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By Odin's Beard

The White Worm

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4 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

Yes, I believe what I’m saying to be fact.

And yet he says “once” in reference to being a member of the watch?

this clearly implies he is no longer.

and he isn’t dead… and he isn’t at his post… so he has broken his oath. “No man is more dangerous”, Ned told Bran in his very first chapter, the first chapter of the whole series. 

The monsters cannot pass so long as the Wall stands and the men of the Night's Watch stay true, that's what Old Nan used to say. 

This is not possible, the three eyed crow discusses the difference between having literal bird wings and metaphorical ones in Bran’s falling dream… it knows it appears as a crow.

it is evidence. Part of a huge pile.

Did you ever hear the children’s story, “are you my mother?”

It’s not much of a leap to see a pattern, especially when the non-response was so highlighted for us by Bran’s doubts right there on the page in both cases.

Because it isn’t used that way enough already in the series? Honestly, this doesn’t make sense… yes we know wildlings call nights watchmen crows.

Better question, can Bloodraven even talk through dreams? I mean, he says he wasn’t able to reach his siblings, and the brooding Weirwood struggled to speak in Bran’s dreams, and Bloodraven says he “saw” Bran, and “watched” bran, but somehow forgot the whole speaking thing along with appearing as a crow?

Maybe the author is trying to convey something? Lol

This makes no sense to me. 
Bran knows he’s a tree when he dreams of being a tree. He knows he’s a wolf when he dreams he’s being a wolf. The crow knows it has wings when speaking to Bran in his dream…

but you think Bloodraven is just oblivious? 

Literally makes no sense.

Bloodraven only has one physical eye.

When Bran appears to Jon as a Weirwood he has three eyes. His two normal eyes and a third in his forehead.

If you mean “makes sense” or “consistent” when you say “overly literal” then sure… one plus one is two.

Although, this story is full of overly literal, joke is on the reader, moments.

The crow opened its beak and cawed at him, a shrill scream of fear, and the grey mists shuddered and swirled around him and ripped away like a veil, and he saw that the crow was really a woman

Hopefully we get a new book one day and you can eat crow!

Again, for the hundredth time, this explanation doesn’t fit the text. The crow in Brans dream knows it’s a crow.

All I can do is point out what is there for anyone to see.

If you made a compelling argument you might change my mind, but obviously I doubt that will happen.

Please provide some proof then.  Your opinion or belief is not fact.

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3 hours ago, LynnS said:

Oh damn!  Now I have to confess that I belong to that small, but dubious group of readers, who thinks there's a chance that BR isn't the 3EC;  but accepts that he could be someone from the NW.

Oh, I also acknowledge that there's a "chance".  I just believe it to be vanishingly small.  But, of course, the only way we're ever going to know for sure is getting it directly from the author.

Quote

The crow pecks at Bran's third eye:

Yes, the Three-Eyed Crow very much wants to help Bran "open his third eye".

Quote

Would he do the same for Bran, save his life if necessary?  For reasons, I am keeping options open on this one until we learn more about Jon and what he becomes in the next book

Interesting but, again, until I hear it directly from the author himself I will continue to believe my own interpretation of what's going on in the story and concerning the identity and purposes of the Three-Eyed Crow.  What I won't do is present my opinions as fact or canon before they actually are.  It's quite refreshing that you also don't seem to present your opinions or theories as fact (at least, not here.  I can't claim to have read everything you've ever posted).:thumbsup:

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3 minutes ago, Prince of the North said:

Interesting but, again, until I hear it directly from the author himself I will continue to believe my own interpretation of what's going on in the story and concerning the identity and purposes of the Three-Eyed Crow.  What I won't do is present my opinions as fact or canon before they actually are.  It's quite refreshing that you also don't seem to present your opinions or theories as fact (at least, not here.  I can't claim to have read everything you've ever posted).:thumbsup:

So you are not going to even acknowledge that George ripped off the entire Bloodraven's cave plot from the Whisperer in Darkness?  Bloodraven is dead and his corpse is being animated by the weirwood to ensnare Bran.

