Three Kingdoms and ASOIAF

[Lordi Nietos]

I'm tinkering with comparing the Romance of the Three Kingdoms and ASOIAF. I'm not the first to notice some similarities, though some of the posts I've seen have come up with a different set of parallels. I'm not saying I think GRRM took inspiration from RoTK. I don't even know if he's read it, he seems to be more interested in western European history. I think these parallels are a result of both stories playing with the same archetypes.

Dong Zhuo and Aerys II
Dong Zhuo wasn't the actual emperor but the regent so in that he could be more like Cersei, but overall he is very much like Aerys. Zhuo managed to convince a famous warrior named Lu Bu to kill his adopted father and become Zhuos bodyguard. Jaime didn't kill Tywin and was younger, but he did join the Kingsguard without Tywins approval.

He went on to be a spectacularly bad regent, executing any dissenters and forcing everyone else to drink their blood etc.. Regional warlords formed a coalition to take him down. After some back and forth Zhuo burned the capital Luoyang and drove it's people west to settle in Chang'an. Somewhat less lethal than what Aerys had planned, but nobody stopped him from going through with it. The coalition against Zhuo wasn't as solid as the one agains Aerys and fell apart soon after failing to pursue him west.

In Chang'an things continued much as they had in Luoyang, until one of the ministers managed to get his adoptive daughter to form a love triangle with Lu Bu and Dong Zhuo, causing the bodyguard to kill his charge.

This summary omits some fairly important stuff, like deposing one child emperor in favour of another, to emphasize the main beats.

1. The power in the land is to some extent nuts.

2. A coalition of regional powers rises against him.

3. Capital burning seems fun to him.

4. Gets killed by his bodyguard.

 

Cao Cao and Tywin
During a time of strife in China Cao Cao was the prime minister of the Han emperor. Always hogging more power, but never taking the step of actually usurping the throne. He was mostly competent but very authoritarian and sometimes brutal, though as far as I can see he did less sensless rape, slaughter and food destruction than Tywin.

The biggest parallel in my mind is sending his field commander to kill the empress, and then marrying his daughter to the emperor. The murder was less brutal and with Tywin the guy he made a widower wasn't also his new son in law, but overall I think he's a decent match.

 

I'm mulling over more parallels beyond these, the biggest being the Sun/Stark families and Liu Bei/Dany. The wiki points out that Lo Bu of the Golden Empire of Dawn is a reference to Lu Bu, but as you see above I think Jaime pre-hand loss is a better fit as the stories and characters go.

[Universal Sword Donor]

1 hour ago, Lordi Nietos said:

I'm tinkering with comparing the Romance of the Three Kingdoms and ASOIAF. I'm not the first to notice some similarities, though some of the posts I've seen have come up with a different set of parallels. I'm not saying I think GRRM took inspiration from RoTK. I don't even know if he's read it, he seems to be more interested in western European history. I think these parallels are a result of both stories playing with the same archetypes.

Dong Zhuo and Aerys II
Dong Zhuo wasn't the actual emperor but the regent so in that he could be more like Cersei, but overall he is very much like Aerys. Zhuo managed to convince a famous warrior named Lu Bu to kill his adopted father and become Zhuos bodyguard. Jaime didn't kill Tywin and was younger, but he did join the Kingsguard without Tywins approval.

He went on to be a spectacularly bad regent, executing any dissenters and forcing everyone else to drink their blood etc.. Regional warlords formed a coalition to take him down. After some back and forth Zhuo burned the capital Luoyang and drove it's people west to settle in Chang'an. Somewhat less lethal than what Aerys had planned, but nobody stopped him from going through with it. The coalition against Zhuo wasn't as solid as the one agains Aerys and fell apart soon after failing to pursue him west.

In Chang'an things continued much as they had in Luoyang, until one of the ministers managed to get his adoptive daughter to form a love triangle with Lu Bu and Dong Zhuo, causing the bodyguard to kill his charge.

This summary omits some fairly important stuff, like deposing one child emperor in favour of another, to emphasize the main beats.

