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Angel Eyes

North going it alone vs. AotD (Army of the Dead)

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So at the beginning of Season 7, Jon is the one who wants to make the alliance with Daenerys to fight the Army of the Dead, an initiative that is opposed by Sansa and the Northern Lords. Now the wights and White Walkers (plus the Night King) are only killed by fire, Valyrian Steel and dragonglass.  Barely anyone uses fire, dragonglass is something that Jon is willing to trade for, while there are only two Valyrian Steel weapons in the entire North: Longclaw (in Jon's possession) and Oathkeeper (in Brienne's possession).

Seriously, how did Sansa or any of the Northern Lords believe they could fight the Army of the Dead with barely anything to use to fight them?

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Posted (edited)

It's such bad writing. So they have the Vale. And that's it. Shouldn't Sansa be bringing up the other kingdoms? If siding with a Targaryen is such an issue and a Lannister is equally bad then what chance do they have? And where are the others. Dorne, Reach, etc?

It makes you wonder if most of the North even believe what Jon, Davos and the wildlings know is out there. 

Edited by Ghostlydragon

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Ghostlydragon said:

It's such bad writing. So they have the Vale. And that's it. Shouldn't Sansa be bringing up the other kingdoms? If siding with a Targaryen is such an issue and a Lannister is equally bad then what chance do they have? And where are the others. Dorne, Reach, etc?

It makes you wonder if most of the North even believe what Jon, Davos and the wildlings know is out there. 

The show doesn't touch up on whether or not the North or Vale believe in the White Walkers/wights. I think Sansa does... but she seems to think Cersei is a more important threat. In fact I'm surprised that Cersei never sent assassins northward to assassinate Sansa for supposedly killing Joffrey; note that she doesn't learn Olenna killed Joffrey until after Jaime returns to King's Landing after getting beaten by Daenerys. As for Dorne and the Reach, there's not much that can be offered in an alliance since both houses have been essentially decapitated unless those kingdoms' alliance with Daenerys is officially known.

Edited by Angel Eyes

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Posted (edited)

Well... That's why Jon was king, ain't it? There was never any hope for the North alone.

Still can't get over the smug Sansa half smile after getting 'everything she ever wanted' and Jon gets shafted to the fuckin Night's Watch, AGAIN. In what way would this ever be plausible to the Stark children? He gives up everything and they give him up over a beaten to shit dothraki army that shouldn't even exist and the Unsullied who number a few thousand at the most after all of this? The guy who just saved everyone's asses, seriously, and who has the only real feudal right to the throne, who by fucking far has had one of the most interesting stories, SERIOUSLY?

And yes my butt is still hurt from the finale.

Edited by Leonardo

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4 hours ago, Leonardo said:

Well... That's why Jon was king, ain't it? There was never any hope for the North alone.

Still can't get over the smug Sansa half smile after getting 'everything she ever wanted' and Jon gets shafted to the fuckin Night's Watch, AGAIN. In what way would this ever be plausible to the Stark children? He gives up everything and they give him up over a beaten to shit dothraki army that shouldn't even exist and the Unsullied who number a few thousand at the most after all of this? The guy who just saved everyone's asses, seriously, and who has the only real feudal right to the throne, who by fucking far has had one of the most interesting stories, SERIOUSLY?

And yes my butt is still hurt from the finale.

Technically we're talking about earlier than that, this thread's about Season 7.

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Posted (edited)

Funny thing about cause and effect, you have to see it all the way through. North going alone wouldn't be a problem at all. In that case no one goes south to treat with Daenerys, no one comes up with the dumbest idea ever (wight hunt), no dragon dies which means the Wall stays intact and best of all...because the Wall stays up the NK and his AotD stay on the other side incapable of doing any damage. Just like it's been for thousands of years...

Edited by Mystical

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59 minutes ago, Mystical said:

Funny thing about cause and effect, you have to see it all the way through. North going alone wouldn't be a problem at all. In that case no one goes south to treat with Daenerys, no one comes up with the dumbest idea ever (wight hunt), no dragon dies which means the Wall stays intact and best of all...because the Wall stays up the NK and his AotD stay on the other side incapable of doing any damage. Just like it's been for thousands of years...

They were coming anyways, the Night King planned to freeze the sea near Eastwatch (where the Wall conspicuously does not reach the shoreline) and go around the Wall.

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4 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

They were coming anyways, the Night King planned to freeze the sea near Eastwatch (where the Wall conspicuously does not reach the shoreline) and go around the Wall.

No he didn't. That was never mentioned in the show, ever.

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On 7/7/2021 at 7:24 PM, Mystical said:

No he didn't. That was never mentioned in the show, ever.

