Born under a Fiery Star

[HoodedCrow]

Do you suppose the shield of weirwood that creates a tabletop for the Kingsguard could be a more important shield? I’m using the “Purloined Letter” approach.

[Fun Guy from Yuggoth]

1 hour ago, HoodedCrow said:

Do you suppose the shield of weirwood that creates a tabletop for the Kingsguard could be a more important shield? I’m using the “Purloined Letter” approach.

You mean a clue hidden in plain sight?  The God's Eye lake is a mirror, and the Dawn sword / Red Comet will be launched from the God's Eye.  So there is the whole mirror shield hiding the white knight who slays the dragon with a stab through (from?) the eye.

And Oberon the Red Viper blinds the Mountain with a mirror shield before growing wings and leaping over the Mountain (who was eclipsing the sun) and stabbing him with a leafy poisoned spear, after which his head is crushed and his teeth "splintered" like wood.  Which is a whole metaphor about the Long Night and how it ended.  A red knight and a white knight both use the mirror shield.  (EDIT, in European Legend the Castle Oberon [text description] was a living castle with watchful Eyes.

In gaelic sgail means "shadow or eclipse" as well as "reflection".  Another way to say sgail is sgath, meaning "shadow, shade, veil, phantasm" and sgathan means "mirror" sgath also means "fright, fear, dread" and "consuming, destruction, waste, havoc" and "lopping, pruning"  and scail means "shadow, reflection, ghost, astral body"

And they still worship Saagael in Lys.

(in Welsh cerwyn means "vat/tub" from the Latin word for "keel"--boat/tub)--

 

ETA: the whole business about Myrish mirrors and Myrish lenses.  Mere means "lake" and Myr is famous for lenses and mirrors.  A lens is something you look through with your eye, The Eye and the Mirror in the lake.

[HoodedCrow]

Yes,hidden in plain sight:) Odin’s beard, that is a lot to think about. Thanks!

[Fun Guy from Yuggoth]

Here is something, Mance goes to Winterfell disguised Able, and Bael went to Winterfell as Syggerik.  In Norse mythology, Sigurd draws the sword Gram out of the tree Barnstokkr, that Odin had put there, and Sigurd uses it to kill the dragon Fafnir by hiding in a hole in the ground and stabbing up into the dragons belly when it crawls over the hole.  Sounds not unlike the weirwood waiting an stabbing up in to the belly of the Second Moon when it is overhead.

sigr means "victory" in Old Norse

sigerice means "victorious" in Anglo-Saxon and sigel means "sun"

 

While on the topic, Syggerik of Skagos. 

In the Old Tongue Skagos means "stone"

In Old Norse skuggi means "shade, shadow, spectre"

skegg means "shaggy" and Rikon and Shaggydog got sent to Skagos.

skeggi means "Island shaggies, i.e., islanders" and

skaga means "to jut out"

skyggja means "to overshadow"

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The "unicorns" of Skagos were once scoffed at by maesters at the Citadel. The occasional "unicorn horn" offered by disreputable merchants has never been more than the horn of a kind of whale hunted by the whalers of Ib. However, horns of quite a different kind—reputed to be from Skagos—have been seen by the maesters at Eastwatch upon occasion. It is also said that those seafarers brave enough to trade on Skagos have glimpsed the stoneborn lords riding great, shaggy, horned beasts, monstrous mounts so sure-footed they have been known to climb the sides of mountains. A living example of such a creature—or even a skeleton—has long been sought for study, but none has ever been brought to Oldtown.

 

They ride the Black Goat at Skagos, and Skagos means "shadow, rock, overshadow, and spectre" and the Black Goat from Lovecraft is a "shadow" from deep space that will cause a Long Night on Earth during the year of the Black Goat.  And I have been arguing that the Second Moon / the shadow moon is a huge rock that will overshadow the Earth during the Long Night.

[The Commentator]

On 6/12/2021 at 1:25 AM, Wolf's Bane said:

If there is any connection to this story at all, it may have served as somewhat of an inspiration to George.  We already know who was reborn under a star.  A bleeding star in this story.  Daenerys Targaryen and the dragons were all reborn when the red star was close to the planet.  She is the King Artur, the person who awakened dragons from stone.  It was not a sword but a dragons pulled from stone in this story.