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3 minutes ago, By Odin's Beard said:

So you are not going to even acknowledge that George ripped off the entire Bloodraven's cave plot from the Whisperer in Darkness?  Bloodraven is dead and his corpse is being animated by the weirwood to ensnare Bran.

When did I ever even comment on this before?  Do you want my opinion of this contention?

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Just now, Prince of the North said:

When did I ever even comment on this before?  Do you want my opinion of this contention?

My point was that you didn't comment on it, you skipped right over it.  It provides some pretty good evidence that the cave is a trap, and Bran is being deceived, with nearly a scene by scene parallel.  Akeley is described an inert and corpse-like about 10 times, as is Bloodraven.  The person Bran thinks is Bloodraven is actually dead, and he is speaking to an imposter/the weirwood network puppeting a corpse.  The whole journey north to the cave is swirling with deception and misdirection, with Meera pointing out they are walking in circles, and whenever anyone asks Coldhands, Leaf, or Bloodraven about the personage of the 3-eyed crow they act confused.

 

"He said, aye. He said he would take us to this three-eyed crow too. That river we crossed this morning is the same one we crossed four days ago, I swear. We're going in circles."

 

"Who sent you? Who is this three-eyed crow?"
"A friend. Dreamer, wizard, call him what you will. The last greenseer."  [Coldhands has never heard the title of three-eyed crow]

 

"Are you the three-eyed crow?" . . .
"A … crow?"  "Once, aye. Black of garb and black of blood."  [Bloodraven is confused at the question, doesn't know what Bran is asking and replies thinking Bran is asking him if he was in the Nights Watch]
 
"And the whisperer in darkness.
The last greenseer, the singers called him, but in Bran's dreams he was still a three-eyed crow."   [The CoTF don't know the title of the three-eyed crow, they call him "the last greenseer"  Immediately before stating this George brings up the Whisperer in Darkness which, if you got the reference should have really raised your suspicions that he is an imposter.  Also, Bran is still being visited by the 3ec even in the cave]
 

The cave is described as a mouth with fangs that is going to eat Bran.  And the last scene his friends are mysteriously absent. 

 

Also, I think the wights outside the cave were there to chase the company into the cave and keep them there rather than to keep them out of it.

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8 hours ago, Prince of the North said:

It's quite refreshing that you also don't seem to present your opinions or theories as fact (at least, not here.  I can't claim to have read everything you've ever posted).:thumbsup:

With everything I say, Heisenberg uncertainty principles apply.  :D

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Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, Prince of the North said:

So you are not going to even acknowledge that George ripped off the entire Bloodraven's cave plot from the Whisperer in Darkness?  Bloodraven is dead and his corpse is being animated by the weirwood to ensnare Bran.

I wouldn't go so far as to say that Martin is ripping off these others stories.  Otherwise we will have to say that anyone who has ever written a vampire story is ripping off Bram Stoker.  There is a big difference in the original Dracula and The Vampire Lestat, for example.  The most we can say is that these stories with similar concepts constitute a genre.  It's interesting to look at influences and similarities; but I wouldn't say these are exact blueprints.  Martin is still telling a different story.

A Song of Ice and Fire / Shout Out - TV Tropes

Edited by LynnS

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Posted (edited)
13 hours ago, Prince of the North said:

Please provide some proof then.  Your opinion or belief is not fact.

Evidence, what I present is evidence, and there is a lot.

That Bloodraven is not the Three Eyed Crow is right up there with R+L=J in theories that I consider fact.

You disagree, awesome! That's why people are on forums like this, to discuss ideas and interpretations. But, to be taken seriously, you need evidence of your own, or at least a compelling argument.

Leaning on nonsense like the crow not knowing it is a crow when it talks about it's own wings in the very first dream sequence is not believable, as it is inconsistent with the text.

