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Floki of the Ironborn

Rhaenyra's Dumbest Decision

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By far the strangest idea she had, far as I'm concerned, was sending Viserys and Aegon off to Pentos on the Gay Abandon to be ambushed by Three Daughters' fleet, which not only led to Viserys' capture and the death of Aegon's dragon, but also the death of Rhaenyra's eldest son Jace. 

I don't understand why Rhaenyra would choose Pentos of all places to make sure her youngest boys were out of danger. Even if Rhaenyra wasn't smart enough to figure out that Daemon had made a lot of enemies in Essos, Daemon himself should have been able to foresee that danger. He was always smart enough to wriggle out of other problems in his life, so why not that?

Even if the Kingdom of the Three Daughters turning on the blacks was impossible to foresee, it's still awfully risky to put those two Targaryen princes on a boat without any means of escape if something happens. There's always the threats of pirates, ambushes by the greens, storms, and sea monsters.

If anything, Rhaenyra should have sent her kids to the North. They were all confirmed blacks up there, and aside from Dorne, the North is the most easily defended region of Westeros. Viserys and Aegon could have hung out in White Harbour or Winterfell while Jace helped his mother secure the Iron Throne. 

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22 minutes ago, Floki of the Ironborn said:

By far the strangest idea she had, far as I'm concerned, was sending Viserys and Aegon off to Pentos on the Gay Abandon to be ambushed by Three Daughters' fleet, which not only led to Viserys' capture and the death of Aegon's dragon, but also the death of Rhaenyra's eldest son Jace. 

I don't understand why Rhaenyra would choose Pentos of all places to make sure her youngest boys were out of danger. Even if Rhaenyra wasn't smart enough to figure out that Daemon had made a lot of enemies in Essos, Daemon himself should have been able to foresee that danger. He was always smart enough to wriggle out of other problems in his life, so why not that?

Even if the Kingdom of the Three Daughters turning on the blacks was impossible to foresee, it's still awfully risky to put those two Targaryen princes on a boat without any means of escape if something happens. There's always the threats of pirates, ambushes by the greens, storms, and sea monsters.

If anything, Rhaenyra should have sent her kids to the North. They were all confirmed blacks up there, and aside from Dorne, the North is the most easily defended region of Westeros. Viserys and Aegon could have hung out in White Harbour or Winterfell while Jace helped his mother secure the Iron Throne. 

I mean, forging bonds with Essos seems like it’s worth the risks. It was still dangerous, but I don’t think calling it her dumbest decision is fair.

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38 minutes ago, Floki of the Ironborn said:

I don't understand why Rhaenyra would choose Pentos of all places to make sure her youngest boys were out of danger. Even if Rhaenyra wasn't smart enough to figure out that Daemon had made a lot of enemies in Essos, Daemon himself should have been able to foresee that danger. He was always smart enough to wriggle out of other problems in his life, so why not that?

Pentos was actually one of the places where Daemon did not make enemy's but friends, his twin daughters where born there when he and Laena where traveling true Essos after there marriage. 

But more importantly it was not Rhaenyra's decision at all, see the quote below.

The Princess and the Queen

The Prince of Dragonstone also had a care for the safety of his half brothers, Aegon the Younger and Viserys, aged nine and seven. Their father Prince Daemon had made many friends in the Free City of Pentos during his visits there, so Jacaerys reached across the narrow sea to the prince of that city, who agreed to foster the two boys until Rhaenyra had secured the Iron Throne. In the waning days of 129 AC, the young princes boarded the cog Gay Abandon—Aegon with Stormcloud, Viserys clutching his egg—to set sail for Essos. The Sea Snake sent seven of his warships with them as escort, to see that they reached Pentos safely.

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There is also no indication that the Blacks could or should have foreseen the Triarchy's attack. We don't know how Otto contacted them, but one imagines he had secret channels to do this, allowing him to keep the information from the Blacks until it was too late. I'd imagine he sent ravens to trusted friends in Oldtown and on the Arbor who then sailed to the Triarchy to represent Aegon II in person.