Dany is the hero who will unite the people and start the next empire of the dawn.  

[Fun Guy from Yuggoth]

2 hours ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

Dany is the hero who will unite the people and start the next empire of the dawn.  

She burns people alive, crucifies people, she invades foreign lands and tries to impose her will, and leaves a trail of destruction wherever she goes.  George has said that the dragons are a metaphor for absolute military power, and as the phrase goes, absolute power corrupts absolutely. 

 

Quote

"Remember who you are, Daenerys," the stars whispered in a woman's voice. "The dragons know. Do you?"

No. You are the blood of the dragon. The whispering was growing fainter, as if Ser Jorah were falling farther behind. Dragons plant no trees. Remember that. Remember who you are, what you were made to be. Remember your words.

 

In gaelic, tairngeartac means "the Promised One, Messiah"

and tairngedach means "lucifer, lightbringer"

 

But George has warned us about believing prophesy, that the results will be the opposite of what we hoped, (prophesy will bite your dick off, it is a donkey that will kick you in the head)

In gaelic, Dana means "the Evil One" and 

danar means "Stranger, foreigner, a cruel or savage person"

danarya means "foreign, fierce, self-willed, cruel, brutal, terrible, sorry"

danaryacht means "cruelty, tyranny, ferocity"

and dan means "song"

In hindi, daini means "evil omen, unlucky" and

dahna means "to be burnt, to burn, to blaze with anger, to cause distress" and

dhana means "to destroy" and dain/daina means "flight/wing"

dahniya means "to be burnt"

So, I think Dany will be an anti-hero, and destroy huge swathes of the Essos and Westeros, but may end up being pivotal in ending the Long Night at the end, because Targs are needed to "hatch dragons"--which the Red Comet is.

In Norse mythology, at Ragnarok  Midgard gets invaded by the frost giants from the north and fire giants from the south, and Midgard is destroyed.  Dany and her dragons are the fire giants, and Drogon is probably Surtr ("black") with the flaming sword that destroys the world.

 

Although, reading about Surtr, his flaming sword sounds like a blazing bright weirwood comet:

Quote

Surtr moves from the south

with the scathe of branches :

there shines from his sword

the sun of Gods of the Slain

"amid this turmoil the sky will open and from it will ride the sons of Muspell. Surtr will ride in front, and both before and behind him there will be burning fire. His sword will be very fine. Light will shine from it more brightly than from the sun."

A huge flaming sword in the sky.

 

[Fun Guy from Yuggoth]

Forgot to add that Dany falling back in with the Dothraki is bad news, as they are raiders and conquerors.  Dothraki are known for destroying civilizations, and The World Book's account of the Dothraki destroying the Kingdom of Sarnor is heavy foreshadowing.

[James West]

On 6/12/2021 at 1:25 AM, Wolf's Bane said:

If there is any connection to this story at all, it may have served as somewhat of an inspiration to George.  We already know who was reborn under a star.  A bleeding star in this story.  Daenerys Targaryen and the dragons were all reborn when the red star was close to the planet.  She is the King Artur, the person who awakened dragons from stone.  It was not a sword but a dragons pulled from stone in this story.

Daenerys will succeed where her male ancestors failed.  She has always been a very smart and perceptive child.  The dragons will be the game-changer in this fight.  The Others are not going to be permanently defeated but hopefully their damage can be limited to Westeros.  

[TedBear]

I keep reading all this and thinking that soon Asoiaf will become a religion, so much so that people study and study about every sentence that might mean nothing in the end. 

[Fun Guy from Yuggoth]

32 minutes ago, TedBear said:

I keep reading all this and thinking that soon Asoiaf will become a religion, so much so that people study and study about every sentence that might mean nothing in the end. 

If you haven't read George's story The Way of Cross and Dragon, you should.  (audiobook)  I am almost certain George did intend ASOIAF to be a "religion" of sorts.  The Lord of the Rings was supposed to have been about real events which took place on Earth thousands of years ago and Tolkien found an ancient book that described it all and he translated it, and I think George is doing the same thing.  That these were events that took place on Earth 10,000 years ago, before the Younger Dryas Comet Impact (red comet impact) created a global flood that washed away the entire civilization of Westeros and Essos.  (Which parallels Ragnarok when the world is destroyed and sinks below the waves, only to be reborn.)

