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Canon Claude

Renly Missed an Easy Opportunity

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Posted (edited)

In hindsight, he should have known that something was up at Storm’s End. Stannis is many things but he isn’t stupid, especially not where war is concerned. Why wouldn’t Renly assume that Stannis had some kind of ace in the hole when he besieged Storm’s End and warned Renly that he had one last chance to come over to his side? It was 5000 foot against a giant fortress and 20,000 cavalry. Stannis wouldn’t do something that stupid unless he had a plan, and Renly should have known that.
And really, all he had to do was say yes and he would have become Stannis’ heir. It’s not like Stannis was going to have any more kids anyway. And even if Renly doesn’t want to wait for Stannis to die, he could easily have him killed at some point after the war is over.

Edited by Canon Claude

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Storm's End was besieged after Renly's death.

53 minutes ago, Canon Claude said:

And really, all he had to do was say yes and he would have become Stannis’ heir. It’s not like Stannis was going to have any more kids anyway. And even if Renly doesn’t want to wait for Stannis to die, he could easily have him killed at some point after the war is over.

Kinslaying is a heavy taboo in Westeros, I doubt Renly would go that far. If I remember correctly, Renly commands his knights to spare his brother's life.

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47 minutes ago, The Hoare said:

 

Kinslaying is a heavy taboo in Westeros, I doubt Renly would go that far. If I remember correctly, Renly commands his knights to spare his brother's life.

I didn’t say he’d publicly kill him. And Renly didn’t exactly say that. He said that he wouldn’t allow his brother’s body to be despoiled. It’s Barristan Selmy that he wanted spared.

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I don't know, it seems like a stannis thing to do. dude's iron, he'll break before he bends. also are we sure Stannis is fully aware of the shadow assassins because when question on his brothers death he is in pretty solid denial of his direct involvement.

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2 hours ago, The Hoare said:

Storm's End was besieged after Renly's death.

Kinslaying is a heavy taboo in Westeros, I doubt Renly would go that far. If I remember correctly, Renly commands his knights to spare his brother's life.

Stannis laid siege to the castle before Renly died. He had already cut down a nearby grove of trees and was building siege engines. It's why Renly went there in the first place.

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3 hours ago, Canon Claude said:

In hindsight, he should have known that something was up at Storm’s End. Stannis is many things but he isn’t stupid, especially not where war is concerned. Why wouldn’t Renly assume that Stannis had some kind of ace in the hole when he besieged Storm’s End and warned Renly that he had one last chance to come over to his side? It was 5000 foot against a giant fortress and 20,000 cavalry. Stannis wouldn’t do something that stupid unless he had a plan, and Renly should have known that.
And really, all he had to do was say yes and he would have become Stannis’ heir. It’s not like Stannis was going to have any more kids anyway. And even if Renly doesn’t want to wait for Stannis to die, he could easily have him killed at some point after the war is over.

Hindsight is 20/20. Nobody could predict the arrival of a murderous magical shadow assassin. Renly was holding all the cards at that point. He held the castle, he had the larger army. And who knows if Stannis will father an heir someday? Defeating Stannis and then taking King's Landing was about as sure a bet as there is, while hoping to maybe someday be king many years from now is not.

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1 minute ago, John Suburbs said:

And who knows if Stannis will father an heir someday?

Anyone who knows Stannis knows that he can barely tolerate women, let alone sleep with one. Renly would have known that too, it’s why everyone makes japes about Shireen’s illegitimacy.

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Yup. Renly was so keen on beating his big brother he forgot to actually secure his victory first. I know a big heroic of knights in shining armor riding forth to do battle appeals to image-conscious Renly, but he should have listened to Catelyn and brought his infantry. It would have taken longer, but he could have beseiged the beseigers. Even Renly's horse outnumbering Stanning isn't as sure as Renly bringing his whole army. A good defensive line could throw a cavalry charge into dissary, and Renly was getting ready to charge into the sun, an added complication. And of course, Stannis was a seasoned battle commander, while Renly was not. Renly should have been less cocky and more cautious in his dealing with Stannis.

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2 hours ago, The Hoare said:

Kinslaying is a heavy taboo in Westeros, I doubt Renly would go that far. 

Why not? He was happy to betray Stannis, steal his rightful bannermen, mock him for not being Shireen's father (and thus insulting his own niece who never did him any wrong), and then prepare to battle him and kill him. 

Plus before all that, Renly was also scheming with the Tyrells to replace Cersei with Margaery. He's also too duplicitous for Ned Stark to partner with, and that guy partnered up with friggin Littlefinger.

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Posted (edited)

Renly was too focused on his own glory to worry about anything Stannis might do. 

Edited by Lord Lannister

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Why is it that thread are always "Renly should have given Stannis everything and we everyone would be happy"??

 

 

5 hours ago, Canon Claude said:

he should have known that something was up at Storm’s End. Stannis is many things but he isn’t stupid, especially not where war is concerned. Why wouldn’t Renly assume that Stannis had some kind of ace in the hole when he besieged Storm’s End and warned Renly that he had one last chance to come over to his side?

Do you assume that every person that faces adverse advantage are counting with actual magic??

 

 

5 hours ago, Canon Claude said:

It’s not like Stannis was going to have any more kids anyway. And even if Renly doesn’t want to wait for Stannis to die, he could easily have him killed at some point after the war is over.

  1. Stannis not having more children at any point in the future is a certainty the fandom has but that it's not particularly shared by Westeros.
  2. Renly was poised to win, he won little by either backstabbing him later or defeating him in the field anyway.