I present as fact what I believe to be fact, which is all anyone can do. Apologies if a lack of equivocation on my part is somehow perceived as a fault by you.

Edited by Mourning Star

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20 hours ago, By Odin's Beard said:

Craobh means tree in gaelic.  so the Whisperer in Darkness is a crab/tree that kills someone, steals his brain and identity, and tries to lure someone in to steal their brain also.  Bloodraven is dead, and the weirwood is animating his corpse to manipulate Bran and entrap him.

Very nice catch. This helps to explain the whole subplot about Ser Clarence Crabb and Crack Claw Point and The Whispers. (Recap: Ser Clarence is a legendary figure who carries the heads of defeated foes back to his ancestral home where his woods witch wife reanimates the heads and lines them up on shelves so they can serve as advisors to Ser Clarence.)

Brienne suspects that Dick Crabb is a deserter, which I take as an anagram of "red trees." 

Dick tells Brienne that, "We're all good dragon men, up Crackclaw way" (Feast, Brienne IV). I'm told that dragons and worms are often equivalent (in literary symbolism). 

As in your story, Dick Crabb lures Shagwell, Timeon and Pyg to The Whispers, telling them (falsely) they will be able to catch a ship to Essos from there. 

When Brienne and Dick arrive, Shagwell drops down from a weirwood tree.

During Tyrion's visit at Castle Black, the higher officers enjoy a feast of fresh crab, delivered in barrels of snow from Eastwatch. I wondered why Aliser Thorne declined to eat the crab - maybe he is the one guy who fails to fall for the "whispers" of the crabs and will be able to resist a crab / weirwood takeover in the climax of the story. 

I'm also thinking of Davos eating crab stew (Sister Stew) when he passes through the Sister Islands. I had previously assumed this was like Bran eating weirwood paste in Bloodraven's cave. Maybe it is similar but Davos has immunity because he grew up in Flea Bottom and has eaten bowls of Brown? The only character we know has eaten Brown is Arya, but I inferred that Davos must have also eaten it during his childhood. 

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4 minutes ago, Seams said:

Very nice catch. This helps to explain the whole subplot about Ser Clarence Crabb and Crack Claw Point and The Whispers. (Recap: Ser Clarence is a legendary figure who carries the heads of defeated foes back to his ancestral home where his woods witch wife reanimates the heads and lines them up on shelves so they can serve as advisors to Ser Clarence.)

Brienne suspects that Dick Crabb is a deserter, which I take as an anagram of "red trees." 

Dick tells Brienne that, "We're all good dragon men, up Crackclaw way" (Feast, Brienne IV). I'm told that dragons and worms are often equivalent (in literary symbolism). 

As in your story, Dick Crabb lures Shagwell, Timeon and Pyg to The Whispers, telling them (falsely) they will be able to catch a ship to Essos from there. 

When Brienne and Dick arrive, Shagwell drops down from a weirwood tree.

During Tyrion's visit at Castle Black, the higher officers enjoy a feast of fresh crab, delivered in barrels of snow from Eastwatch. I wondered why Aliser Thorne declined to eat the crab - maybe he is the one guy who fails to fall for the "whispers" of the crabs and will be able to resist a crab / weirwood takeover in the climax of the story. 

I'm also thinking of Davos eating crab stew (Sister Stew) when he passes through the Sister Islands. I had previously assumed this was like Bran eating weirwood paste in Bloodraven's cave. Maybe it is similar but Davos has immunity because he grew up in Flea Bottom and has eaten bowls of Brown? The only character we know has eaten Brown is Arya, but I inferred that Davos must have also eaten it during his childhood. 

I wonder how crab=tree would apply to

Quote

Under the sea the mermen feast on starfish soup, and all the serving men are crabs

 

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15 minutes ago, Seams said:

Very nice catch. This helps to explain the whole subplot about Ser Clarence Crabb and Crack Claw Point and The Whispers. (Recap: Ser Clarence is a legendary figure who carries the heads of defeated foes back to his ancestral home where his woods witch wife reanimates the heads and lines them up on shelves so they can serve as advisors to Ser Clarence.)