1. The power in the land is to some extent nuts.

2. A coalition of regional powers rises against him.

3. Capital burning seems fun to him.

4. Gets killed by his bodyguard.

 

Cao Cao and Tywin
During a time of strife in China Cao Cao was the prime minister of the Han emperor. Always hogging more power, but never taking the step of actually usurping the throne. He was mostly competent but very authoritarian and sometimes brutal, though as far as I can see he did less sensless rape, slaughter and food destruction than Tywin.

The biggest parallel in my mind is sending his field commander to kill the empress, and then marrying his daughter to the emperor. The murder was less brutal and with Tywin the guy he made a widower wasn't also his new son in law, but overall I think he's a decent match.

 

I'm mulling over more parallels beyond these, the biggest being the Sun/Stark families and Liu Bei/Dany. The wiki points out that Lo Bu of the Golden Empire of Dawn is a reference to Lu Bu, but as you see above I think Jaime pre-hand loss is a better fit as the stories and characters go.

Pretty sure Dong is Aegon IV

[Lordi Nietos]

10 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Pretty sure Dong is Aegon IV

Dong Zhuo has some more Aegonlike features like being fat, but I think the things I listed tip the scale to Aerys.

[Universal Sword Donor]

3 hours ago, Lordi Nietos said:

Dong Zhuo has some more Aegonlike features like being fat, but I think the things I listed tip the scale to Aerys.

Think more, uh, sophomoric

[Hugorfonics]

23 hours ago, Lordi Nietos said:

I'm tinkering with comparing the Romance of the Three Kingdoms and ASOIAF. I'm not the first to notice some similarities, though some of the posts I've seen have come up with a different set of parallels. I'm not saying I think GRRM took inspiration from RoTK. I don't even know if he's read it, he seems to be more interested in western European history. I think these parallels are a result of both stories playing with the same archetypes.

Dong Zhuo and Aerys II
Dong Zhuo wasn't the actual emperor but the regent so in that he could be more like Cersei, but overall he is very much like Aerys. Zhuo managed to convince a famous warrior named Lu Bu to kill his adopted father and become Zhuos bodyguard. Jaime didn't kill Tywin and was younger, but he did join the Kingsguard without Tywins approval.

He went on to be a spectacularly bad regent, executing any dissenters and forcing everyone else to drink their blood etc.. Regional warlords formed a coalition to take him down. After some back and forth Zhuo burned the capital Luoyang and drove it's people west to settle in Chang'an. Somewhat less lethal than what Aerys had planned, but nobody stopped him from going through with it. The coalition against Zhuo wasn't as solid as the one agains Aerys and fell apart soon after failing to pursue him west.

In Chang'an things continued much as they had in Luoyang, until one of the ministers managed to get his adoptive daughter to form a love triangle with Lu Bu and Dong Zhuo, causing the bodyguard to kill his charge.

This summary omits some fairly important stuff, like deposing one child emperor in favour of another, to emphasize the main beats.

1. The power in the land is to some extent nuts.

2. A coalition of regional powers rises against him.

3. Capital burning seems fun to him.

4. Gets killed by his bodyguard.

 

Cao Cao and Tywin
During a time of strife in China Cao Cao was the prime minister of the Han emperor. Always hogging more power, but never taking the step of actually usurping the throne. He was mostly competent but very authoritarian and sometimes brutal, though as far as I can see he did less sensless rape, slaughter and food destruction than Tywin.

The biggest parallel in my mind is sending his field commander to kill the empress, and then marrying his daughter to the emperor. The murder was less brutal and with Tywin the guy he made a widower wasn't also his new son in law, but overall I think he's a decent match.

 

I'm mulling over more parallels beyond these, the biggest being the Sun/Stark families and Liu Bei/Dany. The wiki points out that Lo Bu of the Golden Empire of Dawn is a reference to Lu Bu, but as you see above I think Jaime pre-hand loss is a better fit as the stories and characters go.