 

2 hours ago, Canon Claude said:

Anyone who knows Stannis knows that he can barely tolerate women, let alone sleep with one.

He tolerates Melisandre just fine, as Davos notes and he's constantly on her bed.

 

1 hour ago, James Steller said:

Why not? He was happy to betray Stannis, steal his rightful bannermen, mock him for not being Shireen's father (and thus insulting his own niece who never did him any wrong), and then prepare to battle him and kill him. 

 

  • He didn't betray Stannis tho, Renly made clear he didn't believe him, if anything he betrayed Robert.
  • Renly never got around Dragonstone's bannermen.
  • Yeah, people don't like being shamed for their sexuality.
  • Stannis wants to kill his own brother and besieges his brother's castle and then threatens him repeatedly.

That said, Renly makes clear that he wants him dead after the parlay.

 

 

1 hour ago, James Steller said:

Plus before all that, Renly was also scheming with the Tyrells to replace Cersei with Margaery. He's also too duplicitous for Ned Stark to partner with, and that guy partnered up with friggin Littlefinger.

You know that's not true at all right??

Ned rejecting Renly's proposal=/ Ned not wanting to partner with him, This is especially clear when we realize that Ned counted with Renly's support as a given.

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Stannis is currently marching through a blizzard to besiege a humongous castle with no supplies and a handful of men, if the series has taught us anything it's that Stannis putting himself in shit positions is entirely in character. Of course this monstrosity of a castle will probably miraculously fall as castles in the series tend to do but that's not really the point. 

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1 hour ago, Lord Lannister said:

Renly was too focused on his own glory to worry about anything Stannis might do. 

Exactly. He already thought he won the war. 

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19 hours ago, Canon Claude said:

Anyone who knows Stannis knows that he can barely tolerate women, let alone sleep with one. Renly would have known that too, it’s why everyone makes japes about Shireen’s illegitimacy.

But Stannis is also a man who does his duty. When his duty is to produce an heir, there is no reason to think he would not try -- however distasteful it is.

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41 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

But Stannis is also a man who does his duty. When his duty is to produce an heir, there is no reason to think he would not try -- however distasteful it is.

I don't really hold any strong opinions either way on this topic but why wouldn't he also consider it a duty to secure his legacy on Dragonstone, he's the lord of that castle in his own right and the head of a cadet branch of House Baratheon yet seems content to let Shireen be his heir. 

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23 hours ago, Nathan Stark said:

Yup. Renly was so keen on beating his big brother he forgot to actually secure his victory first. I know a big heroic of knights in shining armor riding forth to do battle appeals to image-conscious Renly, but he should have listened to Catelyn and brought his infantry. It would have taken longer, but he could have beseiged the beseigers. Even Renly's horse outnumbering Stanning isn't as sure as Renly bringing his whole army. A good defensive line could throw a cavalry charge into dissary, and Renly was getting ready to charge into the sun, an added complication. And of course, Stannis was a seasoned battle commander, while Renly was not. Renly should have been less cocky and more cautious in his dealing with Stannis.

If Renly were more cautious or smart, he'd have sent a smaller army under someone like Tarly or Rowan to relieve the siege with a mixed force army -- Rowan if he wanted diplomacy and Tarly if he just wanted Stannis dead or scattered. There was no need for him to go there himself and pretty much every reason not to. He can always lead another relief force if need be. Frankly ignoring Stannis would have worked just fine.

Renly rushing off with cavalry alone isn't the best idea, but we see no mention of field fortifications. The terrain is a bit rocky and wet but nothing is stopping Renly from dismounting some of his knights a la the English and surrounding Stannis. With four times the men and three battles, that's almost certainly what would have happened anyway

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On 6/18/2021 at 10:05 AM, Trigger Warning said:

I don't really hold any strong opinions either way on this topic but why wouldn't he also consider it a duty to secure his legacy on Dragonstone, he's the lord of that castle in his own right and the head of a cadet branch of House Baratheon yet seems content to let Shireen be his heir. 

Well, he's kinda busy right now, fighting the Lannisters, securing the north, getting ready to go against the Others . . . If/when he becomes king, he will dispense with Dragonstone at that point.

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1 minute ago, John Suburbs said:

Well, he's kinda busy right now, fighting the Lannisters, securing the north, getting ready to go against the Others . . . If/when he becomes king, he will dispense with Dragonstone at that point.

My point was Shireen is eleven years old and an only child. 

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3 minutes ago, Trigger Warning said:

My point was Shireen is eleven years old and an only child. 

Well sure, plenty of time to arrange a marriage for her and establish her position in the realm. And plenty of time for Stannis to father a son by Selyse, or maybe someone else, after he becomes king. My point is, Renly could not count of Stannis remaining chaste for the rest of his life so that he, someday, would become king. The far, far safer bet is to confront him now, at Storm's End, which is an all-but-certain victory, then claim the crown by both inheritance and right of conquest.

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1 minute ago, John Suburbs said:

Well sure, plenty of time to arrange a marriage for her and establish her position in the realm. And plenty of time for Stannis to father a son by Selyse, or maybe someone else, after he becomes king. My point is, Renly could not count of Stannis remaining chaste for the rest of his life so that he, someday, would become king. The far, far safer bet is to confront him now, at Storm's End, which is an all-but-certain victory, then claim the crown by both inheritance and right of conquest.

Like I said I really don't have much of an opinion on this either way. It just seems inconsistent with how Stannis is that he would consider fathering a son as King to be a duty yet didn't as a lord. 

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