The White Worm

[MaesterSam]

42 minutes ago, By Odin's Beard said:

This theory grew out of Lml's.  The Second Moon causes the Long Night eclipse, and the Red Comet knocks it out of eclipse and brings the Dawn, hence the Red Comet is Lightbringer / Dawn.  And shards of the "moon" did fall to Earth, but they were not the cause of the Long Night, the generation-long eclipse was.

The story of Oberon and the Mountain is a retelling of the story: Mountain eclipses the sun, is speared by Oberon's leafy ash spear, and is knocked out of eclipse and pinned to the Earth.  The Mountain dies, but his headless corpse is reanimated as Robert Strong.  (only the 'head" of the second moon was knocked off)

The Second Moon is still hanging around over Asshai, which is what is messing up the tilt of the Earth and causing the weird seasons, and that is why the nights are so dark there, and the land is being poisoned, and the Ghost Grass lives under the Shadow, (and the Ghost Grass are a metaphor for the Others)

Well damn, that makes way too much sense. The moon was cracked but not destroyed, just knocked out of orbit (or out of eclipse) but it's not gone... 

I have so many questions but I'll check out your other thread which probably answers most of them! I feel like a kid at Christmas with all these new ideas, lol!  I hadn't been on the forums in a couple of years because it had been so long since I came across anything truly new and it seemed most of us were just talking in circles about the same things... But all of this is brand new to me and I love looking at this story from a different angle!  

[MaesterSam]

1 hour ago, Mourning Star said:

Obviously, I agree, and tried my best to make a simple straightforward case, but yes that's another reason to believe the crow knows it's a crow.

I'm not interested in continuing the back and forth, as it doesn't seem productive. I just think that the oddly widespread view that Bloodraven is the three eyed crow holds back a lot of interesting discussion and analysis of the series, and I wish the community would move past that question. Then again I hold many views which other readers might find heretical, and haven't given up on questions like "who sent the catspaw to kill Bran?" So, to each their own!

Anyway, cheers!

Have you visited the Heresy threads by Black Crow? They welcome out-of-the-box thinking and I remember past discussions about just these topics - who is the 3EC and what's going on with the catspaw. I agree these are super interesting questions that should be discussed! Many believe that Joffrey sent the catspaw but I don't believe this was ever confirmed. Cersei suspects it but it doesn't really make much sense IMO. Who was this man who was sleeping in the stables and was willing to risk his life well after Joffrey had left Winterfell? It's not like he would have come back and demanded a refund. And who set the library on fire as a distraction? Joffrey is not exactly clever, and he also had no reason to want to kill Bran. IIRC Cersei assumes he did it to impress Robert, but if that were the case why would he keep it a secret? 

It seems more likely to me that Jojen wasn't the only one to see the winged wolf in chains in a vision, and someone decided to prevent him from fulfilling his destiny. A bit like MMD killed Rhaego so that he wouldn't burn cities. Hopefully one day we'll find out who it was.

[Fun Guy from Yuggoth]

[Repost of something I wrote in 2019]

I just picked up Carl Sagan's book Comet, and was flipping through it and found this passage:

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The Sun has a Dark Sister.  Long ago, before even great grandmother's time, the two suns danced together in the sky.  But the Dark One was jealous that her sister was so much brighter, and in her rage she cursed us for not loving her, and loosed comets upon the world.  A terrible winter came, and darkness fell and bitter cold, and almost every living thing perished.  After many seasons, the Bright Sister returned to her children, and it was warm and light once more, and life was renewed.  But the Dark Sister is not dead.  She is only hiding.  One day she will return.

This was in a discussion about the possibility of a Dark Star/ dark planet (a "death star" or "Nemesis" or "Shiva the Destroyer") in the solar system that has a very long orbit and would periodically cause mass extinctions by causing gravitational disturbances and sending comets in our direction--and that the Dark Star got turned into a mythological character by primitive humans.  This is a very close parallel to the Long Night/Lion of Night/Lightbringer/Qaartheen moon mythologies.  A dark star ( or black planet) mythologized as a god of death (as with the Stranger, and the Lion of Night, etc) that is accompanied by comets and brings a terrible winter and darkness where everything dies.  The dark star retreated, but will return to bring the Long Night again. 

In chapter 14 "Scattered Fires and Shattered Worlds" there is a poem by Lord Byron about a comet splitting a planet, and a painting of a comet during an eclipse that looks like it is about the hit the eclipsing moon (but the comet shatters).  This parallels the Lightbringer/red comet knocking the dark star out of eclipse, and Lightbringer leaving a crack across the face of the moon, and the Second moon splitting from getting too close to the sun and dragons falling to Earth. 

 

On page 177 a red comet is mentioned; that if Chiron was thrown out of its current orbit and towards Earth it would be a huge red comet:

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as Chiron approached the Sun.  A very dark comet, perhaps perceptibly red, hundreds of kilometers across, with multiple dust fountains and an immense tail, would be quite a spectacle as it  passed by the Earth . . .

Imagine the sky dominated by a dull, red irregular object, spitting out white canopies, its shimmering, curved fountains, flowing into space, and all the material eventually swept back into a vast tail that extends from horizon to horizon, it would be a memorable event.