Aerys has some Dong qualities, i am a big believer in the Lu Bu kingslayer parallel. Not only are they clear kingslayers (remember when liu bei told cao cao to adopt lu bu, cuz it works so well lol) but their also brash, plan there schemes over women and are arguably the greatest warrior, um, ever. (If we ignore Zhao Yun and Sandor and them) But shit doesnt pop off when Aerys croaks, not like Robert.

A fat drunk unceremoniously threw away tradition and  entered the capitol while his dogs committed barbarism. (Yuan shao and Cao Cao slaughtered the eunuchs/ non bearded men. Dragonspawn) The lord achieved the impossible and is a foot note for the heroes who follow, because his wife (concubine) decided to murder him.

 

Cao and Tywin looks good at first too. Being Hand for like, ever, and having his own family on the dragons throne. But that, and his ruthlessness is where the similarities stop.

Whatd Cao conquer? Lots. Tywin? Little. Whats Tywins noble blood like? The noblest. Caos? Less.

Now im not saying Petyrs gonna conquer china, from like the great wall to dorne, but id get out the way. Littlefinger imo has the right amount of nobility blood to be Mengde. Their also beyond brilliant, shrewd, calculating, and move with such ease that they seem to be playing a different game then their opponents. Plus that chaos line in affc, good thing I handle chaos so well ( or something). Thats straight out Cao Caos mouth. 

 

Young Wolf/Little conqueror, son of one of the noblest, famous and phenomenal warriors/commanders of their time, had no father before he turned 20. Murdered. (Not just a famous dad but a famous family. Descended from like a THOUSAND YEAR old legend who totally existed cuz he wrote a book/built a wall thats still in use [sun tzu] but the likelihood theyre related...) But his uncles alive, mothers brother in the south is under attack. Our hero goes south and in ridiculous time carved himself a kingdom. Alas this unparalleled war leader was murdered before he reached adult hood, however his younger sibling takes control and their merit ascends them to the heavens.

 

The dragon. (Dont tell me GRRM never read rotk lol) A few hundred years ago the land was ruled by multiple kings, thats when the first dragon came. (Liu Bang. Very cool dude) A few hundred years go by and your Wang Mangs and Blackfyres didnt leave the land the way they found it. All can see, the age of the dragon is done.

But the blood still flows in the scion. A poor one, bordering on random hobo. This dragon knows right and wrong though, knows its land needs help and knows it belongs to the dragon. Thanks in help to their blood of their blood, fearsome warriors who in all religion and ceremony vowed to walk the same path, achieve great victories and die the same day as their sibling, the dragon conquered vast land and saved many from doom. Though the scions greatest contribution besides its benevolence is waking the dragon. Zhuge Liang is Drogon, theres no way around that.

Quote

“Ser Jorah, you say we have no food left. If I march west, how can I feed my freedmen?”

“You can’t. I am sorry, Khaleesi. They must feed themselves or starve. Many and more will die along the march, yes. That will be hard, but there is no way to save them. We need to put this scorched earth well behind us.”

Dany had left a trail of corpses behind her when she crossed the red waste. It was a sight she never meant to see again. “No,” she said. “I will not march my people off to die.”

Quote

The generals of Liu Bei said, "Jiangling is a defensible shelter, but with this crowd we can only advance very slowly, and when can we reach the city? If Cao Cao pursue, we shall be in a parlous state. Our counsel is to leave the people to their fate for a time and press on to Jiangling."

But Liu Bei wept, saying, "The success of every great enterprise depends upon humanity. How can I abandon these people who have joined me?"

(and that spouse record! Idk who I feel worse for, Drogo dying by his wifes decision or Liu Beis wife dying by her husbands. Then theres Hizdar with a sword at his throat and Sun Shangxiang with a sword in her bed! Just uh fyi, dont marry a dragon.)

[Lordi Nietos]

3 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Aerys has some Dong qualities, i am a big believer in the Lu Bu kingslayer parallel. Not only are they clear kingslayers (remember when liu bei told cao cao to adopt lu bu, cuz it works so well lol) but their also brash, plan there schemes over women and are arguably the greatest warrior, um, ever. (If we ignore Zhao Yun and Sandor and them) But shit doesnt pop off when Aerys croaks, not like Robert.

