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Mark O'Kane

Acrobatics

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Is it just me or a bit weird none of the main characters utilitise speed and agility to win their battles? They mostly just armor themselves and rely on big swords whereas it would be more effective to use light armor and be more mobile? Backflips are non-existent and spin attacks aren't a thing? Can someone shed light or am I being silly?

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Mark O'Kane said:

Backflips are non-existent and spin attacks aren't a thing?

You watch too much of modern movies. In the past the knights and warriors weren't fighting like kung-fu pandas or chinese acrobats.

In the movie industry those guys that create fighting choreography try to make everything to look spectacular, awesome, and not realistic. When people actually fight in a combat where they could be wounded or killed, they don't waste energy for excessive running, jumping, flipping, tricks and other "visual effects" to impress spectators. The real fighting, either hand-to-hand combat, or matches in a sport competitions like boxing or karate or whatever, it all looks plain, boring, unimpressive. Though that's because to fight those people actually have to apply force into their confrontation, and during that confrontation they receive actual traumas and after each hit or punch or attack they feel actuall pain and while fighting they also loose a lot of energy. In movies the characters can move a lot and to get up after getting hit hard or being seriously wounded, because those fighting scenes are filmed thru multiple tries and cuts and new takes, and they don't actually excert as much force as it appears on camera and they dodn't actually sustain any injuries. That's all fake. 

GRRM in his books are writing realistic sword-fighting, not modern special effects movie version of it.

I think that if someone wearing a real armor or a ringmail will try to do a backflip, he can break his spine while doing it.

Edited by Megorova

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you are being silly. like @Magorova said George tries to express realism in his battles not often seen in modern media. get stabbed in the leg, that leg is injured for weeks to months. get shot by a single cross bow bolt, die on the privy. spinning looks cool but its really easy for an enemy to exploit it because the person is then making a very large choreographed movement that exposes their back. similarly backflips looks cool but are more or less useless in a real fight. someone pushes you slightly while your midair, you fall on your face, get overwhelmed and die. its like how jump kicks look cool but in actuality do little damage, because a person needs contact with the ground to express the full force of their physical abilities. Acrobatics break roots and lead to weak strikes.

the closest this to a person using superior agility would be brown when he fought as Tyrion's champion in the vale, in which case being agile meant running away to tire out the person in heavy mail.

an exception to a person competently using acrobatics may be the fight between oberyn martell and the mountain, but we all know how that ended.

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I suppose that makes sense but would not wearing armor not make it very easy to dodge sword slashes and even arrows? I know warhammer blows could be dodged wearing armor as they are famously massive and cumbersome but I definitely agree that I wouldn't be pulling off spin attack but someone with Jaimes skill could as it increases the strike force 

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You might dodge one guy, but a row of them? Or a Jaime who can probably react to any faking? If I was attacked I would, run away. If I couldn’t, I would try and shock them by using my lesser height, lower center of gravity, decent balance, close in under their guard, trip them, and then run away! Use Tyrion bribery. Or Dracarys.

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not wearing armor does make it easier to move, and so in theory would make it easier to dodge a sword stroke, but this advantage is largely exclusive to one on one combat (not a battle) where only one enemy needs to be paid attention to. furthermore armor is in itself a useful tool for getting in strikes. it limits where an enemy can hit you an expect damage, and allows one to get in close to the enemy without the worry of as deadly reprisal. every wound you takes slows you down and humans have more fatal weak points then you think. if a person is competent with a bow you would be better off getting hit in armor than trying to dodge. arrow are hella fast, and in battle you would not be doing one, but enduring a flurry of many.

Jamie in his prime could do it if he was being flashy or in the mind to pull of some over complicated movement, but in truth and with a sword, you will gather more force to add to your blow by simply running at the enemy. it is the same logic as mounted combat, where you are adding the force of the running speed of a horse to the blow of a man. if you had a big hammer and kept on spinning, you would do some damage granted you could hit anything, but again, this leaves your back exposed.

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7 hours ago, Mark O'Kane said:

Is it just me or a bit weird none of the main characters utilitise speed and agility to win their battles? They mostly just armor themselves and rely on big swords whereas it would be more effective to use light armor and be more mobile? Backflips are non-existent and spin attacks aren't a thing? Can someone shed light or am I being silly?

The only consistent with armor and mobility is that it see sawed back and forth over the centuries. It never did a backflip.

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1 hour ago, Mark O'Kane said:

I suppose that makes sense but would not wearing armor not make it very easy to dodge sword slashes and even arrows?

The speed of arrow is 40+ meters per 1 second, the world record of the fastest (human) runner is 100-meters in 9.58 seconds, that's 10.43 meters per 1 second.

Turning and dodging requires time. And the person who is getting attacked can't actually calculate or predict the trajectory of an incomming arrow. Or if there will be many arrows, then trying to dodge them would've been impossible. Because the human body (in case of Usain Bolt, the fastest human) can run in straight line with a speed of 10.43 meters per second, but to turn or dodge or move away to the side with that sort of speed is impossible.

