funds are going toward running their local parish and its activities and supporting other works of the church that have nothing to do with the sex scandals? 

The percentage is irrelevant. The Catholic church has spent billions covering up how its leaders have sexually abused children while actively enabling its predators. 

Edited by Tywin et al.

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2 hours ago, Darzin said:

I think if the church doesn't reform on LGBT rights It might end up being an object of derision in Western countries. Gay rights are relatively recent but in a hundred years if the church has the same stance it's going to be a big issue. I think liberal and cultural Catholics will gradually fall away as the church’s morals become unacceptable to society. Leaving a conservative core similar to the ultra-orthodox Haredi communities. We can already see this a bit with Latin mass and Society of St Pius X churches. 

I think LGBTQ+ rights are one of the things they can't realistically move on.

a) It's one of those Church fundamentals. and b) they are a world church. And "Western Values" and views on homosexuality don't work in other parts of the world. I think that makes it pretty hard/impossible for them to move on those issues - at least for the next 50 years or so. I mean, Pope Francis's position, which I think roughly translates into not condemning the sinner but sorta tolerate it, is as far it goes. At least, that's my interpretation of it from the outside. And large organizations are pretty slow to adept to change. So, I don't think it's particularly likely we will see a gay wedding in a Catholic Church any time soon.

Sidenote, I never quite understood Catholic members of the LGBTQ+ community remaining part of the Catholic Church. I mean, that organization has been telling them that they will literally go to hell. I guess my reaction would be something along the lines. Yeah, right. Don't wait for me, there.

The wide spread child abuse is a much bigger problem for the Catholic Church. That one directly undermines its moral authority. And how slowly it moves on this issue just shows how slow that organization is to adept. Which was one of the things that has lead to Munich archbishop, Cardinal Marx (widely regarded as one of the more moderate/progressives), to offer his resgination. The Pope told him to continue for now.

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1 hour ago, Tywin et al. said:

The percentage is irrelevant. The Catholic church has spent billions covering up how its leaders have sexually abused children while actively enabling its predators. 

No, the Catholic Church has not spent billions of dollars covering up how it’s leaders have sexually abused children. Don’t be such an idiot. When a scandal happened they just moved the priest to another parish.

And as far as I can tell it’s not “it’s leaders” either, but parish priests who stayed parish priests. There are exceptions, I’m sure. And I fervently hope there are Cardinals and Bishops and Popes who are burning in hell for the blind eye they turned when they heard the stories and for their failure to take action.

I’ve had this argument before on many occasions. Human beings will do disgusting things to other human beings, and putting a priest’s collar or a nun’s habit on someone isn’t going to change a human into some better creature. We know now that a person who abused others was more than likely abused as a child. We as a society don’t deal with abuse very well. There are lots of horror stories around about institutions where there were people with power who had helpless, or weak, or marginalized people under their control, and the stories are all ugly, including sexual abuse and unmarked graves. That includes family members doing terrible things to their children, siblings, parents and other relatives. Right at this very moment there are probably hundreds of thousands of people across North America turning a blind eye to the abuse a neighbor is inflicting on a their family, because “it’s none of our business”. Human beings suck at humanity.
 

For too long a time the RC church pretty well accepted anyone interested into the church ranks as nuns and priests. I suspect that many of them had no vocation whatsoever, they came from large families and there were no jobs or spouses for them, so they took jobs as nuns and priests. They had food and shelter and work to do and built their little empires and because they were an authority figure they got away with whatever they did. That kind of behavior has to end, has to stopped in it’s tracks.
 

Every Catholic I know is appalled by stories of sexual abuse and horrible stories from the past, and want the Church to clean up it’s act. It’s crazy that it took so long for a pope to finally come out and clarify that abusers, both clerics and lay employees of churches, have to be reported to the appropriate authorities when wrong doing is uncovered.

Edited by Fragile Bird

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11 minutes ago, A Horse Named Stranger said:

I think LGBTQ+ rights are one of the things they can't realistically move on.

a) It's one of those Church fundamentals. and b) they are a world church. And "Western Values" and views on homosexuality don't work in other parts of the world. I think that makes it pretty hard/impossible for them to move on those issues - at least for the next 50 years or so. I mean, Pope Francis's position, which I think roughly translates into not condemning the sinner but sorta tolerate it, is as far it goes. At least, that's my interpretation of it from the outside. And large organizations are pretty slow to adept to change. So, I don't think it's particularly likely we will see a gay wedding in a Catholic Church any time soon.

Sidenote, I never quite understood Catholic members of the LGBTQ+ community remaining part of the Catholic Church. I mean, that organization has been telling them that they will literally go to hell. I guess my reaction would be something along the lines. Yeah, right. Don't wait for me, there.