[Repost from last year]

The people of Crackclaw Point seem to be a parallel of the CoTF, they are bog people, who resisted being conquered, who hid out in caverns in the hills, and they "water their trees with blood."

Their pine trees are watered with blood and their folk hero is "Ser Clarence Crabb, . . He was eight foot tall, and so strong he could uproot pine trees with one hand and chuck them half a mile. No horse could bear his weight, so he rode an aurochs."

In gaelic, clair means "wooden stave" and two words beginning with "clair" mean "releasing / separating / dividing" and claraidn means "floating"  and craobh means "tree" and "to shoot out / propagate"

So Clarence Crabb is a tree that is divided, released, and floats in order to shoot out and propagate, and he was said to uproot trees and chuck them.

Clarence Crabb rode an aurochs--a bull. bole sounds like bull, and the white bole is the white bull--the white tree.  And indeed, in Middle English, bull was spelled bole--in Chaucer the constellation Taurus was called the Whyte Bole--so a celestial bull is the white bole.  And Clarence Crabb chucked a tree and rode a bole.

There is a similar parallel between towers and bulls, tor means tower, and taur means bull, and in the Middle English dictionary tor means bull/bole.  tor/taur/bole/bull

 

(And in Lovecraft, the bholes are gigantic white worms that that live in tunnels underground, and the magical enchanted tree that the zuggs live under came from a seed that fell from outer space.)

 

"Crackbones fought a dragon too, but he didn't need no magic sword. He just tied its neck in a knot, so every time it breathed fire it roasted its own arse."

The Red Comet is called a dragon, and if it is a weirwood rocket, a dragon roasting its own arse is an accurate description of a rocket launch.

(George used arse, and in gaelic airsear means "archer" and "devil")

And they mention magical bloody swords in this conversation, which sounds like a comet to me. 

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16 hours ago, By Odin's Beard said:

My point was that you didn't comment on it, you skipped right over it.  It provides some pretty good evidence that the cave is a trap, and Bran is being deceived, with nearly a scene by scene parallel. [snipped for length]

I don't really have much of an opinion about it at all.  That's why I didn't comment on it.  But, since you asked and judging by the info you've provided (because I'm not familiar with your source), it does seem there are similarities.  Now, whether those similarities end up meaning anything remain to be seen?  That's my opinion of it for now:) 

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8 hours ago, LynnS said:

I wouldn't go so far as to say that Martin is ripping off these others stories.  Otherwise we will have to say that anyone who has ever written a vampire story is ripping off Bram Stoker.  There is a big difference in the original Dracula and The Vampire Lestat, for example.  The most we can say is that these stories with similar concepts constitute a genre.  It's interesting to look at influences and similarities; but I wouldn't say these are exact blueprints.  Martin is still telling a different story.

A Song of Ice and Fire / Shout Out - TV Tropes

Not that it matters very much but, for the record, that is not my quote:)

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Just now, Prince of the North said:

I don't really have much of an opinion about it at all.  That's why I didn't comment on it.  But, since you asked and judging by the info you've provided (because I'm not familiar with your source), it does seem there are similarities.  Now, whether those similarities end up meaning anything remain to be seen?  That's my opinion of it for now:) 

Here is the audiobook of The Whisperer in Darkness, I recommend everyone in this thread should listen to it.  I have listened to it over 30 times so far, it is one of Lovecraft's best stories.

It includes fungi/crabs/trees who launch themselves into space--callback to Clarence Crabb.

Crabs who hijacked the Black Planet Yuggoth (recall that uigean means "fugitive, lonely traveler" in Gaelic, and yog means "conjunction of planets" in hindi)  (dark star/stranger/lion of night) to travel around the universe

The movie Dark Star [1973] is one of George's favorite movies, and the titular spaceship Dark Star destroys planets, which George Lucas ripped off big time for Star Wars with the death star.