Except for an approach to the Earth from an unlikely sector of the sky, the comet would be seen by cultures all over the world.  Surely there would be a mythological framework--sometimes called a world view--into which this apparition would be fitted.  People would naturally think the display held some portent or significance for them.  Some cometary form should therefore have entered the art of the many cultures, perhaps even in a central way.  As time passed, the memory of the true events might fade, and the stories become vaguer, but the cometary form would still be a dominant motif in the art and records of the previous generations.  If we saw such an apparition, and believed it was a message for us, we would not be disposed to ignore it.  After thousands of years pass, the cometary symbol, whatever it was, might be wholly disconnected from its bizarre and awesome origins.  In a prescientific, preliterate society, accounts of an unprecedented occurrence involving uncommon physics must necessarily, after thousands of years, take on lives of their own. 

A huge red and white comet being turned into mythological object, and people forget that it is even a comet that their mythology refers to, Lightbringer is the Red Comet, and the religion of R'hllor is worshiping a comet that ends the Long Night.  In mythology the comet got turned into an literal sword. (chiron means "hand" and he was an immortal centaur in greek mythology that was a child of Cronos--time, and was fostered by the sun god Apollo)  Chiron as a comet would be the Fiery Hand.  The Fiery Hand of R'hllor.

Then on the next page he mentions a comet splitting in half. 

On page 33 it shows a comet passing through constellations, and I have been saying that the 3 forgings of Lightbringer were three comets passing through constellations of the zodiac: Aquarius, Leo, and Virgo, and that they are being launched from Mars, (and I just learned today that in gaelic Mairt means "the god and planet Mars" and Mairtin is how you spell "Martin" in gaelic).  Azor Ahai was a swordsmith, and Mars is the Smith that makes "swords".  Davos prays to the Smith when launching a ship.  The astronomical glyph for Mars is a circle with an arrow pointing away from it--like it is launching something.  The emblem of the Smith is a hammer, and comets/asteroids are "hammers".  Mars is red because it is covered with weirwoods.  In Sagan's imagining, Chiron was a red planet that turned into a comet. 

On page 22 he mentions comets moving through the zodiac, and summarizes Aristotle's views on comets, Aristotle believed that comets and shooting stars originated from Earth--that they were something that got expelled from the surface and burst into flames in the atmosphere--"exhalations from the interior of the Earth rising to the stars."   (and I think Hardhome was a weirwood launch event, the sun rising in the North)

He also talks about trees growing out of comets.  As well as comets bringing life to other worlds in chapter 17.

And on page 19 there are ancient Chinese beliefs about the implications of a comet appearing in different constellations, when a comet is in Virgo "some places are flooded and there is severe famine.  People eat each other."

And on page 84 a comet is shown going through Aquarius.

 

The book has a bunch of old posters about comets, and one of them has the phrase "comet rag" over a comet and one has the word "rag" on Halley's Comet.  "rag" means "song" (as in George's Armageddon Rag, about a song that would bring about the apocalypse).  The rest of the book makes the point that comets are made of ice, but appear to be fire.  The red comet is a song of ice and fire.  And the Robert Frost poem about Ice and Fire are about ways the world could end. 

There are some historical comet depictions and two are red comets, one is a sword, and two look like tentacled things.  Chapter 10 is about what animals comets look like, many of the pictures look like starfish (asteroidea), or seastars and I have been arguing that weirwoods are a form of starfish alien.  One picture has a comet depicted as a woman with a red and white starfish-looking thing on her head. ("under the sea, women wear nennymoans in their hair", and it looks like the sun of Dorne and a comet is a sunspear).  And he talks at length about the world-wide phenomenon of swastikas possibly being inspired by a swastika-shaped comet. 

 

And the notion that comets bring plagues is discussed, and George wrote a story called Plague Star about a long-orbit "star" bringing plagues--but the star was really a massive black spaceship called the Ark. 

LmL thinks the Long Night was a kind of nuclear winter caused by the comet striking a second moon and the debris from that falling to Earth,--which pretty closely parallels the passages above--but I think the Long Night was the Dark Sister/black planet eclipsing the Sun for a generation, and the Long Night only ended when a Red Comet (the Red Sword of Heroes, lady with a monkey's tail, Eldritch shadow-chaser) knocked it out of eclipse formation, and bringing the Dawn (The sword Dawn was forged from the heart of a falling star).  It is only a minor rearranging of the details.  In LmL's theory it doesn't make sense that Lightbringer caused the Long Night, Lightbringer should end the Long Night. 

No natural phenomenon would lead a wandering black planet to be stuck in eclipse formation for a generation, so I think the Dark Star is actually something artificial, like the Ark from Plague Star, and like the black planet Yuggoth from Lovecraft, that is why the Stranger has no gender like the other planets--it is not actually a planet--"that's no moon, that's a space station"--Sagan even called the Dark Sister a "death star".

While we are on the subject of Dark Stars, the Grateful Dead song Dark Star mentions a Dark Star colliding with something, light turning to ash, and things being thrown off their axis, and a nightfall of diamonds: "Dark star crashes, pouring its light into ashes. Reason tatters, the forces tear loose from the axis."--and I think the Dark Star has sent Earth off its normal axis of rotation causing the irregular seasons, and when the Dark Star was struck by the red comet it rained dragonglass on the Earth--causing a nightfall of diamonds.