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Tbh pentos is literally right there, and it was considered safe. Although sending them north to winterfell would’ve been a much better alternative.

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41 minutes ago, The Young Maester said:

Tbh pentos is literally right there, and it was considered safe. Although sending them north to winterfell would’ve been a much better alternative.

They would have still had to use a ship and it would still have been captured by the Triarchy.

And I'd say that turning to a really neutral power outside of Westeros was a much better choice than trusting this or that Westerosi lord. The the war turned against Rhaenyra the Starks or whoever would, eventually, bend the knee to Aegon II and sell her sons to him.

An actual friend of Daemon's might be less inclined to do this. And you can compare it to Viserys III and Daenerys finding refuge in the Free Cities while chances are pretty bad that they would have found refuge with this or that Westerosi lord after Robert had taken the throne.

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2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

They would have still had to use a ship and it would still have been captured by the Triarchy.

And I'd say that turning to a really neutral power outside of Westeros was a much better choice than trusting this or that Westerosi lord. The the war turned against Rhaenyra the Starks or whoever would, eventually, bend the knee to Aegon II and sell her sons to him.

An actual friend of Daemon's might be less inclined to do this. And you can compare it to Viserys III and Daenerys finding refuge in the Free Cities while chances are pretty bad that they would have found refuge with this or that Westerosi lord after Robert had taken the throne.

Yeah I can see your point. Obviously winterfell is safe in a more short term situation. But if it was for the long term (blacks defeated and hunted down), than it makes sense.

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IMO Rhaenyra and her team could not foresee the attack of the Three Daughters. But sending them to the North and the Vale was a good idea too. 

I believe her most stupid decision is arresting Corlys Velaryon. She lost a great deal of army and fleet and since she had not found the royal gold she had no money. 

Second most stupid decision is losing the people of Kings Landing. It cost her dragons and one son.

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Posted (edited)

Wasn't that decision brought by her son Jacaerys and Corlys Velaryon as Rhenyra herself was incapacitated being distraught due to death of her son.

Quote

The Prince of Dragonstone also had a care for the safety of his half-brothers, Aegon the Younger and Viserys, aged nine and seven. Their father, Prince Daemon, had made many friends in the Free City of Pentos during his visits there, so Jacaerys reached across the narrow sea to the prince of that city, who agreed to foster the two boys until Rhaenyra had secured the Iron Throne. In the waning days of 129 AC, the young princes boarded the cog Gay Abandon—Aegon with Stormcloud, Viserys clutching his egg—to set sail for Essos. The Sea Snake sent seven of his warships with them as escort, to see that they reached Pentos safely.

Jacaerys is basically a grown man - being 16  and he chose himself to go in battle- he and his milk-brother Daeron the Daring both have some elements of Robb Stark character.

Edited by Eltharion21

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50 minutes ago, Eltharion21 said:

Wasn't that decision brought by her son Jacaerys and Corlys Velaryon as Rhenyra herself was incapacitated being distraught due to death of her son.

Jacaerys is basically a grown man - being 16  and he chose himself to go in battle- he and his milk-brother Daeron the Daring both have some elements of Robb Stark character.

Jace isn't sixteen. He is fourteen throughout most of 129 AC, and barely fifteen when he dies. The same with Daeron the Daring.

3 hours ago, Endymion I Targaryen said:

IMO Rhaenyra and her team could not foresee the attack of the Three Daughters. But sending them to the North and the Vale was a good idea too.

She did send Joffrey and Rhaena to the Vale. It seems the plan for Aegon and Viserys to keep them out of the war completely.

3 hours ago, Endymion I Targaryen said:

I believe her most stupid decision is arresting Corlys Velaryon. She lost a great deal of army and fleet and since she had not found the royal gold she had no money.

