The Power of a God: Prophecy, Predestination, and Free Will

[Targaryeninkingslanding]

So far at least two "god" have shown powers related to prophecy and time. They are the Red God, R'hollar, and the Old Gods of ancient Weirwood.  

The Red God shows it followers glimpses of the future, past, and present; what can be, what may be, what must be. If we assume the the red god is in fact a god and not just people associating a magic with non existant divine, then R'hollar is likely able to choose what it shows its followers, including visions that it, as a prophetic being, knows will not come to pass.

Time works differently for a Wierwood. While the past may naturally effect the future, as bran and his diving into the past has shown, the future can in at least some small way, interact with the past. This then creates a sort of naturally emerging boot strap paradox. If a weirwood is aware of its future (as a god) or the conciseness of children of the forrest is controlling this power, they too would likely have the ability to mold the future and learn things from the future that may aid their cause.

so we have what are presumably two gods with influence over time. 

Why does this matter? Well, nothing says a god has to be inherently good. for a creature to be a god they do not need to be omni-pontent, or omni-present, but simply a powerful being that exerts its influence over the world dissimilar to how men and animals exert influence. Having said that, what a god desires does not need to be dissimilar to men or kings, who may desire control/power. What is the Danger of a divine being that has such desires, and had the power to influence time?

Well, have you ever seen The Matrix? in the matrix movie there is a character called oracle, who is an oracle. in the seen where she meets the protagonist Neo, she tells him that it is fine that he broke a vase. confused, neo turns to look  around and accidentally breaks a vase. The oracle then addresses the question Neo is left wondering; "would he have broken the vase still if she had said nothing." IN that moment the oracle has defeated free will and exploited prophecy to create conditions to her liking.

a being the ability of foresight does not need to use it benevolently. In a world lacking predestination, a creature of perfect prophecy could share their power, be if true or false prophecy, to create conditions to their liking, just as a creature that exist through time non-linearly may be able to influence the world. They are functionally trying to create their own vision of the world they control completely, because they can choose what happens.

And so we have two "gods" trying to do the same thing, control the world via a power similar to omnipotent vision of time and space (but perhaps only over exerted swaths of the world). If this is the case, it is beyond understandable why these two forces fight each other, and for the sake of free will, why neither must ever win.

[CamiloRP]

I love this subject, and I posted this Meera wuote here, many, many times:

 

Quote

"Why would the gods send a warning if we can't heed it and change what's to come?"

(ACOK, Bran V)

 

George thinks about this things and has written about them in the past. I have posed that there are three types of predictions:

1- carrying information from far away: like when Bran and Rickon dream of Ned in the crypts, they take it as a prediction, but Ned was already dead. I think the 'prophetic' powers use this visions to gain credibility, as they will come true no matter what, cause they already have. 

2- Instruction manuals: like the prince who was promised, maybe the 'signs' of the prince who was promised (you know, dead spouse, bleeding star, salt, smoke, etc) are not predictions of the future PWWP, but instructions on how to became the PWWP, as in 'do this and you will be extremely powerful' or something like that.

3- manipulations: once the person who receives the visions fully trusts in the sender, making them do the sender's will by sending more visions is extremely easy

[Mourning Star]

A few thoughts come to mind immediately

It isn't clear to me that there are "gods" in ASoIaF. Obviously, how one defines "gods" will have a large impact on one's opinion here.

The Old Gods seem to be an amalgamation of the spirits of the dead, housed in the weirwoods. The nameless faceless gods of the greenwood don't seem to be a single consciousness with a plan.

While there is clearly magic that works in ASoIaF, attributing it to a god is harder.

I'm not sure I see any evidence that r'hloo is real at all. Blood magic, sure. Fire magic, sure. But, actual evidence of a god behind it? Not so sure.

As for seeing the future, or changing the past for that matter, the nature of Martin's visions inherently provides an out.

I don't think we have been given any clear hard visions of the future. By using symbolism there is an inherent element of interpretation which, in itself, is a form of free will.

[Aejohn the Conqueroo]

 

I think that the example of the Iron Born and their holy CPR was to show us a divinity that we could see through.  All of the gods of westeros are similar I think in that they have been created to explain phenomena like seeing in flames or people going into trees and living bizzarrly long omniscient lives, just like in the real world we cooked up gods to explain day and night and whatever phenomena we could see but not explain.  I don't think there's a great Other pushing the Others to the wall and beyond, but there might be a machavellian bastard who got his hands on the tools of the supposed gods and used them to manipulate them to his own purposes. 

Same as Rh'llor - that god can't even keep his story straight because he's telling mel one thing and the Essosi priests another. More likely I think he's silent (cuz he ain't there) and Mel and the priests are putting their own words in his 'mouth'.

SO I think that free will is ultimately safe... actually I think that Rush's Free Will if you know the tune would be as relevant in Westeros as it was in my dorm.

 

[Targaryeninkingslanding]

20 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

2- Instruction manuals: like the prince who was promised, maybe the 'signs' of the prince who was promised (you know, dead spouse, bleeding star, salt, smoke, etc) are not predictions of the future PWWP, but instructions on how to became the PWWP, as in 'do this and you will be extremely powerful' or something like that.