But George says in The Way of Cross and Dragon that, of course, ultimately nothing matters, and that people need "faith" to keep away the darkness, and that Liars like George invent those "faiths":

Quote

“We Liars, like those of all other religions, have several truths we take on faith. Faith is always required. There are some things that cannot be proven. We believe that life is worth living. That is an article of faith. The purpose of life is to live, to resist death, perhaps to defy entropy.”

. . .

“The Liars believe in no afterlife, no God. We see the universe as it is, Father Damien, and these naked truths are cruel ones. We who believe in life, and treasure it, will die. Afterward there will be nothing, eternal emptiness, blackness, nonexistence. In our living there has been no purpose, no poetry, no meaning. Nor do our deaths possess these qualities. When we are gone, the universe will not long remember us, and shortly it will be as if we had never lived at all. Our worlds and our universe will not long outlive us. Ultimately, entropy will consume all, and our puny efforts cannot stay that awful end. It will be gone. It has never been. It has never mattered. The universe itself is doomed, transient, uncaring.”

I slid back in my chair, and a shiver went through me as I listened to poor Lukyan’s dark words. I found myself fingering my crucifix. “A bleak philosophy,” I said, “as well as a false one. I have had that fearful vision myself. I think all of us do, at some point. But it is not so, Father. My faith sustains me against such nihilism. It is a shield against despair.”

“Oh, I know that, my friend, my Knight Inquisitor,” Lukyan said. “I’m glad to see you understand so well. You are almost one of us already.”

I frowned.

“You’ve touched the heart of it,” Lukyan continued. “The truths, the great truths—and most of the lesser ones as well—they are unbearable for most men. We find our shield in faith. Your faith, my faith, any faith. It doesn’t matter, so long as we believe, really and truly believe, in whatever lie we cling to.” He fingered the ragged edges of his great blond beard. “Our psychs have always told us that believers are the happy ones, you know. They may believe in Christ or Buddha or Erika Stormjones, in reincarnation or immortality or nature, in the power of love or the platform of a political faction, but it all comes to the same thing. They believe. They are happy. It is the ones who have seen truth who despair, and kill themselves. The truths are so vast, the faiths so little, so poorly made, so riddled with error and contradiction that we see around them and through them, and then we feel the weight of darkness upon us, and can no longer be happy.”

I am not a slow man. I knew, by then, where Lukyan Judasson was going. “Your Liars invent faiths.”

He smiled. “Of all sorts. Not only religious. Think of it. We know truth for the cruel instrument it is. Beauty is infinitely preferable to truth. We invent beauty. Faiths, political movements, high ideals, belief in love and fellowship. All of them are lies. We tell those lies, among others, endless others. We improve on history and myth and religion, make each more beautiful, better, easier to believe in. Our lies are not perfect, of course. The truths are too big. But perhaps someday we will find one great lie that all humanity can use. Until then, a thousand small lies will do.”

“I think I do not care for your Liars very much,” I said with a cold, even fervor. “My whole life has been a quest for truth.”

Lukyan was indulgent. “Father Damien Har Veris, Knight Inquisitor, I know you better than that. You are a Liar yourself. You do good work. You ship from world to world, and on each you destroy the foolish, the rebels, the questioners who would bring down the edifice of the vast lie that you serve.”

“If my lie is so admirable,” I said, “then why have you abandoned it?”

“A religion must fit its culture and society, work with them, not against them. If there is conflict, contradiction, then the lie breaks down, and the faith falters. Your Church is good for many worlds, Father, but not for Arion. Life is too kind here, and your faith is stern. Here we love beauty, and your faith offers too little. So we have improved it. We studied this world for a long time. We know its psychological profile. Saint Judas will thrive here. He offers drama, and color, and much beauty—the aesthetics are admirable. His is a tragedy with a happy ending, and Arion dotes on such stories. And the dragons are a nice touch. I think your own Church ought to find a way to work in dragons. They are marvelous creatures.”

“Mythical,” I said.