 

One of the plots of Whisperer is that the crabs will direct thought currents to our astronomers so that they might discover Yuggoth with their telescopes, and Maester Luwin is mentioned 3 times as observing some sort of "shadow" in the sky with his telescope:

"The maester was peering through his big Myrish lens tube, measuring shadows and noting the position of the comet that hung low in the morning sky."

"the bronze Myrish lens tube sat on a tripod by the terrace door, star charts hung from the walls, shadow maps lay scattered among the rushes"

Luwin was mapping something called the Shadow--that can be seen from Winterfell with a telescope, and using star charts to do so, indicating that it is moving and being mapped relative to stars, and it was causing him consternation.

"He saw Maester Luwin on his balcony, studying the sky through a polished bronze tube and frowning as he made notes in a book" 

That is from one of Bran's falling dreams when he also sees the Shadow of the Mountain eclipsing the sun. 

 

Luwin was mapping is the old "second moon" from Qartheen Legend, and it is the Shadow Moon /  Lion of Night from Yi-ti that caused the Long Night, and it is the Stranger from the Faith of the Seven.  It is the god of death--the black unknowable wanderer (planet) from far places.  It is a totally black "planet" that is wandering in our solar system (I actually think there are two black planets, one very near by and one closer to the sun).

In gaelic, luan or luain [ link 1, link 2 link 3 ] means "moon" and "doomsday" and "wanderer" and "astronomer" is right above luan.

 

Bran was Luwin's pupil, and in his cave chapters the phrase "the moon was a black hole in the sky" is used twice.

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Forgot to add that in the maps in the World of Ice and Fire all have that little glyph in the shape of a bell, with a partially visible (eclipsed) black circle, and a goats horn/cornucopia (black goat), and a symbolic depiction of a shadow.  I think this is the Maester's way of indicating that the Shadow Moon is visible from that location. (several of those maps have additional glyphs that also seem to be depicting eclipses) and the map of Dorne has three glyphs that indicate where a water-well is, the glyph is a cauldron casting a shadow, (reference to Bran's Cauldron eclipsing the sun and bringing the dead back to life) 

And the Dorne map has several watermarks from cups that look like eclipses.

And the map of Dorne has a planet-sized black crow eclipsing the sun.

One of the gods of death Arya sees in the House of Black and White is a huge stone face, half seen through the gloom, and others are the Lion of Night, and the Stranger, and another is the Black Goat--they are all referring to the same celestial object.

From Lovecraft's story, the Tree on the Hill, it is mentioned that the Black Goat is a "shadow" that came from interstellar space and will cause an endless night on Earth were demons will torture and kill humans, and it can be controlled with a magic gem (like the Bloodstone).

 

 

Jack Vance's Eyes of the Overworld is one of George's favorite books and on page 126 we get this line:  "The elder pointed toward the sky. 'If you had the eyes of a nocturnal titvit you might note a dark moon which reels around the earth, and which cannot be seen except when it casts its shadow upon the sun.  The Winged Beings are denizens of this dark world and their ultimate nature is unknown.' "

There is a black planet that circles the Earth and can only be seen when it eclipses the sun, and predatory dragons came from this dark moon.  The dark moon is not native to Earth because it is only there for a certain period of years and then it is gone, so presumably it has some way of moving around the solar system on its own.  This is the Qartheen Moon myth.

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1 hour ago, By Odin's Beard said:

[Repost from last year]

The people of Crackclaw Point seem to be a parallel of the CoTF, they are bog people, who resisted being conquered, who hid out in caverns in the hills, and they "water their trees with blood."

Their pine trees are watered with blood and their folk hero is "Ser Clarence Crabb, . . He was eight foot tall, and so strong he could uproot pine trees with one hand and chuck them half a mile. No horse could bear his weight, so he rode an aurochs."