 

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Big List of black planet/dark star/eclipse imagery in ASOIAF:

Luwin was mapping the "shadow" with star charts and a telescope, and luan means "moon" and "doomsday" in gaelic;

the Stranger in the Faith of the Seven is a black wanderer (planet) from far places, unlike the other gods, ever the outcast, unknown and unknowable, "the face was a black oval, a shadow with stars for eyes";

Jaime's weirwood dream has him as the sun and Brienne as the moon both being hidden in a cave inside a gigantic lion-shaped rock, in that darkness the Others come, they are left to defend themselves with swords that look like the sword Dawn; (The Lion of Night)

In the YiTish legend, a planetary body called the Lion of Night mated with the Sun and produced the God on Earth who founded the Great Empire of the Dawn;

The Bloodstone Emperor usurped his sister and the Lion of Night (the god of death) came forth in all his wroth, and the sun turned her back on the world and the demon army came;

the Bloodstone Emperor founded Church of Starry Wisdom, who worship something in the night sky--the Lion of Night?;

The Black Pearl, Bellegere Otherys, belliger means "war bringing" in Latin--the Black Pearl brings the Others and war (and the God-on-Earth rode around in a pearl);

In Lys they worship Saagael, and in gaelic sgail means "eclipse, shadow" and Saagael is the giver of pain and demands blood sacrifice of children;

one of the gods of death in the House of Black and White is a great stone face, and the Lion of Night sits an ebony throne,--the phrase Lion of Night means "powerful ruler of night"  " Only a few candles burned this evening, flickering like fallen stars. In the darkness all the gods were strangers."

Viserys' death scene has him eclipsing the sun (Drogo) and getting a golden crown--a corona as during an eclipse, and viser means "to shade" and de rogo means "to take away" ;

the Qaartheen moon was in eclipse, and cracked, dragons poured from it, also dragons came from the Shadow.  The second moon was an egg that hatched, "dragons hatching from stone eggs" "One day the other moon will kiss the sun too, and then it will crack and the dragons will return."

Dany (the moon) smothers Drogo (sun) to death.  Drogo's funeral pyre has Dany the moon and stone eggs eclipsing the sun and cracking, and dragons hatching.--

"When the red star bleeds and the darkness gathers, Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt to wake dragons out of stone."--the first time dragons woke out of stone was when a moon cracked during eclipse;

Dark Star eclipses the sun, he is of the night, "His eyes seemed black as he sat outlined against the dying sun"

Benerro (a comet is a banner) talks about something exploding the moon and causing "doom" and "darkness"

In Bran's coma dream (comets have comas) he sees The Mountain eclipse the sun (which is Jaime) (also In Bran's coma dream he is a comet plummeting to Earth);

In the fight between Oberyn and the Mountain, the Mountain eclipses the sun then gets stabbed in his belly by a leafy wooden spear by the Red Viper, Oberyn's teeth are "splintered"--like wood;

the maps of Westeros in the world book all have pictures of a mysterious black circle in partial eclipse;

Ghost grass is a metaphor for the Others, and ghost grass lives in the Shadow Lands, and there is a Shadow over Asshai.

Stone Crows and Moon Brothers are mountain clans, the brother of the moon was a black stone?  The map of Dorne in the world book has a planet sized crow casting a shadow over Dorne;

The phrase "The moon was a black hole in the sky." from Bran's weirwood cave chapters.

"The Stranger comes, he comes, he comes, to scourge us for our sins. Prayers cannot stay his wroth, no more than tears can quench the flame of dragons. Only blood can do that. Your blood, my blood, their blood.” Then he raised the stump of his right arm, and pointed at Rhaenys’s Hill behind him, at the Dragonpit black against the stars." (something "black against the stars is called the Stranger, and it is associated with dragons)

"Jon could see the Wall looming high and dark to the south, a great shadow blocking out the stars."--Castles on the wall, Shadow Tower, Castle Black, Nightfort,

"When the long night falls, Edric Storm shall die with the rest, wherever he is hidden. Your own sons as well. Darkness and cold will cover the earth. You meddle in matters you do not understand."

"The wings of the stone dragons cast great black shadows in the light from the nightfire. "

"Certain septons have claimed that the world ends east of Mossovy, giving way to a realm of mists, then a realm of darkness, and finally a realm of storm and chaos where sea and sky become as one. . . .  past islands and continents unknown, uncharted, and undreamed of, where strange peoples worship strange gods beneath stranger stars."

 

 

[Mourning Star]

Not to hate on the dark moon theorists out there but I don't think Luwin was measuring shadows in the sky, I mean, it's not impossible, but in reality measuring shadows (and their variations), of objects with a known height, was a way to tell time with a measure of accuracy (both time of day and date), like with a sun dial, and an important tool in ancient world science, from astronomy to geography to seafaring. In fact, measuring shadows was how the first recorded calculation of the earth's circumference was done by Eratosthenes around 240 BC.