Lu Bu didn't kill any emperors or kings, so IDK if he's a clear kingslayer but I do think he's a parallel. Shit doesn't pop off when Dong Zhuo dies either, shit was already in full swing being fanned all over the place.

4 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Whatd Cao conquer? Lots. Tywin? Little.

Cao Cao reconquered rebellious provinces, same as Tywin. If that matters.

4 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Now im not saying Petyrs gonna conquer china, from like the great wall to dorne, but id get out the way. Littlefinger imo has the right amount of nobility blood to be Mengde. Their also beyond brilliant, shrewd, calculating, and move with such ease that they seem to be playing a different game then their opponents. Plus that chaos line in affc, good thing I handle chaos so well ( or something). Thats straight out Cao Caos mouth. 

Good, because neither did Cao Cao, there where still three de facto kingdoms when he died. Littlefinger may have the same amount of nobility. but that's where their similarities in family end: unlike Cao Cao and Tywin he has none. No brothers or cousins leading armies where he sends them. Tywin was playing a different game from Robb, so Littlefinger isn't exactly alone there either. Both being characters who thrive in chaos is a good point.

4 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Young Wolf/Little conqueror, son of one of the noblest, famous and phenomenal warriors/commanders of their time, had no father before he turned 20. Murdered. (Not just a famous dad but a famous family. Descended from like a THOUSAND YEAR old legend who totally existed cuz he wrote a book/built a wall thats still in use [sun tzu] but the likelihood theyre related...) But his uncles alive, mothers brother in the south is under attack. Our hero goes south and in ridiculous time carved himself a kingdom. Alas this unparalleled war leader was murdered before he reached adult hood, however his younger sibling takes control and their merit ascends them to the heavens.

These are some of the parallels I alluded to. Another is Zhou Yu/Jon Snow, the sort of but not really brother that outlives the young conqueror. At first I thought you meant someone thinks Sun Tzu built the Great Wall, but that's referring just to Builder Bran I guess? Would have been the first time I hear someone thinking Sun Tzu had something to do with that.

4 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Dont tell me GRRM never read rotk lol

I'm not telling anything besides my own lack of assumptions. But whenever I've seen GRRM refer to IRL history it has been Europe, usually England.

The march with civilians others see only as hungry mouths is one of the parallels with Dany. Another is gathering non-blood family, Liu Bei getting his bros and Dany adopting everyone as her children. Dany I think is stronger in the knowing right from wrong department, but I admit my gripes with Liu Bei are largely subjective.

[Lordi Nietos]

13 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Think more, uh, sophomoric

"Aegonlike features" covers all of that.

[Hugorfonics]

5 hours ago, Lordi Nietos said:

Lu Bu didn't kill any emperors or kings, so IDK if he's a clear kingslayer but I do think he's a parallel.

Dong was on his way to his coronation, or so he thought. He may not have been emperor, but he basically was. 

5 hours ago, Lordi Nietos said:

Shit doesn't pop off when Dong Zhuo dies either, shit was already in full swing being fanned all over the place.

Not really. Sun Jian went south with his seal, where liu biao does murder him but its not full scale war. Cao fights with the alliance instead of putting Tao Qians cities to the sword. Liu Bei too is part of the alliance. The Yuan brothers are working together, etc

Yuan Shao and Gongsan Zan do go to war but its not resolved till years later

Once Cao takes the emperor business as usual stops, but before things arent much worse then the yellow turbans or the 10 eunuchs

5 hours ago, Lordi Nietos said:

Lu Bu didn't kill any emperors or kings, so IDK if he's a clear kingslayer but I do think he's a parallel. Shit doesn't pop off when Dong Zhuo dies either, shit was already in full swing being fanned all over the place.

Cao Cao reconquered rebellious provinces, same as Tywin. If that matters.

Good, because neither did Cao Cao, there where still three de facto kingdoms when he died.