In gaelic, clair means "wooden stave" and two words beginning with "clair" mean "releasing / separating / dividing" and claraidn means "floating"  and craobh means "tree" and "to shoot out / propagate"

So Clarence Crabb is a tree that is divided, released, and floats in order to shoot out and propagate, and he was said to uproot trees and chuck them.

Clarence Crabb rode an aurochs--a bull. bole sounds like bull, and the white bole is the white bull--the white tree.  And indeed, in Middle English, bull was spelled bole--in Chaucer the constellation Taurus was called the Whyte Bole--so a celestial bull is the white bole.  And Clarence Crabb chucked a tree and rode a bole.

There is a similar parallel between towers and bulls, tor means tower, and taur means bull, and in the Middle English dictionary tor means bull/bole.  tor/taur/bole/bull

 

(And in Lovecraft, the bholes are gigantic white worms that that live in tunnels underground, and the magical enchanted tree that the zuggs live under came from a seed that fell from outer space.)

 

"Crackbones fought a dragon too, but he didn't need no magic sword. He just tied its neck in a knot, so every time it breathed fire it roasted its own arse."

The Red Comet is called a dragon, and if it is a weirwood rocket, a dragon roasting its own arse is an accurate description of a rocket launch.

(George used arse, and in gaelic airsear means "archer" and "devil")

And they mention magical bloody swords in this conversation, which sounds like a comet to me. 

Fantastic stuff!

I would add that that the apple being the fruit of the tree of knowledge in Christian mythology is well known, but apples also play an important role in classic greek and norse myth as the food of immortality, in the story of Bran the Blessed of Irish Mythology, and King Arthur (Avallon is the Isle of Apples).

Now that you are pointing out the Clarence Crabb and Crab stew connections to the tree, it does make me wonder if there is a crab apple connection!

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3 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

Evidence, what I present is evidence, and there is a lot.

And I provided my interpretation and opinion on why I think that Bloodraven is TEC (which is pretty common in these parts, of course).  But I'll say again, interpretations and opinions are not fact and they're not necessarily even much evidence really.  What you're presenting as evidence is not, in fact, proof in any way.  It's just your interpretation and opinion that you nonetheless consider fact.  And I'll continue to call that out forever when anyone does it (when I feel like it).

Quote

That Bloodraven is not the Three Eyed Crow is right up there with R+L=J in theories that I consider fact.

Great!  It should be easy to provide actual proof then beyond your own very strongly-held opinion.  If you can't, stop presenting your opinion as fact.

Quote

Leaning on nonsense like the crow not knowing it is a crow when it talks about it's own wings in the very first dream sequence is not believable, as it is inconsistent with the text.

It's not nonsense simply because you say it is.  Actually, your interpretation of that dream sequence is just more confirmation bias  nonsense on your part.  Nowhere does the TEC actually make a differentiation between "real" wings and "non-real" wings.  Also, nowhere in that dream sequence does the TEC talk about being a crow in any way.  Here, I'll provide the book quote for those who care to read it and make up their own mind:

From AGoT, chapter 17 (Bran):

Quote

The ground was so far below him he could barely make it out through the grey mists that whirled around him, but he could feel how fast he was falling, and he knew what was waiting for him down there. Even in dreams, you could not fall forever. He would wake up in the instant before he hit the ground, he knew. You always woke up in the instant before you hit the ground.

And if you don’t? the voice asked.

The ground was closer now, still far far away, a thousand miles away, but closer than it had been. It was cold here in the darkness. There was no sun, no stars, only the ground below coming up to smash him, and the grey mists, and the whispering voice. He wanted to cry.

Not cry. Fly.

“I can’t fly,” Bran said. “I can’t, I can’t . . .

”How do you know? Have you ever tried? The voice was high and thin.

Bran looked around to see where it was coming from. A crow was spiraling down with him, just out of reach, following him as he fell. “Help me,” he said.

I’m trying, the crow replied. Say, got any corn?

Bran reached into his pocket as the darkness spun dizzily around him. When he pulled his hand out, golden kernels slid from between his fingers into the air. They fell with him. The crow landed on his hand and began to eat.