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"I want to learn magic," Bran told him. "The crow promised that I would fly."

Maester Luwin sighed. "I can teach you history, healing, herblore. I can teach you the speech of ravens, and how to build a castle, and the way a sailor steers his ship by the stars. I can teach you to measure the days and mark the seasons, and at the Citadel in Oldtown they can teach you a thousand things more. But, Bran, no man can teach you magic."

"The children could," Bran said. "The children of the forest." That reminded him of the promise he had made to Osha in the godswood, so he told Luwin what she had said.

The maester listened politely. "The Wildling woman could give Old Nan lessons in telling tales, I think," he said when Bran was done. "I will talk with her again if you like, but it would be best if you did not trouble your brother with this folly. He has more than enough to concern him without fretting over giants and dead men in the woods. It's the Lannisters who hold your lord father, Bran, not the children of the forest." He put a gentle hand on Bran's arm. "Think on what I said, child."

A Game of Thrones - Bran VI

Could a woman teach Bran magic?

[Fun Guy from Yuggoth]

39 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

Not to hate on the dark moon theorists out there but I don't think Luwin was measuring shadows in the sky, I mean, it's not impossible,

As I said above though, it is a direct reference to The Whisperer in Darkness, where the crab/tree/fungi from Yuggoth would send thought currents to let a human astronomer discover Yuggoth (uigean means "lonely wanderer" and uaigneach means "unearthly")--and the gods of the Faith of the Seven are the planets and the Stranger is a wanderer from far places that is unknown and unknowable--it has no regular orbit--it is all black with stars for eyes.  Luwin happens to be an astronomer whose name means "moon" and "doomsday" and "wanderer" in gaelic.  And he was making shadow maps, which involved star charts.  And all the maps of Westeros show a black sphere on them. 

 

[Fun Guy from Yuggoth]

Skagos, which in the Old Tongue means "rock" but in Old Norse and Icelandic, skygge/skuggi means "shadow" or "to block the light" or "cast something into darkness" --so a rock that is a Shadow, that would be observable from Winterfell. (with the extra sky implication, as "skygge" starts with "sky"--a shadow in the sky) 

And they ride the Black Goat in Skagos, and in the Tree on the Hill, the Black Goat will cause an Endless Night.  And the Black Goat is one of the names of the God of Death, along with the Great Stone Face, and the Lion of Night, and the Stranger.

[Mourning Star]

40 minutes ago, By Odin's Beard said:

As I said above though, it is a direct reference to The Whisperer in Darkness, where the crab/tree/fungi from Yuggoth would send thought currents to let a human astronomer discover Yuggoth (uigean means "lonely wanderer" and uaigneach means "unearthly")--and the gods of the Faith of the Seven are the planets and the Stranger is a wanderer from far places that is unknown and unknowable--it has no regular orbit--it is all black with stars for eyes.  Luwin happens to be an astronomer whose name means "moon" and "doomsday" and "wanderer" in gaelic.  And he was making shadow maps, which involved star charts.  And all the maps of Westeros show a black sphere on them. 

 

I love the references, but...

The seven wanderers are classically the Moon, Mercury, Venus, the Sun, Mars, Jupiter, and Saturn. I do agree that in ASoIaF it seems these same celestial objects are assigned to the seven gods, as we see the red wanderer is sacred to the smith. However, I don't see how this leaves room for a dark moon to equate with the stranger.

I'm inclined to think the name Luwin is a combination of Lupus (wolf) and the suffix -win (friend/protector), to mean something like the wolf friend or friend of wolves.

Again, I'm not saying it's impossible Luwin was making shadow maps of the sky, it just seems more likly to me he was literally measuring shadows as part of his scientific pursuit.

I'll need to drag up my old books to see the maps/black sphere you describe...

[Fun Guy from Yuggoth]

23 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

The seven wanderers are classically the Moon, Mercury, Venus, the Sun, Mars, Jupiter, and Saturn.

Jon says he can "find the seven wanderers" --and no-one would say they could "find" the sun or moon, I don't think they are part of the Seven.

Mercury is the Warrior, Venus Morningstar is the Maiden, Venus Eveningstar is the Mother, Mars is the Smith, Jupiter is the Father, Saturn is the Crone (cronus), and the Stranger is the Dark Planet.

It is classic Roman / Greek mythology. 

[Fun Guy from Yuggoth]

"The septs of Westeros were seven-sided, with seven altars for the seven gods, but here there were more gods than seven. Statues of them stood along the walls, massive and threatening. Around their feet red candles flickered, as dim as distant stars. The nearest was a marble woman twelve feet tall. Real tears were trickling from her eyes, to fill the bowl she cradled in her arms. Beyond her was a man with a lion's head seated on a throne, carved of ebony. On the other side of the doors, a huge horse of bronze and iron reared up on two great legs. Farther on she could make out a great stone face, a pale infant with a sword, a shaggy black goat the size of an aurochs, a hooded man leaning on a staff. The rest were only looming shapes to her, half-seen through the gloom. Between the gods were hidden alcoves thick with shadows, with here and there a candle burning."