 

I agree that they can't realistically change there is also a lot of underlying philosophy that goes with those stances and a hierarchy of celebates is not going to be sympathetic to the idea people need sex. I get conservative LBTQ+ members who abstain from sex the church teaches that's fine. But I don't get non abstaining or liberal Catholics if they actually got the Church to do what they want it would disprove it. It seems to me you should either believe what the Church teaches or leave into the world of Protestantism/Agnosticism/Athiesm. 

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2 hours ago, Tywin et al. said:

I'm amazed people still want to be associated with Catholicism after all of child sex scandals and mass coverups. How can anyone justify giving the church money when you know where it's going to?

You obviously didn't grow up in a country where everyone else is catholic. It's really really hard to fit in if you're not. Children will make fun of you and adults will talk behind your back (not my personal experience but I've seen plenty). 

Edited by Fillyjonk Eilhart

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https://www.newsweek.com/over-3-billion-paid-lawsuits-catholic-church-over-sex-abuse-claims-1090753

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2020-01-08/the-catholic-church-s-strategy-to-limit-payouts-to-abuse-victims

Yep tiny issue, small percentage, not a big deal. And hey the Pope has said some shit about how outraged he is over this. So problem solved right? Oh sure it hasn't actually fucking stopped, but yeah the current Pope has a better image than the last asshole in charge.

Jesus Christ some of you people.

Edited by TrueMetis

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I think about this a lot.

It increasingly appears to me the Roman Catholic Church has been the continuation of the Roman Empire, though not strategized or planned to be that.  Latin ... language as we always see has the greatest power, which is why again, in the US, the use of English and control over what is said and written about our history is such an enormous, continuing battleground in the current war -- which itself is a continuation of the War of the Rebellion.

As the Roman Empire waned on certain planes (and plains!) in the third and fourth centuries, with Constantine it took a new course -- and looked a different direction -- north and east, while the west was ever more under the control of so-called outsiders whose origins were outside, not real "Romans."  Justinian's reconquest of the west was short-lived, shall we say? However, with the literal end of the Eastern Empire in 1453, unlike in the West, the Orthodox Church wasn't a continuation of the old Empire, despite, in the the East, everyone from the Chinese emperor to Kublai Khan to the Arabs and Ottoman Mehmed still calling it "Rome" - Rûm.

So I think the Roman Catholic Church will also, as it has in the past, take some different courses and look at different directions.  And endure. It's got the experience, talent, cunning (including flair for corruption w/o remorse and always forgiveness if asked) and material wherewithal to do so.  It is no different in this than the Hindu Temple organization, the Buddhist integrations, Islamic mosques.  It was one of the many impressive themes Herbert pulled off in Dune (the first volume only -- the rest, meh), dramatizing how the initial power of a religion can cyclically refresh itself, and insert itself again into the ruling political configurations.

And honestly, I'm more interested in seeing the far right, snake handling, child and woman abusing, protestant evangelizing (their inroads in African, Latin America and parts of southeast Asia are stronger than the Church's -- and create cruelties far greater) US 'christians' against democracy and tolerance and for nothing but money and power go down, crash and burn, babee, burn. This includes the Mormons, who have particularly strong outposts in the Pacific and southeast Asian rim.

Not that I am in the least unappalled and sickened by the constant revelations of Church abuse of children and women, and all the rest. Or am excusing it.  Not at all. Justice must be served. But as so often, it probably won't be.  Not in public anyway.

 

 

Edited by Zorral

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32 minutes ago, TrueMetis said:

https://www.newsweek.com/over-3-billion-paid-lawsuits-catholic-church-over-sex-abuse-claims-1090753

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2020-01-08/the-catholic-church-s-strategy-to-limit-payouts-to-abuse-victims

Yep tiny issue, small percentage, not a big deal. And hey the Pope has said some shit about how outraged he is over this. So problem solved right? Oh sure it hasn't actually fucking stopped, but yeah the current Pope has a better image than the last asshole in charge.

Jesus Christ some of you people.

If that was directed at me, I said they didn’t spend billions covering up. That billions have been paid out is obvious. They denied, denied, denied and moved the offenders around, hiding them. They didn’t spend billions on legal fees.

And to be perfectly clear in case I wasn’t, the church has a helluva a lot more to do. As for “oh sure it hasn’t actually stopped”, I bet it hasn’t, because human beings are still involved.

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1 hour ago, Fragile Bird said:

If that was directed at me, I said they didn’t spend billions covering up. That billions have been paid out is obvious. They denied, denied, denied and moved the offenders around, hiding them. They didn’t spend billions on legal fees.

And to be perfectly clear in case I wasn’t, the church has a helluva a lot more to do. As for “oh sure it hasn’t actually stopped”, I bet it hasn’t, because human beings are still involved.