Lol so 3/5th of china? Give or take a riverland

5 hours ago, Lordi Nietos said:

Good, because neither did Cao Cao, there where still three de facto kingdoms when he died. Littlefinger may have the same amount of nobility. but that's where their similarities in family end: unlike Cao Cao and Tywin he has none. No brothers or cousins leading armies where he sends them. Tywin was playing a different game from Robb, so Littlefinger isn't exactly alone there either. Both being characters who thrive in chaos is a good point.

Theres no Cao Rens or Xiahou Yuans, true. But that rags to riches story is too prevalent to overlook imo. Especially since their rags when compared to Yuan and Lannister, not like 99% of the smallfolk population

5 hours ago, Lordi Nietos said:

Cao Cao reconquered rebellious provinces, same as Tywin. If that matters

Whatd Tywin conquer? 

Jaime conquered the Riverlands, under Tommen.

5 hours ago, Lordi Nietos said:

These are some of the parallels I alluded to. Another is Zhou Yu/Jon Snow, the sort of but not really brother that outlives the young conqueror

Hmm. Both are nasty commanders, whos victory is the definition of legendary. Brave, loyal with bouts of anger.

But while Jon is the wisest in whatever room hes in, Zhou Yus unfortunately not. Jealous, petty and, most importantly, does not see the larger threat... Actually maybe thats exactly what he saw lol. (Cao is Mance while Others are Zhuge Liang) not bad...

(Zhou Gongjin is my favorite character in rotk btw, above Cao Mengde, Zhang Yide and Wei Yan, they do my mans so dirty. I dont even think they give his style lol)

5 hours ago, Lordi Nietos said:

At first I thought you meant someone thinks Sun Tzu built the Great Wall, but that's referring just to Builder Bran I guess? Would have been the first time I hear someone thinking Sun Tzu had something to do with that

Nah. Great wall is older. Well, the first few stones are. Word Builder was Stark.

5 hours ago, Lordi Nietos said:

I'm not telling anything besides my own lack of assumptions. But whenever I've seen GRRM refer to IRL history it has been Europe, usually England

I was just joking. But honestly, wall to the north. Roughly the size of Han China. Theres lots of War of Roses, mainly Sansa Warwick. But Liu Bei Dany is too on point to be a coincidence imo. Those Dothraki Bloodriders, Guan Yu and Zhang Fei

5 hours ago, Lordi Nietos said:

The march with civilians others see only as hungry mouths is one of the parallels with Dany. Another is gathering non-blood family, Liu Bei getting his bros and Dany adopting everyone as her children. Dany I think is stronger in the knowing right from wrong department, but I admit my gripes with Liu Bei are largely subjective

hes a large eared villain. Honor because of politics... And now we're cynical as Cao Cao lol. When I first read asoiaf I was really sour on Ned. After watching 2010s 3Kingdoms I was sour on Liu Bei. After reading rotk, I decided Ned wasnt that bad lol.

I think Liu Bei knows what others think is right and wrong while Dany does what she thinks is best. Which sounds bad but in practice its probably more moral then Liu Beis campaigns

[Universal Sword Donor]

Tywin conquered Tarbeck and Reyne land, led forces in the GJ rebellion and conquered the southern RL when Jaime went north

[Hugorfonics]

35 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Tywin conquered Tarbeck and Reyne land

True. Thats like, a couple of hundred square miles. Maybe a thousand?

38 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

led forces in the GJ rebellion

Word. He shoulda led his navy though, instead of giving Victarion is very own Huang Gai escapade. Huh, got red cliffed. Thats pretty cao caoish 

42 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

and conquered the southern RL when Jaime went north

So like, Harrenhall and Riverrun? I guess, Jaime loses whatever he took around Riverrun very quickly. Then Gregor dutifully hands over his Hall of Kings to Tywin, who proceeds to give it to his turncloak goat. Better then a butcher.