This whole passage feels like looking into the night sky, and half-seen in the gloom, amongst the stars, we see the God of Death, who is a great stone face, a black solar lion riding a black throne, a Black Goat, the Stranger.

"Only a few candles burned this evening, flickering like fallen stars. In the darkness all the gods were strangers."

 

From Cat:

"And the seventh face . . . the Stranger was neither male nor female, yet both, ever the outcast, the wanderer from far places, less and more than human, unknown and unknowable. Here the face was a black oval, a shadow with stars for eyes. It made Catelyn uneasy."

It is The Shadow.

[MaesterSam]

5 hours ago, By Odin's Beard said:

Has anybody here read the Witcher?  There is something about the Conjunction of Spheres, when all hell broke loose, and demons were set loose on Earth, but I haven't read it.

I can't believe I've read something you haven't, hahaha. It's been a while, but basically the CoS was an event long before the actual story that temporarily connected many worlds (planets? It's not entirely clear) and allowed the various inhabitants to travel instantaneously from one to another. This created all kinds of problems as dangerous magical creatures attacked defenseless worlds. The world that the Witcher takes place in was originally the world of the elves. Humans (and demons and such) ended up there during the Conjunction - the human home world had been destroyed. I can't remember what ended the CoS but when it did, everyone became trapped where they were. Humans eventually learned magic and took over the elf world with very few elves still around during the main story, living sad lives in the mountains and many literally starving. 

One of the main characters develops the ability to travel between worlds in the last book. She is part of a prophecy that also includes an endless winter - called the Wolf's blizzard, and the Witcher himself is also called the white wolf! - that will lead to the extinction of all humans. Elves will survive, through her. There is a cool line about her being a seed that instead of sprouting will burst into flame, though it is not clear what this actually means. Sadly the series ends before we get to see any of this (being about the Witcher, who interacts with this character, but not primarily about her). She is a cool character who shares some similarities with Dany - an orphaned princess with magical talent who everyone wants to marry either for the title, the prophecy, or both. She has grey hair not silver but also is pretty recognizable to people who see her. She reads more like Arya though, a young girl who is raised in a castle, then is suddenly alone in the world and has to fend for herself with powers she doesn't fully understand. She makes some sketchy friends, learns to fight, but really just longs for a peaceful life with her new guardians (the Witcher and a sorceress he sometimes dates) - so basically the house with the red door, bringing us full circle back to Dany. It's a cool series, though written in a somewhat unconventional way. You've read everything else, you should check it out.  

 

[Fun Guy from Yuggoth]

28 minutes ago, MaesterSam said:

She is part of a prophecy that also includes an endless winter - called the Wolf's blizzard, and the Witcher himself is also called the white wolf!

Reminds me that in Lord of the Rings Frodo mentions:

"The Brandybucks were blowing the Horn-call of Buckland, that had not been sounded for a hundred years, not since the white wolves came in the Fell Winter, when the Brandywine was frozen over."

Which I think is where "Winterfell" came from--a Fell Winter--an evil winter-->the Long Night .  That is associated with the White Wolf, Jon Snow--the new Night King.  (also the Hour of the Wolf is the darkest part of Night, before dawn)

Also, in Norse myth, Fimbulwinter ("Great Winter") precedes the end of the current age, and in Old English it is Fifelwinter (fifelwinter)

Also, in Anglo-Saxon winterfylleth (winterfelld) is the month of October, and fell means "skin. hide" in Anglo-Saxon, and the Starks are skin-changers.

[Prince of the North]

22 hours ago, MaesterSam said:

Just felt the need to chime in and agree with you after reading pages of back and forth. For me it's actually not the conversation about wings that convinced me but the fact that it asks for corn and then proceeds to eat it from Bran's hand. I just don't see how this entity could do this while thinking it was anything other than a crow. 

This is an interesting point.  However, I think the asking for and eating of corn in Bran's dream/vision doesn't then absolutely mean the TEC thinks it's a "crow".  I think that's a leap.  Anyway, it's very refreshing that you present here what you believe and the aspect of that dream sequence that leads you to believe it while not presenting your theory/belief as being fact.  Unfortunately for all of us, there's really only one thing that makes things fact or canon in ASoIaF - confirmation from the author 

[Fun Guy from Yuggoth]

9 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

I'm inclined to think the name Luwin is a combination of Lupus (wolf) and the suffix -win (friend/protector), to mean something like the wolf friend or friend of wolves.

Again, I'm not saying it's impossible Luwin was making shadow maps of the sky, it just seems more likly to me he was literally measuring shadows as part of his scientific pursuit.

Just for you I read back through the gaelic and welsh dictionaries for words sounding like "Luwin"

Welsh:  lleu = "to explain / read / lecture";   lleu = "light / to read";  lleuad = "moon";  llew = "lion" or "that which devours";  llewyrn = "meteor" or "a fiery exhalation";  llewyn = "meteor";  llewynad = "verging to a focus, a reflection of rays",  llewyr = "reader";  llewin = "west" or "going into the west / setting sun" ;  llewen = "focus";  llaw = "hand"

 

Gaelic (from Dinneen's):  luan = "light / moon / Day of Judgement";  luanchad = "eclipse of the moon";  luanaischeach = "a person enchained";  luain-chrech = "dire ruin";

 

Gaelic (from Dwelly's):  luainich = "traveler / wanderer";  luaineach = "moving / ambulatory / mercurial";  Luan = "moon" and "woman's breast";  [and a few words up] luamair = "astronomer / navigator";  luighe = "cauldron / kettle";   luighe = "lying";  luigean = "weakling, untidy fellow"

and maighstir = "teacher"

The Scottish Naturalist (1883) says that Luan is a contraction of Luath-an or "swift planet"

 

So, Luwin wears a maester's chain (he is enchained), and he is a reader/explainer/lecturer and an astronomer, and is a specialist in lenses, llewen means "focus" and lenses are central to his character. 