That was a pretty big mistake.

3 hours ago, Endymion I Targaryen said:

Second most stupid decision is losing the people of Kings Landing. It cost her dragons and one son.

She should have named a different Master of Coin and it seems clear that the rioters who murdered Lord Celtigar may have done that in any case. But the leaders of the main riots - the Shepherd and Ser Perkin the Flea - would have risen in any case. The Shepherd hated all Targaryens and their dragons. His crusade was a holy crusade against the demonic dragons and their masters, not a crusade specifically against Rhaenyra. That's why he slew three Green dragons and only two Black dragons (and Syrax only because she was stupid as hell). And people followed him because the fear of the dragons burning down the city drove them mad. They had to live with that fear since the beginning of the Dance.

And Ser Perkin the Flea and his pretender were puppets of Larys Strong the entire time. If Varys were to stage a riot against King Tommen's rule in KL it would also be a success because the man is pretty good at his job ... regardless whether Cersei, Mace, or whoever else might be in charge made mistakes or not.

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Even if there are Addams.
The red seeding was really stupid.
Giving dragons to people they don't know is not good at all, it's way too much power.

Logically Baela was supposed to take Vermithor and Rhaena Silverwing.
But for some reason, those two only wanted newborns.


 

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Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, Hug-hammer said:

Even if there are Addams.
The red seeding was really stupid.
Giving dragons to people they don't know is not good at all, it's way too much power.

Logically Baela was supposed to take Vermithor and Rhaena Silverwing.
But for some reason, those two only wanted newborns.

The treatment of the dragonseeds was stupid afterwards. Addam and Alyn and Nettles weren't truly known, but Ulf was a man-at-arms on Dragonstone and Hugh a blacksmith's bastard, meaning that folks would have known them, although not necessarily Rhaenyra and Jace but their people.

Edited by Lord Varys

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12 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Jace isn't sixteen. He is fourteen throughout most of 129 AC, and barely fifteen when he dies. The same with Daeron the Daring.

Robb Stark was fifteen during the War of the Five Kings in 298 , he is considered a King despite his young age.  

On his wiki it for Jacearys says : 

Born In 114 AC[1]
Died In 130 AC[N 1]

While for Robb Stark it is :

 

Born In 283 AC[8], at Riverrun
Died In 299 AC (aged 16)[8]

I'm average at maths, but pretty sure detracting those numbers gives 16 in both cases.

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2 hours ago, Eltharion21 said:

Robb Stark was fifteen during the War of the Five Kings in 298 , he is considered a King despite his young age.  

On his wiki it for Jacearys says : 

Born In 114 AC[1]
Died In 130 AC[N 1]

While for Robb Stark it is :

 

Born In 283 AC[8], at Riverrun
Died In 299 AC (aged 16)[8]

I'm average at maths, but pretty sure detracting those numbers gives 16 in both cases.

Jacaerys was born at the end of 114 AC and died on the fifth day of 130 AC, so he had become 15 shortly before.

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Eltharion21 said:

Robb Stark was fifteen during the War of the Five Kings in 298 , he is considered a King despite his young age.  

On his wiki it for Jacearys says : 

Born In 114 AC[1]
Died In 130 AC[N 1]

While for Robb Stark it is :

 

Born In 283 AC[8], at Riverrun
Died In 299 AC (aged 16)[8]

I'm average at maths, but pretty sure detracting those numbers gives 16 in both cases.

As @The Wondering Wolf has already said, Jace is born late in 114 AC, which means he turned only fifteen late in 129 AC, i.e. shortly before his own death.

The print of FaB changed most of those errors. For instance, Jace is now on the cusp of his fifteenth nameday when he plans the attack on KL, not on the cusp of his sixteenth nameday which would have been late in 130 AC, not late in 129 AC.