Dodging bullets or even arrows is one of those modern day misconceptions that were created by special effects in action movies.

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The archer is not perfect with speed adjustments. Rickon, zig zag. I would say, don’t bring a bow and arrow to a knife fight. Welsh bowman against armored cavalry in a mud field…bowmen waiting in ambush, now we are talking.

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1 hour ago, Mark O'Kane said:

I suppose that makes sense but would not wearing armor not make it very easy to dodge sword slashes and even arrows? I know warhammer blows could be dodged wearing armor as they are famously massive and cumbersome but I definitely agree that I wouldn't be pulling off spin attack but someone with Jaimes skill could as it increases the strike force 

You dont need to worry much about swords if you're wearing plate armour and even most arrows will be irrelevant.

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Swords generally can penetrate the gaps which is a real worry which happens when Oberyn got the Mountain that time they found so I'm saying maybe just shed the armor for the extra speed as competent swordsmen know exactly where all your weak points are. Maybe using knives to increase slash speed in combo with light armor like leather/studded leather

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11 hours ago, Mark O'Kane said:

Is it just me or a bit weird none of the main characters utilitise speed and agility to win their battles? They mostly just armor themselves and rely on big swords whereas it would be more effective to use light armor and be more mobile? Backflips are non-existent and spin attacks aren't a thing? Can someone shed light or am I being silly?

Main characters? Theres Arya...

Quote

Remember, child, this is not the iron dance of Westeros we are learning, the knight's dance, hacking and hammering, no. This is the bravo's dance, the water dance, swift and sudden.

But we cant all be like Arya. As others noted armor is just too damn effective. Like Jorah vs Bloodrider. Or Barri vs Hizdars bodyguard. The Essosi look at armor as cowardly

Quote

"Only cowards dress in iron," Khrazz declared, circling. No one wore armor in the fighting pits. It was blood the crowds came for: death, dismemberment, and shrieks of agony, the music of the scarlet sands.

Ser Barristan turned with him. "This coward is about to kill you, ser."

But in the Sunset armor is a necessity, and can be seen as cowardly when not on

Quote

The white roses drew back, as men always did at the sight of Victarion Greyjoy armed and armored, his face hidden behind his kraken helm. They were clutching swords and spears and axes, but nine of every ten wore no armor, and the tenth had only a shirt of sewn scales. These are no ironmen, Victarion thought. They still fear drowning.

 

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Posted (edited)
18 minutes ago, Mark O'Kane said:

Swords generally can penetrate the gaps which is a real worry which happens when Oberyn got the Mountain that time they found so I'm saying maybe just shed the armor for the extra speed as competent swordsmen know exactly where all your weak points are. Maybe using knives to increase slash speed in combo with light armor like leather/studded leather

The gaps are hard to pierce, considering that the armoured knight is moving as well. Oberyn was a very competent fighter and was using a spear which gives a massive advantage over swords, I dont think this is a good example at all.

Besides, plate armour is not really that heavy.

Edited by The Hoare

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57 minutes ago, The Hoare said:

Besides, plate armour is not really that heavy.

From wikipedia:

"A complete suit of plate armour made from well-tempered steel would weigh around 15–25 kg (33–55 lb).[4] The wearer remained highly agile and could jump, run and otherwise move freely as the weight of the armour was spread evenly throughout the body. The armour was articulated and covered a man's entire body completely from neck to toe. In the 15th and 16th centuries, plate-armored soldiers were the nucleus of every army."

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My good man. Imagine being in the middle of a busy metropolitan city (new york, london), during rush hour. Now try to do a backflip or even attempt some stretches. You shall see that all these stock brokers in suits are taking up much of the pavement in their urgency to go to work/home. Meanwhile you are there in the middle trying to do some sort of acrobatic move whilst your also pissing off a fair share of men/women in suits because you are literally kicking/hitting them in the face because you decided to play spiderman in the middle of a horde of people.

 

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On 6/12/2021 at 12:55 PM, Mark O'Kane said:

Is it just me or a bit weird none of the main characters utilitise speed and agility to win their battles?

Bronn did when he fought the duel for Tyrion. In a realistic way.

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General consensus seems to be if used well, an acrobatic fighting style using knives and maybe even a spear would defeat most knights as they don't know how to react to maneuvers. I don't recall Bronn using any spins or flips so I think whoever wrote that is confused a bit.... 

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1 hour ago, Mark O'Kane said:

General consensus seems to be if used well, an acrobatic fighting style using knives and maybe even a spear would defeat most knights as they don't know how to react to maneuvers. I don't recall Bronn using any spins or flips so I think whoever wrote that is confused a bit.... 

Try doing that in a fist fight, see how long you’ll last.

Look up Michael pereira, his an MMA fighter that does exactly what you want. Acrobatic, flips all that bullshit. Now you’ll notice him doing all these silly tricks costs him allot. Because it zaps his energy, and you’ll find that stamina is the most important thing in a fight because once you run out of it, you already lost.

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