“Are you really a crow?” Bran asked.

Are you really falling? the crow asked back.

“It’s just a dream,” Bran said.

Is it? asked the crow.

“I’ll wake up when I hit the ground,” Bran told the bird.

You’ll die when you hit the ground, the crow said. It went back to eating corn.

Bran looked down. He could see mountains now, their peaks white with snow, and the silver thread of rivers in dark woods. He closed his eyes and began to cry.

That won’t do any good, the crow said. I told you, the answer is flying, not crying. How hard can it be? I’m doing it. The crow took to the air and flapped around Bran’s hand.

“You have wings,” Bran pointed out.

Maybe you do too.

Bran felt along his shoulders, groping for feathers.

There are different kinds of wings, the crow said.

Bran was staring at his arms, his legs. He was so skinny, just skin stretched taut over bones. Had he always been so thin? He tried to remember. A face swam up at him out of the grey mist, shining with light, golden. “The things I do for love,” it said.

Bran screamed.

The crow took to the air, cawing. Not that, it shrieked at him. Forget that, you do not need it now, put it aside, put it away. It landed on Bran’s shoulder, and pecked at him, and the shining golden face was gone.

Bran was falling faster than ever. The grey mists howled around him as he plunged toward the earth below. “What are you doing to me?” he asked the crow, tearful.

Teaching you how to fly.

“I can’t fly!”

You’re flying right now.

“I’m falling!”

Every flight begins with a fall, the crow said. Look down.

So, um, yeah, nowhere in that sequence does the TEC "talk about it's own wings".  I say you're reading into it what you want to read into it.  You're working backwards from the conclusion you want.  Talk about nonsense:rolleyes:  So, I'll say it again: Bloodraven doesn't know how he appears to Bran in his dreams/visions.  And that rather common belief/interpretation around here is every bit as legitimate as yours.  But you insist on presenting your opinion as being correct and everyone else is wrong - yet you can't prove it.

Quote

I present as fact what I believe to be fact, which is all anyone can do. Apologies if a lack of equivocation on my part is somehow perceived as a fault by you.

And that is illogical nonsense.  What you believe is not fact simply by virtue of being what you believe.  And, yes, I do perceive your presenting your highly biased (in my opinion) opinions and interpretations as fact as worthy of being called out as such. 

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35 minutes ago, By Odin's Beard said:

Here is the audiobook of The Whisperer in Darkness, I recommend everyone in this thread should listen to it.  I have listened to it over 30 times so far, it is one of Lovecraft's best stories. [snipped for length]

Thanks for the link! :)

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Posted (edited)
46 minutes ago, Prince of the North said:

It's not nonsense simply because you say it is.  Actually, your interpretation of that dream sequence is just more confirmation bias  nonsense on your part.  Nowhere does the TEC actually make a differentiation between "real" wings and "non-real" wings

Come on... be more honest:

"You have wings," Bran pointed out.
Maybe you do too.
Bran felt along his shoulders, groping for feathers.
There are different kinds of wings, the crow said.

The Crow knows it has wings with feathers, it knows how it appears, and stating that there are "different kinds of wings" is literally differentiating between types of wings. Even if you want to argue that the crow is talking about some non-feathered wing, it still requires that the crow knows it has feathered wings itself, aka how it appears in the dream!

It is completely disingenuous to suggest otherwise.

“Are you really a crow?” Bran asked.

46 minutes ago, Prince of the North said:

So, um, yeah, nowhere in that sequence does the TEC "talk about it's own wings"

I mean... you even quoted it... 

It is a fact that the crow knows it was a crow in the falling dream. Bran calls it a crow and the crow references different types of wings.

And, it's a fact that Bloodraven didn't know what Bran meant when asked directly if he was the three eyed crow.

So, Bloodraven isn't the crow from Bran's dream, fact.

It really is that simple, even though there is a mountain of other corroborating evidence and symbolism which supports this conclusion.

Edited by Mourning Star

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