To the first bold, frankly we don't know how much was spent on coverups - that's their nature. Drawing this line between coverups and payouts to victims as if it is meaningful is pretty gross if one steps back to think what their donations are spent on. I wouldn't give a penny* to an organization that aided, abetted, and covered up the sexual abuse of minors across the world. Not to mention the anti- LGBTQ+ and misogyny advocacy.

To the second, this is an extremely troubling cop out that could be used to excuse any individual bad behavior by any group while ignoring the structural biases, values, and improper power that allows far greater incidence of abuse, protection from abuse, and lack of accountability than the average citizen. It's opaque structure essentially ensures it will continue, to a degree, and that real change will never happen. Enormous changes are required - are a likely impossible without full revolutionary changes - to change the culture and practices.

*Compulsory taxes aside

Edited by Week

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All organized religion is in decline, especially in the west.  This isn’t unique to the Catholic church.

(disclosure: I’m an atheist who was raised Catholic and who has attended Presbyterian church services semi regularly for the past 20 years; so an ecumenical cynic)

The Catholic church has always been designed for superstitious peasants and authoritarian reactionaries, but it used to also contain a lot of social conformists until it became acceptable to opt out.  The Evangelical movement competes for those same bent knees (or raised palms) in the US, but the RCC has a pretty big head start with some very large ethnic groups around the world.  Perhaps their bigger problem is that the secularization of the west, and Evangelical prominence in the US, leaves the RCC with a relatively poorer customer base and lower social/policy influence.

They’ve definitely lost some moral authority over cover-ups of sex abuse, but this is the same organization that spent centuries brutally oppressing heretics, forcibly converting native peoples, torturing dissidents, and fomenting sectarian wars — and yet they still kept hundreds of millions of adherents.  By their standards, sheltering pedophile rapists is a historic improvement on the level of misery and hypocrisy they’ve produced.  

Edited by Iskaral Pust

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1 minute ago, Iskaral Pust said:

They’ve definitely lost some moral authority over cover-ups of sex abuse, but this is the same organization that spent centuries brutally oppressing heretics, forcibly converting native peoples, torturing dissidents, and fomenting sectarian wars — and yet they still kept hundreds of millions of adherents.  By their standards, sheltering pedophile rapists is a historic improvement on the level of misery and hypocrisy they’ve produced.  

In truth, everyone should expect the Spanish Inquisition. It's been the Catholic Church's MO since it's founding. :P

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2 minutes ago, Week said:

To the first bold, frankly we don't know how much was spent on coverups - that's their nature. Drawing this line between coverups and payouts to victims as if it is meaningful is pretty gross if one steps back to think what their donations are spent on. I wouldn't give a penny* to an organization that aided and abetted the sexual abuse of minors across the world.

To the second, this is an extremely troubling cop out that could be used to excuse any individual bad behavior by any group while ignoring the structural biases, values, and improper power that allows far greater incidence of abuse, protection from abuse, and lack of accountability than the average citizen. It's opaque structure essentially ensures it will continue, to a degree, and that real change will never happen. Enormous changes are required - are a likely impossible without full revolutionary changes - to change the culture and practices.

*Compulsory taxes aside

I hate to tell you this, but if you donate money to any organization you’ve likely contributed to an organization that covered up sexual abuse. It’s in the nature of men to protect their empires. Support the Boy Scouts? They denied sexual abuse. Go to any school where you paid tuition? Sexual abuse, discrimination based on any and every category. Served in the military? Holy shit, you bloody criminal. Let’s not even talk about where your taxes at every level went to.

Human beings suck.

One thing that gets people angry with organized religion is when a religious group says they can forgive someone. The idea that Trump could be forgiven just because he said he had changed when obviously he hadn’t is a good example. Catholics and I guess some Anglicans have the sacrament of confession, and I think after listening to the sins of parishioners and then telling them to do penance and telling them God will forgive them, priests were too forgiving of themselves. Penance is part of the forgiveness, and changing your ways, though people come back and confess the same sins over and over, because we are human after all. The big mistake was thinking a confessed criminal behavior by a priest didn’t have to be reported, because a priest wouldn’t report a parishioner either, though they would encourage them to report themselves to the police. It was about bloody time the Pope laid down the law on that.

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8 minutes ago, Fragile Bird said:

I hate to tell you this, but if you donate money to any organization you’ve likely contributed to an organization that covered up sexual abuse. It’s in the nature of men to protect their empires. Support the Boy Scouts? They denied sexual abuse. Go to any school where you paid tuition? Sexual abuse, discrimination based on any and every category. Served in the military? Holy shit, you bloody criminal. Let’s not even talk about where your taxes at every level went to.

From before I was talking about the fact this has been going on around the world for a long time. The amount spent covering things up is incalculable on top of the settlement payments, and like IP said that’s just one facet of the Church’s many crimes over the century. But to this point, sure, but have they been claiming to be moral authorities like the RCC has? The hypocrisy is staggering.

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