 

Cao would hire a butcher if he had talent though. And for all the hype that Tywin the commander gets all I see is a Sima Yi, scared to fight the underwhelming army. (Not that Sima Yi didnt win the gameOthrones or anything) I just see the two warlords too differently, Cao liked to laugh and write poetry, can you imagine Tywin writing poetry? If anything Tywins like Cao Cao just less cool in almost all aspects

[Lordi Nietos]

I suppose you think Littlefinger is a big fan of poetry then?

[Hugorfonics]

11 hours ago, Lordi Nietos said:

I suppose you think Littlefinger is a big fan of poetry then?

 

Quote

Come to the Godswood tonight, if you want to go home.

Petyt told Dontos to be a Florian to Sansas Jonquil, so Petyr definitely understands the power of words and stories.

Ok, our hero, whos no hero but a satan in flesh, started off as a boy (whos father took him to the local soothsayer and heard an amazingly outlandish future) and when this satan boy became a young man... He acted in romance, honor, and all around morality earning a reputation of a fool who puts his own life down for right vs wrong.

(Cao cao attempts an assassination on Dong Zhuo while Petyr duels Brandon for Cats hand)

This preliminary Mendge Littlfinger move is so out of character for our two now anti heroes. Another startling comparison

[Universal Sword Donor]

22 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

True. Thats like, a couple of hundred square miles. Maybe a thousand?

Word. He shoulda led his navy though, instead of giving Victarion is very own Huang Gai escapade. Huh, got red cliffed. Thats pretty cao caoish 

So like, Harrenhall and Riverrun? I guess, Jaime loses whatever he took around Riverrun very quickly. Then Gregor dutifully hands over his Hall of Kings to Tywin, who proceeds to give it to his turncloak goat. Better then a butcher.

I'd have to check but I'm fairly certain he took the castles of multiple RL (Blackwood, Pinkmaiden, Brackens castle, et al).

[Hugorfonics]

1 hour ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

I'd have to check but I'm fairly certain he took the castles of multiple RL (Blackwood, Pinkmaiden, Brackens castle, et al).

Word. He took Raventree

Quote

"Your brother has been covering himself with glory," his father said. "He smashed the Lords Vance and Piper at the Golden Tooth, and met the massed power of the Tullys under the walls of Riverrun. The lords of the Trident have been put to rout. Ser Edmure Tully was taken captive, with many of his knights and bannermen. Lord Blackwood led a few survivors back to Riverrun, where Jaime has them under siege. The rest fled to their own strongholds."

"Your father and I have been marching on each in turn," Ser Kevan said. "With Lord Blackwood gone, Raventree fell at once, and Lady Whent yielded Harrenhal for want of men to defend it. Ser Gregor burnt out the Pipers and the Brackens …"

Still these momentarily gains isnt the same as conquering, as every castle falls back into rebel hands within months. Cao Cao on the other hand conquered land that (for the most part) stayed relatively calm for like 100 years

[Universal Sword Donor]

14 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Word. He took Raventree

Still these momentarily gains isnt the same as conquering, as every castle falls back into rebel hands within months. Cao Cao on the other hand conquered land that (for the most part) stayed relatively calm for like 100 years

Yeah it's a diff type of conflict, internal vs external, but Cao Cao definitely had a better resume

[Hugorfonics]

On 6/18/2021 at 7:28 AM, Universal Sword Donor said:

Yeah it's a diff type of conflict, internal vs external, but Cao Cao definitely had a better resume

Idk. One of the major similarities between these two warlords was there ability to merge their house with the state, thusly combining internal and external into one. (Tywin fills KL with Lannisters and when Joff weds hes draped in crimson. Cao literaly moves the capital to his house)

 

Cao caos resume, is like, hundred of thousands killed, millions ruled and tens of thousands of miles under his sandals. Oh, one more thing. He lost.

Now despite the disdain I have for Tywin military, politically and personally, he did not lose. (I wouldnt say he won. But he clearly didnt lose.) Tywins enemies, Rhegar, Robert and Robb all dead in large thanks to Tywin. But Caos enemies Sun Quan and Liu Bei are as alive as they were at Red Cliffs, and after Cao dies are 5 minutes removed from declaring themselves emperors.