When we first meet Luwin he brings Catelyn the letter about the Hand of the King being murdered he sees Catelyn's breasts--and those are words (luan means breast, and llaw means hand)

Also, the message was hidden in a box with a lens, which was a clue that there was a hidden message--the lens will help you see that hidden message.  And the lens was for Luwin's Myrish lens telescope--which leads us to the real hidden message--what Luwin was observing with his telescope?

He makes observations of the Red Comet and "shadows" and he makes "shadow maps" and his name comes from words meaning meteor, Lion, Moon, wanderers, the Day of Judgement, cauldron, and eclipse.--this is the Lion of Night second moon that causes the Long Night.  His pupil is Bran, and Bran's Cauldron brought the dead back to life. 

He lies to Bran about magic and the Others and the CoTF and that Bran and Hodor can never fight as one (luighe means "lying").

Luwin's turret is a cluttered mess, and luigean means an "untidy fellow"

 

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He saw Winterfell as the eagles see it, the tall towers looking squat and stubby from above, the castle walls just lines in the dirt. He saw Maester Luwin on his balcony, studying the sky through a polished bronze tube and frowning as he made notes in a book.

. . . .

There were shadows all around them. One shadow was dark as ash, with the terrible face of a hound. Another was armored like the sun, golden and beautiful. Over them both loomed a giant in armor made of stone, but when he opened his visor, there was nothing inside but darkness and thick black blood.

Maester Luwin doing astronomical observations and frowning about what he sees.  In that same dream Bran sees a giant hollow stone giant eclipse the sun.  I always read the flying dream as Bran being the red comet observing the world, but it works better that Bran could be the Second Moon observing the world from above.

As there is a whole line of clues about Bran causing the Long Night, he is the Winged Wolf chained to the Earth, and at Ragnarok a flying wolf (skolli, "a mock sun") swallows the sun.  And in celtic Myth, Bran is a giant floating head, and his Cauldron brings the dead back to life.

 

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"For a certainty," Maester Luwin agreed with a deep sigh. The maester was peering through his big Myrish lens tube, measuring shadows and noting the position of the comet that hung low in the morning sky.

 

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Maester Luwin's turret was so cluttered that it seemed to Bran a wonder that he ever found anything. Tottering piles of books covered tables and chairs, rows of stoppered jars lined the shelves, candle stubs and puddles of dried wax dotted the furniture, the bronze Myrish lens tube sat on a tripod by the terrace door, star charts hung from the walls, shadow maps lay scattered among the rushes,

 

 

And here are the relevant passages from Whisperer in Darkness about the crabs making human astronomers notice Yuggoth:

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Their main immediate abode is a still undiscovered and almost lightless planet at the very edge of our solar system—beyond Neptune, and the ninth in distance from the sun. It is, as we have inferred, the object mystically hinted at as “Yuggoth” in certain ancient and forbidden writings; and it will soon be the scene of a strange focussing of thought upon our world in an effort to facilitate mental rapport. I would not be surprised if astronomers became sufficiently sensitive to these thought-currents to discover Yuggoth when the Outer Ones wish them to do so.

. . .

The first trip will be to Yuggoth, the nearest world fully peopled by the beings. It is a strange dark orb at the very rim of our solar system—unknown to earthly astronomers as yet. But I must have written you about this. At the proper time, you know, the beings there will direct thought-currents toward us and cause it to be discovered—or perhaps let one of their human allies give the scientists a hint.

. . .

Those wild hills are surely the outpost of a frightful cosmic race—as I doubt all the less since reading that a new ninth planet has been glimpsed beyond Neptune, just as those influences had said it would be glimpsed. Astronomers, with a hideous appropriateness they little suspect, have named this thing “Pluto”. I feel, beyond question, that it is nothing less than nighted Yuggoth—and I shiver when I try to figure out the real reason why its monstrous denizens wish it to be known in this way at this especial time. I vainly try to assure myself that these daemoniac creatures are not gradually leading up to some new policy hurtful to the earth and its normal inhabitants.