“Hardly,” he replied. “Look it up.” He grinned at me. “You see, really, it all comes back to faith. Can you really know what happened three thousand years ago? You have one Judas, I have another. Both of us have books. Is yours true? Can you really believe that? I have been admitted only to the first circle of the order of Liars, so I do not know all our secrets, but I know that we are very old. It would not surprise me to learn that the gospels were written by men very much like me. Perhaps there never was a Judas at all. Or a Jesus.”

 

[Quoth the raven,]

On 6/12/2021 at 1:25 AM, Wolf's Bane said:

If there is any connection to this story at all, it may have served as somewhat of an inspiration to George.  We already know who was reborn under a star.  A bleeding star in this story.  Daenerys Targaryen and the dragons were all reborn when the red star was close to the planet.  She is the King Artur, the person who awakened dragons from stone.  It was not a sword but a dragons pulled from stone in this story.

Dany is the heroine who will have the "sword" to unite the land.  Drogon is the real Blackfyre and Dany is the real Azor Ahai.  Aegon and the sword, Blackfyre, are one step below Dany and Drogon.  

[Rondo]

On 6/15/2021 at 3:27 AM, James West said:

Daenerys will succeed where her male ancestors failed.  She has always been a very smart and perceptive child.  The dragons will be the game-changer in this fight.  The Others are not going to be permanently defeated but hopefully their damage can be limited to Westeros.  

 

5 hours ago, Quoth the raven, said:

Dany is the heroine who will have the "sword" to unite the land.  Drogon is the real Blackfyre and Dany is the real Azor Ahai.  Aegon and the sword, Blackfyre, are one step below Dany and Drogon.  

Daenerys and Aegon are the reincarnations of Azor Ahai.  One reason proposed for Aegon's conquest of Westeros was to better prepare for the coming of the threat from the north.  Daenerys will be better equipped this time and yes, possibly save more of civilization than past Azor Ahais were able to do.  

[Mourning Star]

On 6/13/2021 at 8:58 AM, Alexis-something-Rose said:

I am the sword in the darkness. I am the watcher on the walls. I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers, the shield that guards the realms of men. 

The non italicized lines are straight up about the Long Night. But the sword, the horn and the shield are the objects mentioned. And yes, we are supposed to take them as metaphors, however, we know there is a sword and we know there is a horn, so I'm guessing that there must be a shield as well. 

I agree that the oath you quoted can be understood metaphorically, but it may be worth trying to see if there are other potential meanings as well. So here are some thoughts!

I am the sword in the darkness.

Would a burning sword be in darkness?

Quote

Old Nan nodded. "In that darkness, the Others came for the first time," she said as her needles went click click click. "They were cold things, dead things, that hated iron and fire and the touch of the sun, and every creature with hot blood in its veins. They swept over holdfasts and cities and kingdoms, felled heroes and armies by the score, riding their pale dead horses and leading hosts of the slain. All the swords of men could not stay their advance, and even maidens and suckling babes found no pity in them. They hunted the maids through frozen forests, and fed their dead servants on the flesh of human children."

Perhaps to be a sword in the darkness is to be a mortal man and perhaps direct confrontation is futile, and not the answer.

I am the watcher on the walls.

As many a reader has noted, it is not the Wall, but rather walls (plural) in the oath.

Quote

At the center of the grove an ancient weirwood brooded over a small pool where the waters were black and cold. "The heart tree," Ned called it. The weirwood's bark was white as bone, its leaves dark red, like a thousand bloodstained hands. A face had been carved in the trunk of the great tree, its features long and melancholy, the deep-cut eyes red with dried sap and strangely watchful. They were old, those eyes; older than Winterfell itself. They had seen Brandon the Builder set the first stone, if the tales were true; they had watched the castle's granite walls rise around them. It was said that the children of the forest had carved the faces in the trees during the dawn centuries before the coming of the First Men across the narrow sea.

I would suggest that the "walls" in the oath are the walls of the Godswoods, and the Weirwoods are what need watching.

I am the fire that burns against the cold

This sounds more to me like Lightbringer.

Quote

Such is the tale of the forging of Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes.
"Now do you see my meaning? Be glad that it is just a burnt sword that His Grace pulled from that fire. Too much light can hurt the eyes, my friend, and fire burns."

Although, I'd argue the fire in this story is Nissa Nissa, the willing sacrifice who burns.

the light that brings the dawn

I suspect this is a reference to the morning star. and perhaps even more literally:

Quote

"And now it begins," said Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning. He unsheathed Dawn and held it with both hands. The blade was pale as milkglass, alive with light.