The Hound sees them marching on Eastwatch, the Night King is shown to break protective enchantments if there's someone he touched on the other side (read: Bran and the cave of the Three-Eyed Raven), and the Wall does not reach the shoreline. He could go around it.

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7 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

The Hound sees them marching on Eastwatch, the Night King is shown to break protective enchantments if there's someone he touched on the other side (read: Bran and the cave of the Three-Eyed Raven), and the Wall does not reach the shoreline. He could go around it.

We've had this discussion before.

1) The army was also marching way back when a Walker decided to spare Sam for no reason. That was right at the Wall. The dead have been there several times over the Seasons and nothing happened.

2) Hound saw them marching. Bran saw them marching. We saw them marching. And nothing came of it.

3) If they wanted Bran (because of being marked) to be the reason for the AotD to cross the wall, he would have been. Problem is, that's clearly not cinematic enough or D&D forgot, so Bran crossing through the Wall did nothing.

4) If there was a way over, through or around the Wall then it would have happened thousands of years ago already. But the NK and his army didn't cross into Westeros during all that time so clearly there was no way for them to do so.

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11 minutes ago, Mystical said:

We've had this discussion before.

1) The army was also marching way back when a Walker decided to spare Sam for no reason. That was right at the Wall. The dead have been there several times over the Seasons and nothing happened.

2) Hound saw them marching. Bran saw them marching. We saw them marching. And nothing came of it.

3) If they wanted Bran (because of being marked) to be the reason for the AotD to cross the wall, he would have been. Problem is, that's clearly not cinematic enough or D&D forgot, so Bran crossing through the Wall did nothing.

4) If there was a way over, through or around the Wall then it would have happened thousands of years ago already. But the NK and his army didn't cross into Westeros during all that time so clearly there was no way for them to do so.

They weren't right at the Wall. The Walkers attacked at the Fist of the First Men, which is still farther out than Craster's Keep, which is still Beyond the Wall. Also, the Walkers take years to do anything.

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12 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

They weren't right at the Wall. The Walkers attacked at the Fist of the First Men, which is still farther out than Craster's Keep, which is still Beyond the Wall. Also, the Walkers take years to do anything.

When the White Walker roars and points his spear after sparing Sam, the camera zooms out and the Wall looks like it's right there or at least very close. Also the ranging party in the first episode couldn't have been far from the Wall since the deserter makes it past the Wall for Ned to execute (without a horse or anything to eat). So they have been marching and have been near the Wall before.

And it still doesn't negate all my other points. The winter we saw in S7 was a joke, with barely any snow. In the thousands of years prior there would have been some harsh winters that would have aided the NK and his army to freeze the shores in order to cross. But it has clearly never happened, was never mentioned as an option and was also not how the AotD crossed into the South in S7. Ergo, it can't be done. The same with Bran being marked by the NK which negates the magic of the Children, the same magic that supposedly is in the Wall. Nothing apparently happened when Bran crossed the Wall, therefor this was also not an option.

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Posted (edited)
On 7/7/2021 at 9:26 AM, Leonardo said:

Well... That's why Jon was king, ain't it? There was never any hope for the North alone.

Still can't get over the smug Sansa half smile after getting 'everything she ever wanted' and Jon gets shafted to the fuckin Night's Watch, AGAIN. In what way would this ever be plausible to the Stark children? He gives up everything and they give him up over a beaten to shit dothraki army that shouldn't even exist and the Unsullied who number a few thousand at the most after all of this? The guy who just saved everyone's asses, seriously, and who has the only real feudal right to the throne, who by fucking far has had one of the most interesting stories, SERIOUSLY?

And yes my butt is still hurt from the finale.

It's plausible if you're very cynical about it.  Jon has the best claim to the throne.  He would be most unlikely to appoint Tyrion as Hand, after all his cock ups; nor a venial illiterate sellsword as Master of Coin;  nor an unqualified novice who broke his vows as Grand Maester.  So, you have five people, Bran, Sansa, Tyrion, Bronn, and Sam with good reason to send Jon into the wilderness. Of the people who actually did the heavy lifting, in the fights against the Others or Cersei, Daenerys was dead, Jon was exiled, and Arya was sailing West, unlikely ever to return.  The jackals shared the spoils.

Bad writing is the alternative (and more likely) explanation.

Edited by SeanF

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1 hour ago, Mystical said:

When the White Walker roars and points his spear after sparing Sam, the camera zooms out and the Wall looks like it's right there or at least very close. Also the ranging party in the first episode couldn't have been far from the Wall since the deserter makes it past the Wall for Ned to execute (without a horse or anything to eat). So they have been marching and have been near the Wall before.