(Pluto is the god of the Underworld) 

[MaesterSam]

23 minutes ago, Prince of the North said:

This is an interesting point.  However, I think the asking for and eating of corn in Bran's dream/vision doesn't then absolutely mean the TEC thinks it's a "crow".  I think that's a leap.  Anyway, it's very refreshing that you present here what you believe and the aspect of that dream sequence that leads you to believe it while not presenting your theory/belief as being fact.  Unfortunately for all of us, there's really only one thing that makes things fact or canon in ASoIaF - confirmation from the author 

Ha, thanks. I've been around long enough to appreciate the value of adding a quick "IMO" to a statement to keep things civilized. And I try to remember that we are all discussing a fictional world in an unfinished series. Don't know how much of Martin's other work you've read but it has certainly convinced me that even seemingly far-out-there theories shouldn't be dismissed out of hand. And BR being the 3EC is not far out there; it seems to be the accepted theory among most of the fandom. I personally just feel like there are enough hints pointing in a different direction that other possible identities should be considered. I have a hard time picturing BR, as himself, eating raw corn out of Bran's hand but hey, stranger things have happened. I'm also not sure why BR would continue appearing in Bran's dreams as the 3EC after Bran has arrived and is sitting right next to him. But obviously there are ways to explain that, I'm sure. I do agree overall that nothing is fact until confirmed by GRRM or directly stated in the books. Which is a good thing, otherwise we'd have run out of stuff to argue about years ago.  

[Mourning Star]

2 hours ago, By Odin's Beard said:

Just for you I read back through the gaelic and welsh dictionaries for words sounding like "Luwin"

I love all the references, but still favor the simpler explanation for Luwin (Lupus/wolf, -win/friend). However, I love to learn and there is no reason there can’t be multiple meanings.

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Maester Luwin doing astronomical observations and frowning about what he sees.  In that same dream Bran sees a giant hollow stone giant eclipse the sun.  I always read the flying dream as Bran being the red comet observing the world, but it works better that Bran could be the Second Moon observing the world from above.

I assume Luwin is frowning because the scientific observations are not making sense with the magic world he lives in.

Measuring time, in particular seasons, was done by watching the sky and measuring shadows… however in ASoIaF the seasons don’t make any scientific sense, with seasons lasting for years.

Luwin being the rational voice of science, while at the same time clearly having his own doubts, is part of what makes him such a great character for me. The man says he doesn’t believe in magic, but when he’s dying he crawls to the Weirwood.

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As there is a whole line of clues about Bran causing the Long Night, he is the Winged Wolf chained to the Earth, and at Ragnarok a flying wolf (skolli, "a mock sun") swallows the sun.  And in celtic Myth, Bran is a giant floating head, and his Cauldron brings the dead back to life.

I agree that Bran is associated with Fenrir and Ragnarok/the long night… but what that means isn’t so clear to me, or even if it is a bad thing.

The children of Fenrir, Skoll (one who mocks) and Hati (one who hates) are said to swallow the sun and moon at Ragnarok. I’m not sure the “mock sun” is a correct interpretation here.

[Fun Guy from Yuggoth]

22 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

simpler explanation for Luwin (Lupus/wolf, -win/friend)

Pluto was discovered at Lowell Observatory, where the search for Planet X was based, and Lowell means "young wolf", and Luwin was Bran's astronomy tutor.  (Pluto is nighted Yuggoth)  lou / leu means "wolf" in Anglo-Norman

In Anglo Saxon, hlowan means "to low, roar" and "luw" or "lew"  /  in many languages means "lion". 

Luwin "was peering through his big Myrish lens tube, measuring shadows and noting the position of the comet that hung low in the morning sky."

In German, loh / lohe means "blazing, flaming, burning" and Lowe means "lion" and Lug means "spy-hole, peep-hole", and and Lugen means "to show, to be visible, to peep out"--and Luwin is the first to spy the blazing red comet, and he also observes the Lion of Night.

In hindi, lau means "tongue of flame" and "absorption of mind"

 

In Alchemy, they talk about a black sun / crows head / green lion eating the sun.  When Joffrey is poisoned, a golden solar lion has its face turn purple and black--"the Strangler" causes the sun to go black. which is one letter away from "the Stranger"--

And viser means "shadow" and when Viserys comes between Drogo (solar lion) and Dany (the moon), he gets a golden crown of solar eclipse.

 

In a Cthulhu mythos story called To Clear the Earth, a man named Stark goes to Antarctica (heart of winter) and accidentally wakes up a huge alien sphere that shoots shadow flame and turns everything to greasy black stone.  The sphere was made to kill all life on the planet to prepare for the return of Cthulhu.

 

While thinking about the Lion of Night moon and Bran and Luwin, I happened to re-read this passage and the whole lion gargoyles at Winterfell mystery finally made sense:

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The earth was a thousand miles beneath him and he could not fly. He could not fly. He waited until his heart had stopped pounding, until he could breathe, and he began to climb again. There was no way to go but up. Far above him, outlined against a vast pale moon, he thought he could see the shapes of gargoyles. His arms were sore and aching, but he dared not rest. He forced himself to climb faster. The gargoyles watched him ascend. Their eyes glowed red as hot coals in a brazier. Perhaps once they had been lions, but now they were twisted and grotesque. Bran could hear them whispering to each other in soft stone voices terrible to hear. He must not listen, he told himself, he must not hear, so long as he did not hear them he was safe. But when the gargoyles pulled themselves loose from the stone and padded down the side of the tower to where Bran clung, he knew he was not safe after all. "I didn't hear," he wept as they came closer and closer, "I didn't, I didn't."