Similarly, Aegon III is only eight years old when the Dance starts, since he would only turn nine late in 129 AC. He is also only ten years old when he is crowned king in 131 AC, and not yet eleven.

I certainly can see some parallels between Jace and Robb. However, Robb eventually becomes a lord in his own right and then a king, whereas Jace just acts the way Robb did while Catelyn was mad with grief following Bran's fall. Rhaenyra is incapacitated by her stillbirth and her subsequent grief for Luke somewhat longer, but Jace is in no way a king ... at best a rather powerful heir acting in his mother's name for a time.

Edited by Lord Varys

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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I certainly can see some parallels between Jace and Robb. However, Robb eventually becomes a lord in his own right and then a king, whereas Jace just acts the way Robb did while Catelyn was mad with grief following Bran's fall. Rhaenyra is incapacitated by her stillbirth and her subsequent grief for Luke somewhat longer, but Jace is in no way a king ... at best a rather powerful heir acting in his mother's name for a time.

There are some parallels not the least breaking his betrothal vows.  My opinion is that Prince of Dragonstone when his monarch is incapacitated holds power to match "King of the North" or more.

Funny thing Richard Madden who played Robb Stark is playing Ikaris in Marvel Eternals - inspired by mythological Icarus, and Jacaerys death is quite similar to that with flying too close to danger.

23 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

She did send Joffrey and Rhaena to the Vale. It seems the plan for Aegon and Viserys to keep them out of the war completely.

Jace has sent Joffrey and Rhaena also.

Quote

 

Four living sons remained to her. “My strength and my consolation,” the queen called them. Aegon the Younger and Viserys, Prince Daemon’s sons, were nine and seven, respectively. Prince Joffrey was but eleven…but Jacaerys, Prince of Dragonstone, was on the cusp of his fifteenth nameday.

It was Jace who came to the fore now, late in the year 129 AC. Mindful of the promise he had made to the Maiden of the Vale, he ordered Prince Joffrey to fly to Gulltown with Tyraxes. Munkun suggests that Jace’s desire to keep his brother far from the fighting was paramount in this decision. This did not sit well with Joffrey, who was determined to prove himself in battle. Only when told that he was being sent to defend the Vale against King Aegon’s dragons did his brother grudgingly consent to go. Rhaena, the thirteen-year-old daughter of Prince Daemon by Laena Velaryon, was chosen to accompany him. Known as Rhaena of Pentos, for the city of her birth, she was no dragonrider, her hatchling having died some years before, but she brought three dragon’s eggs with her to the Vale, where she prayed nightly for their hatching.

 

 

Edited by Eltharion21

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Eltharion21 said:

There are some parallels not the least breaking his betrothal vows.  My opinion is that Prince of Dragonstone when his monarch is incapacitated holds power to match "King of the North" or more.

I don't really buy it that Jace married Sara Snow but you are right that this story about him is reminiscent of Robb's adventure with Jeyne. I'd say that with Rhaenyra-Jace George played up the dynamics he had with Cat-Robb at the beginning of AGoT. Rhaenyra's depression lasted longer or may have lasted longer (we don't have much details on the inner workings at Dragonstone at that time) but it seems to be very similar to Cat's descent into half-madness. She no longer cared about anything but Bran and Robb really had to make every decision for her.

And like Catelyn was woken from that state by the assassin, Rhaenyra shook off her depression when she received word of Jace's death.

But Robb as a ruler is completely different than Jace. Jace could have grown into a better version of Robb if he had lived, one imagines, if he had lived longer.

Quote

Jace has sent Joffrey and Rhaena also.

Oh, I know that, it was just all done in Rhaenyra's name and, one assumes, not against her will. The idea that Jace could send away three of her sons and one of her stepdaughters without informing his mother seems to be pretty far-fetched. And we also hear that Rhaenyra was present/involved enough to quarrel with Corlys after Rhaenys' death and to legitimize Addam and Alyn of Hull.

Edited by Lord Varys

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