Fragile Bird Posted June 25, 2021 Share Posted June 25, 2021 1 minute ago, Zorral said: All of these possible: the condo was erected in the mid-1980's. But the specific cause seems to be eroding beach-coastal fronts on which was built, eroded from below, despite, doubtless the beach itself being re-filled in over the years with sands purloined from beaches in the South Pacific and Asia and elsewheres. A sinkhole, if you will. Probably inevitable on a beach front, and in Florida also, where of course any mention of rising waters or climate change is illegal. Geez. I have been assuming for years that stuff like this would start happening . Investigators will be able to look at the rubble, though, and determine if the correct materials, as shown in the building plans, were used. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DMC Posted June 25, 2021 Share Posted June 25, 2021 48 minutes ago, L'oiseau français said: What do people think about the condo collapse in Florida? I'm thinking don't build apartment buildings on fucking sand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mlle. Zabzie Posted June 25, 2021 Share Posted June 25, 2021 50 minutes ago, L'oiseau français said: What do people think about the condo collapse in Florida? So far they have found 4 dead, with an estimate of 159 people missing. If this happened elsewhere in the world we’d be talking about shoddy construction, bribed inspectors and poor quality building materials, wouldn’t we? The articles I have been reading have been talking about all these things (Miami Herald, and strangely USA Today). In particular, there are complaints on file about cracks in the facade and walls and issues with plumbing. There are also indications of significant subsidence of the building, and nearby major construction, but unclear whether that had anything to do with it. My understanding from what I read is that this building pre-dated a lot of enhanced building codes (was built in 1980 - so approximately 40 years old), so, yeah, could be all these things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zorral Posted June 25, 2021 Share Posted June 25, 2021 https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2021/06/25/florida-condo-collapse-what-you-should-know/ Quote According to a 2020 research paper, the structure, which was built on reclaimed wetlands, has been sinking since the 1990s. Shimon Wdowinski, one of the paper’s authors, told USA Today that researchers found the building had “some kind of unusual movement.” https://therealdeal.com/miami/2021/06/24/heres-what-we-know-about-the-deadly-surfside-condo-building-collapse-99-still-missing/ "Miami Beach developer Nathan Reiber built complex in early 1980s" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fragile Bird Posted June 25, 2021 Share Posted June 25, 2021 Ah, yes, I just did some more reading and saw those reports. 43 minutes ago, Zorral said: But the specific cause seems to be eroding beach-coastal fronts on which was built, eroded from below, despite, doubtless the beach itself being re-filled in over the years with sands purloined from beaches in the South Pacific and Asia and elsewheres. A sinkhole, if you will. Probably inevitable on a beach front, and in Florida also, where of course any mention of rising waters or climate change is illegal. Someone on Facebook gave a bit of a technical description and said sinkholes occur away from the water, inland, and that there are no sinkholes right by the ocean. But the building was sinking for years. It was erected on landfill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zorral Posted June 25, 2021 Share Posted June 25, 2021 That's what I said. And so is everyone else; not shoddy materials. I'd sure be nervous if I had a condo in a building built on those same "re-claimed" wetlands. Additionally, we should consider the effect that such facts have been declared illegal in Florida. Miami firefighters risk lives in flooded underground garage amid revelations collapsed condo was sinking for years https://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/ny-firefighters-surfside-building-collapse-stability-miami-20210625-y7yxtdnorrcz3iebwpnmwml6ey-story.html Quote . . . . As rescue crews searched for life, others hunted for answers as to how the 12-story building suddenly collapsed. Many turned their attention to a 2020 study conducted by FIU Institute of Environment Professor Shimon Wdowinski. The study found that the building had been sinking at a rate of about 2 millimeters per year back in the 1990′s. . . . . . . . As rescue crews searched for life, others hunted for answers as to how the 12-story building suddenly collapsed. Many turned their attention to a 2020 study conducted by FIU Institute of Environment Professor Shimon Wdowinski. The study found that the building had been sinking at a rate of about 2 millimeters per year back in the 1990′s. Indeed, the doomed property was “the one place on the east side of the barrier island” where the movement was specifically confirmed between 1993 to 1999, according to a posting on FIU’s website. . . . https://news.fiu.edu/2021/fiu-professor-collapsed-surfside-building-showed-signs-of-subsidence-in-90s-era-space-radar-data Wdowinski spoke out about his research in the aftermath of the building disaster Thursday, saying the sinking, formally called subsidence, likely would not have caused such a catastrophic collapse all by itself. “We’re very shocked about it,” Wdowinski said in a video addressing the tragedy on FIU’s website. But he said the cumulative effect of decades of subsidence could be sizable and present engineering challenges. . . . R-i-i-i-i-ght. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DireWolfSpirit Posted June 25, 2021 Share Posted June 25, 2021 The whole Fla. tower collapse reminded me of when I use to work in Vegas. There was several large highrises being erected on the strip back then including the City Center, the Encore, and others. One of the towers at the City Center was many, many floors up when the build inspectors halted construction. It made a big impression on me because I was working on another tower adjacent and could see the halted project just across, in fact our company also had contracts for mechanical work (HVAC etc) at the condemned Tower. Unbelievable as it seemed and after hundreds of millions already spent, Las Vegas building inspectors made them completely demolition that highrise. The culprit being that the cement contractors were using a smaller diameter rerod in the floor slabs. In turn this compromised the strength and integrity of the reinforced concrete. Inspectors said nah, nah, get that crap outta here and down came that tower by order of officials despite hundreds of millions already being spent on the buildings erection. A Vegas skyscraper can run a cool billion. As one can imagine the lawsuits started flying next. Anyways this is the checks and balances and oversight doing its job. Something tells me a Republican administration wouldve cut a deal and let the unsafe tower continue being erected in the name of avoiding "meddling regulations" and so forth, and public safety be damned that's too expensive. True story people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martell Spy Posted June 25, 2021 Share Posted June 25, 2021 Forecast is saying 112 on Monday in the Seattle area. This never happens. Can't possibly be climate-change though. Trump Organization could face criminal charges in New York as soon as next week https://www.cnn.com/2021/06/25/politics/trump-organization-weisselberg-charges/index.html Quote New York (CNN)The Manhattan district attorney's office has informed lawyers for the Trump Organization that it could face criminal charges in connection with benefits it has provided to company employees, a person familiar with the matter said. The charges, which could come as soon as next week, would likely involve allegations of a company effort to avoid paying payroll taxes on compensation it provided to employees, including rent-free apartments, cars and other benefits, the person said. The New York Times first reported the contact between the DA's office and Trump Organization lawyers. Prosecutors are also likely to announce charges against Allen Weisselberg, the Trump Organization chief financial officer, as soon as next week, people familiar with the matter said. Weisselberg's lawyers recently informed prosecutors that he would not cooperate in the investigation, the people said. Weisselberg is under scrutiny for benefits he received, including a company-funded apartment and car. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Chatywin et al. Posted June 25, 2021 Share Posted June 25, 2021 34 minutes ago, Martell Spy said: Forecast is saying 112 on Monday in the Seattle area. This never happens. Can't possibly be climate-change though. Have you seen any of the maps projecting draughts this summer in the West compared to previous years? Some of them are down right frightening. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martell Spy Posted June 25, 2021 Share Posted June 25, 2021 11 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said: Have you seen any of the maps projecting draughts this summer in the West compared to previous years? Some of them are down right frightening. Yeah, California in particular is likely to get hit very hard with fires losing access to hydro power. I'm quite concerned what happens even here in 20 years, much less down more south. This has all been presented as this sort of academic debate, but it's clear we're entering a new stage where the results of our handiwork is shoved in our faces. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fragile Bird Posted June 25, 2021 Share Posted June 25, 2021 1 hour ago, Tywin et al. said: Have you seen any of the maps projecting draughts this summer in the West compared to previous years? Some of them are down right frightening. Drought, right? As in no rain? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zorral Posted June 25, 2021 Share Posted June 25, 2021 2 hours ago, Tywin et al. said: Have you seen any of the maps projecting draughts this summer in the West compared to previous years? Some of them are down right frightening. Ya. Also the climate models all winter this was to be the case, that this was going to be a continuation of the historic heat and drought that's been hitting those regions for several summers, and this one would be even worse. And now there are grasshopper swarms. Food prices and shortages are going to be like nothing North America has been familiar with. This same sort of thing is going on all over the world, and if not heat and drought, flooding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varysblackfyre321 Posted June 25, 2021 Share Posted June 25, 2021 On 6/24/2021 at 10:30 AM, TrackerNeil said: Yeah, I was just reading about this on the Post. Although I imagine the secret goal is to get the deplorables all fired up, I don't even know what the open goal is. Sure, DeSantis is making noise about funding, but what does that mean? If insufficient numbers of college students profess conservative opinions, Florida will...what? Withhold money until the surveys reflect more conservatism? I can hear FIRE writing letters, even now. The outrage in it of itself is a worthy enough. If the courts rightly say what’s being done is unconstitutional, DeSants will cry the evil woke mob intimidated the courts to side against him. But it can and should be treated as a genuine attempt for the state to try and censure academia for having a large influence from people or ideas the state has designated as their opposition. So any talk of any inequality that’s not attributing it to innate group differences are a no go. and fill it with people who although may not be the most qualified for a job would “right” ideas. I am against this attempt for affirmative actions for conservatives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varysblackfyre321 Posted June 25, 2021 Share Posted June 25, 2021 On 6/24/2021 at 3:56 AM, Ser Scot A Ellison said: I fear Mike Judge is a prophet. You know thinking about idiocracy it’s a bit eugenicy right? The downfall of the world comes from the poor and disadvantaged of society being allowed to breed whilst the more elite don’t make enough babies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fragile Bird Posted June 25, 2021 Share Posted June 25, 2021 15 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said: You know thinking about idiocracy it’s a bit eugenicy right? The downfall of the world comes from the poor and disadvantaged of society being allowed to breed whilst the more elite don’t make enough babies. Now now, it’s Darwinism in action. ”It’s not the strongest of the species that survives, nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change”. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DMC Posted June 25, 2021 Share Posted June 25, 2021 27 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said: The outrage in it of itself is a worthy enough. If the courts rightly say what’s being done is unconstitutional, DeSants will cry the evil woke mob intimidated the courts to side against him. Yeah it doesn't really matter what the courts do. This, preventing the teaching of CRT when no school district in FL actually teaches it, demanding districts teach the "evils" of communism. They have no real force and effect, it's just because DeSantis wants to run for president. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Chatywin et al. Posted June 25, 2021 Share Posted June 25, 2021 This is what it's always been about. I've been saying this since I was a kid: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ormond Posted June 26, 2021 Share Posted June 26, 2021 8 hours ago, L'oiseau français said: Ah, yes, I just did some more reading and saw those reports. Someone on Facebook gave a bit of a technical description and said sinkholes occur away from the water, inland, and that there are no sinkholes right by the ocean. But the building was sinking for years. It was erected on landfill. I don't think that is correct at all as a general proposition. I'm pretty sure there are sinkholes in limestone formations underneath the ocean, so I don't see why they couldn't be by the ocean. Now that does NOT mean that the geology underneath this one particular building would be susceptible to sinkholes. I rather doubt it, as if there had been a real sinkhole some of the rubble would have disappeared into it below former ground level, and from the visuals I have seen that does not seem to be the case. The author of report that mentions the building sinking a bit himself says this would not have been enough to cause the collapse by itself. I think it's highly unlikely there will be just one "cause" of this, but rather several small issues that combined to create a rare event. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DireWolfSpirit Posted June 26, 2021 Share Posted June 26, 2021 I heard talk about possible compromised rebar within the concrete, someone on NPR was pointing to possible salt erosion and expansion/contraction pockets around the rods within the reinforced concrete slabs. This could cause a floor to give in I'm betting. We are not going to get the official collapse cause till the structural engineers give us their report. It seems like that will take a while and an investigation obviously. On the outside were all just guessing currently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DireWolfSpirit Posted June 26, 2021 Share Posted June 26, 2021 So Chauvin gets 22 1/2 yrs. Too little, about right, too much, what say you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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