He woke gasping, lost in darkness, and saw a vast shadow looming over him. "I didn't hear," he whispered, trembling in fear, but then the shadow said "Hodor," and lit the candle by the bedside, and Bran sighed with relief.

A lion gargoyle eclipsed the moon--it was nightmare vision of the Lion of Night eclipsing the moon--and it was twisted and grotesque monster with glowing eyes--and it is coming closer to the Earth and coming to get Bran.  He awakes lost in darkness, and sees a vast looming shape.  Again references to the Lion of Night.

Which made me realize that Cat gives us the best description of the Stranger (all black wanderer from far places with stars for eyes, unknowable), and Cat of the Canals describes the gods of death in the House of Black and White (including the Stranger and the Lion of Night).  Cats describe the Lion of Night--it is joke, because the Lion of Night is a cat, and Cats are describing the cat. 

And there is the Shadowcat constellation, implying a black cat in the sky.

And the whole Black Dragon vs the Red Dragon is a metaphor for the Long Night being ended by the red comet.  The Black Dragon is the Second moon and the Red Dragon is the Red Comet.

Then there is the whole Balerion the Black Dread is a black cat.  Black dragons like Balerion and Drogon are often said to block the sun:  "his wings so vast that whole towns were swallowed up in their shadow"  "But most dreaded of all is the shadow-wing, a nocturnal monster whose black scales and wings make him all but invisible...until he descends out of the darkness to tear apart his prey."  The Black Cat, the Lion of Night blocks the sun.

 

 

While researching latin wolf words, I came across catulio / catulus which means "to desire the male, of dogs or of she-wolves"--and Catelyn desired the male wolf Brandon.  Gross.  And Catullus is mentioned in the story The Rats in the Walls, about a werewolf who discovers the truth of his ancestry in the crypts under his castle. 

[The Lord of the Crossing]

Worms are disgusting but provide a necessary service for the health of the environment.  They decompose the dead and return resources to the ground.  Worms in ASOIAF are the creatures who shun the light and live off the dead.  It is what Arya, the undying of Qarth, Bran, and the weirwood trees are.  One way or another, they feed off the dead.  Arya recycles dead for the house of black and white.  Bran will soon start feeding off blood sacrifices.  Jon the Wight is not going to be a vegan when he comes back.  He'll have to feed on flesh in order to continue what life he has left to find Arya.  

[Seams]

Do these scenes fit with the white worm symbolism?

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Baelor turned his attention to recovering Prince Aemon from his imprisonment. He had asked the Dornish prince to explicitly command the Dragonknight's release, and this Lord Wyl accepted. Yet instead of freeing Aemon himself, he gave Baelor the key to Aemon's cage, and an invitation to use it. But now, not only was Aemon naked in a cage, exposed to the hot sun by day and the cold wind by night, but also a pit had been dug beneath the cage, and within it were many vipers. The Dragonknight is said to have begged for the king to leave him, to go and seek aid in the Dornish Marches instead, but Baelor is said to have smiled and told him that the gods would protect him. Then he stepped into the pit.

Later, the singers claimed that the vipers bowed their heads to Baelor as he passed, but the truth is otherwise. Baelor was bitten half a dozen times while crossing to the cage, and though he opened it, he nearly collapsed before the Dragonknight was able to thrust open the door and pull his cousin from the pit. (The World of Ice and Fire - The Targaryen Kings: Baelor I)

Pennytree:

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Between a duck pond and a blacksmith's forge, he came upon the tree that gave the place its name, an oak ancient and tall. Its gnarled roots twisted in and out of the earth like a nest of slow brown serpents, and hundreds of old copper pennies had been nailed to its huge trunk. (ADwD, Jaime I)

Brienne is about to turn up at Pennytree and persuade Jaime to ride off with her to save "the girl." 

[Quoth the raven,]

There are caverns and caves in the north. The few who survive will adapt to the darkness in the same way cave characins did.  These real world fishes are blind and are very pale in color compared to other characins(Tetra).  Cannibalism will become necessary due to the lack of photosynthesis.  Bran and Manderly have already started.  

 

On 6/19/2021 at 6:19 PM, The Lord of the Crossing said:

Worms are disgusting but provide a necessary service for the health of the environment.  They decompose the dead and return resources to the ground.  Worms in ASOIAF are the creatures who shun the light and live off the dead.  It is what Arya, the undying of Qarth, Bran, and the weirwood trees are.  One way or another, they feed off the dead.  Arya recycles dead for the house of black and white.  Bran will soon start feeding off blood sacrifices.  Jon the Wight is not going to be a vegan when he comes back.  He'll have to feed on flesh in order to continue what life he has left to find Arya.  

 

[Rondo]

5 hours ago, Quoth the raven, said:

There are caverns and caves in the north. The few who survive will adapt to the darkness in the same way cave characins did.  These real world fishes are blind and are very pale in color compared to other characins(Tetra).  Cannibalism will become necessary due to the lack of photosynthesis.  Bran and Manderly have already started.  

 

 

Maggots.  The people of the north and those areas affected most by the long night will have to feed off the dead.  Worms and maggots they will be.  Cannibalism is another taboo which will feature heavily in the plot.