The "Sword of the Morning" is a constellation in ASoIaF as well as the title of the knight who wields Dawn, a sword forged from the heart of a fallen Star. And now it begins... and now what begins? and now my watch begins?

the horn that wakes the sleepers

Now it's easy to see how this could refer to the Horn of Winter, and Joramun waking giants from the earth. However, I wonder if "sleepers' isn't another way of saying "dreamers", as in those bound within the roots of the Weirwoods.

I also wonder if this isn't a reference to the Green Men on the Isle of Faces in the God's Eye.

Quote

"The green men ride on elks, Old Nan used to say. Sometimes they have antlers too."

the shield that guards the realms of men

This is usually taken as protecting the realms of men from the others, but might it not apply to dragons too?

Quote

"No doubt. Well, Hugor Hill, answer me this. How did Serwyn of the Mirror Shield slay the dragon Urrax?"
"He approached behind his shield. Urrax saw only his own reflection until Serwyn had plunged his spear through his eye."

 

[The Lord of the Crossing]

On 6/13/2021 at 2:51 PM, HoodedCrow said:

Do you suppose the shield of weirwood that creates a tabletop for the Kingsguard could be a more important shield? I’m using the “Purloined Letter” approach.

It's not a clue.  It's just an example of humans cutting down a tree to make furniture and other useful items.  What is a building material to humans is sacred to the Children and the greenseers.  The humans cut trees down and the Children feed humans to the trees.  The values of the two species are different.  They don't cherish the same things. 

[Targaryeninkingslanding]

just thought i'd add another connection between the watch and the legend of king Arthur. in some accounts including the account referenced to in Don Quixote, King Arthur turns into a Crow instead of going to Avalon or any other underworld, while some other accounts say he went to lead the wild hunt, which some asoiaf fans have speculated jon will go on to lead the in universe version of.

[Moiraine Sedai]

On 6/14/2021 at 10:48 AM, Widowmaker 811 said:

Dany is the hero who will unite the people and start the next empire of the dawn.  

Dany is the hero who was reborn during the appearance of the Red Comet. There will be a villain reborn under an opposite sign, Jon. The opposite of a fiery comet is a snow blizzard. Instead of bringing life, this blizzard will bring death, destruction, and misery to the people. 

[Bowen Marsh]

On 6/20/2021 at 7:44 PM, Quoth the raven, said:

Dany is the heroine who will have the "sword" to unite the land.  Drogon is the real Blackfyre and Dany is the real Azor Ahai.  Aegon and the sword, Blackfyre, are one step below Dany and Drogon.  

Rhaegar was guilty of thinking himself the hero.  He was wrong.  His decisions have done more harm than good.  The birth of the dragons have proven that it is Daenerys who will be the protagonist of the novels.  

[James Fenimore Cooper XXII]

On 6/12/2021 at 1:25 AM, Wolf's Bane said:

If there is any connection to this story at all, it may have served as somewhat of an inspiration to George.  We already know who was reborn under a star.  A bleeding star in this story.  Daenerys Targaryen and the dragons were all reborn when the red star was close to the planet.  She is the King Artur, the person who awakened dragons from stone.  It was not a sword but a dragons pulled from stone in this story.

I would further claim and say Daenerys is Azor Ahai.  

[LynnS]

I'm going to say that Dany is the PWIP; the one who wakes dragons from stone. And the PWIP is the herald for AA, who comes later.  I'm going to say these prophecies are separate but related and the warrior of light, son of fire is yet to appear.

[The Lord of the Crossing]

On 7/5/2021 at 11:49 AM, LynnS said:

I'm going to say that Dany is the PWIP; the one who wakes dragons from stone. And the PWIP is the herald for AA, who comes later.  I'm going to say these prophecies are separate but related and the warrior of light, son of fire is yet to appear.

I don't think so.  Aegon I, Aegon V, Aerys II, Rhaegar, Viserys, were all preparations for Daenerys to be Azor Ahai.  The prophecy is very clear.  Azor Ahai will wake dragons from stone.  Daenerys has done that.  She's not preparation for Azor Ahai, she is Azor Ahai.