I'm definitely attracted to this idea and it does seen like there are a few people who could fulfill the requirement for the prince that was promised. just as well I like to entertain the idea that these ancient stories of the last hero and azor ahai were not people who existed in the past, but are from prophecies so old that no one remember that they are prophesies. people mistakenly think they are events that happened.

20 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

3- manipulations: once the person who receives the visions fully trusts in the sender, making them do the sender's will by sending more visions is extremely easy

I think this is a very important aspect to the nature and danger of prophetic beings.

2 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

It isn't clear to me that there are "gods" in ASoIaF. Obviously, how one defines "gods" will have a large impact on one's opinion here.

 I agree entirely. to that end this post was more to highlight the potential danger and treachery inherent in the world of asoiaf if their are gods behind these powers rather than if the powers existing independently. Just as well I am not suggesting an omni god along the lines of the abrahamic religions but something that ascetically resemble Zoroastrianism while simultaneously being close in actual power to more animist religions or pagan religions like ancient greek and norse religions were gods are known to fight and die.

essentially very powerful beings may act selfishly and have no obligation to use there powers for good could exploit prophecy to create conditions that would never have happened without their influence, and thus explain their own control and influence over the world. This may limits distinctly human agency over their own decisions. two gods of similar mind and power could contend and interfere with each other thus providing some degree of chaos, but if any one has complete control, they may become omni-god in function with control over the events of the world, thus defeating free will.

13 minutes ago, Aejohn the Conqueroo said:

 I don't think there's a great Other pushing the Others to the wall and beyond, but there might be a machavellian bastard who got his hands on the tools of the supposed gods and used them to manipulate them to his own purposes. 

So like Bloodraven you mean?

[Aejohn the Conqueroo]

46 minutes ago, Targaryeninkingslanding said:

So like Bloodraven you mean?

Yeah, I think so... or rather the theories that I've read that put Bloodraven at the center of events seem to be the ones that manage to account for the most seemingly disparate and independent events.  I don't know though, sometimes that seems too easy... 

the important thing about BR right now though is that we know he's not a god - certainly not an old one, but he has his hands on the levers in the roots of his tree and is quite happy to let people attribute his work to 'the Old Gods' and manipulate them on that basis.

[Targaryeninkingslanding]

13 minutes ago, Aejohn the Conqueroo said:

the important thing about BR right now though is that we know he's not a god - certainly not an old one, but he has his hands on the levers in the roots of his tree and is quite happy to let people attribute his work to 'the Old Gods' and manipulate them on that basis.

I definitely think this is one of the more interesting point of contention regarding who is controlling... well let's just call it old tree power. But i also think we're at a point were Bloodraven may just be a tool or catalyst, which given his genealogy is plausible. We are also told the old greenseers go into the trees when they die just as orell lived in his eagle. I assume some sort of great amalgam of these ''Souls" exist as the control or the controller. it may be the "god" were are dealing with, a collective of green seer souls, or maybe you are correct that they are more just power being exploited at this point.

[Aejohn the Conqueroo]

1 minute ago, Targaryeninkingslanding said:

I definitely think this is one of the more interesting point of contention regarding who is controlling... well let's just call it old tree power. But i also think we're at a point were Bloodraven may just be a tool or catalyst, which given his genealogy is plausible. We are also told the old greenseers go into the trees when they die just as orell lived in his eagle. I assume some sort of great amalgam of these ''Souls" exist as the control or the controller. it may be the "god" were are dealing with, a collective of green seer souls, or maybe you are correct that they are more just power being exploited at this point.

This is a big question and I don't think we're yet equipped to answer it. When he tells Bran about having a brother he loved and a brother he hated and all of that he does seem somewhat detached from it as though he's no longer the man he remembers himself being. Is that just time (and there's been enough that it could be just time) or is that his personality being coopted as he merges with the other souls? Bran finding other souls in the birds may suggest that there are other souls in the trees, but at the same time we don't know that the other soul Bran felt in the bird wasn't actually BR himself and that was part of his manipulation of Bran.

Or could it be a little of both?  Maybe Bloodraven went North with a certain plan but as the years have passed under that tree that plan has eroded as the other personalities in the tree have asserted their own wills and set their own plans in motion through him.  

I dunno...  

[Springwatch]

On 6/15/2021 at 11:57 PM, Targaryeninkingslanding said:

Well, have you ever seen The Matrix? in the matrix movie there is a character called oracle, who is an oracle. in the seen where she meets the protagonist Neo, she tells him that it is fine that he broke a vase. confused, neo turns to look  around and accidentally breaks a vase. The oracle then addresses the question Neo is left wondering; "would he have broken the vase still if she had said nothing." IN that moment the oracle has defeated free will and exploited prophecy to create conditions to her liking.

The red priests think there's room for free will, or limited free will. Shown in this Jon/Mel exchange:

Quote

"When?"

She spread her hands. "On the morrow. In a moon's turn. In a year. And it may be that if you act, you may avert what I have seen entirely." Else what would be the point of visions?

 

[The Lord of the Crossing]

Forces and elements oppose each other and hopefully create the balance needed for a healthy universe.  A Song of Ice and Fire is more than the fight between ice and fire.  Fire is the light and the life.  Ice is darkness and death.  The change in seasons is a reflection of the elements taking turns.  Fire is good and gives life.  Ice is the killer which keeps life in check and keeps people from increasing beyond what is healthy for the environment.