And it still doesn't negate all my other points. The winter we saw in S7 was a joke, with barely any snow. In the thousands of years prior there would have been some harsh winters that would have aided the NK and his army to freeze the shores in order to cross. But it has clearly never happened, was never mentioned as an option and was also not how the AotD crossed into the South in S7. Ergo, it can't be done. The same with Bran being marked by the NK which negates the magic of the Children, the same magic that supposedly is in the Wall. Nothing apparently happened when Bran crossed the Wall, therefor this was also not an option.

Maybe the show runners should have consulted George Martin, and found out how he intends the Wall to fall.

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2 hours ago, Mystical said:

When the White Walker roars and points his spear after sparing Sam, the camera zooms out and the Wall looks like it's right there or at least very close. Also the ranging party in the first episode couldn't have been far from the Wall since the deserter makes it past the Wall for Ned to execute (without a horse or anything to eat). So they have been marching and have been near the Wall before.

If the Wall is in sight after that point, why did the Night's Watch have to go to Craster's Keep? I think the Fist of the First Men (where the Night's Watch lost to the wights) is further away from the Wall than Craster's Keep.

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14 hours ago, SeanF said:

It's plausible if you're very cynical about it.  Jon has the best claim to the throne.  He would be most unlikely to appoint Tyrion as Hand, after all his cock ups; nor a venial illiterate sellsword as Master of Coin;  nor an unqualified novice who broke his vows as Grand Maester.  So, you have five people, Bran, Sansa, Tyrion, Bronn, and Sam with good reason to send Jon into the wilderness. Of the people who actually did the heavy lifting, in the fights against the Others or Cersei, Daenerys was dead, Jon was exiled, and Arya was sailing West, unlikely ever to return.  The jackals shared the spoils.

Bad writing is the alternative (and more likely) explanation.

Bad writing. Arya would never, EVER let someone fuck wit Jon like that. It's so out of character, and it's out of Sansa's character by then as well. Instead they just make Sansa selfish Sansa again and head in the clouds Arya and head up his own prophetic ass Bran.

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20 hours ago, SeanF said:

Maybe the show runners should have consulted George Martin, and found out how he intends the Wall to fall.

By then GRRM had nothing to do with the show anymore. It's possible they never asked him when he was still involved. It's also possible that they asked/he told them and they decided it's not cinematic enough. I mean these are the guys who think polar bear >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>plot, characters, world building etc..

20 hours ago, SeanF said:

So, you have five people, Bran, Sansa, Tyrion, Bronn, and Sam with good reason to send Jon into the wilderness.

Except Arya and Sansa came to KL to see Jon freed and returned home (Sansa even wanted Jon to remain King). They brought a freaking army to ensure that.

19 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

If the Wall is in sight after that point, why did the Night's Watch have to go to Craster's Keep? I think the Fist of the First Men (where the Night's Watch lost to the wights) is further away from the Wall than Craster's Keep.

I don't know. And I'm not going back to check. All I remember is Sam running off with others and being the sole survivor (at least I think there were others with him originally), cowering behind that stone, the WW looking at him and sparing him for no reason. Then the WW looks ahead, raises his spear and points it forward making a screeching noise at which point the camera zooms out and we see the dead with him starting to march in the direction the WW pointed. That direction is clearly the Wall because it's right there in front of them a little distance away.

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5 hours ago, Mystical said:

I don't know. And I'm not going back to check. All I remember is Sam running off with others and being the sole survivor (at least I think there were others with him originally), cowering behind that stone, the WW looking at him and sparing him for no reason. Then the WW looks ahead, raises his spear and points it forward making a screeching noise at which point the camera zooms out and we see the dead with him starting to march in the direction the WW pointed. That direction is clearly the Wall because it's right there in front of them a little distance away.

If the Wall was that close, how didn't they reach it?

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5 hours ago, Mystical said:

 

I don't know. And I'm not going back to check. All I remember is Sam running off with others and being the sole survivor (at least I think there were others with him originally), cowering behind that stone, the WW looking at him and sparing him for no reason. Then the WW looks ahead, raises his spear and points it forward making a screeching noise at which point the camera zooms out and we see the dead with him starting to march in the direction the WW pointed. That direction is clearly the Wall because it's right there in front of them a little distance away.

Were we ever given a reason for that?

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6 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

If the Wall was that close, how didn't they reach it?

Maybe they did, maybe they didn't. It clearly didn't matter back then. You have to think like D&D think. Everyone watching would be all 'OMG they are this close to the Wall' and freaking out. From the look of it, seems like the AotD has been walking in circles behind the Wall for 7 Seasons waiting for the story to catch up.

6 hours ago, SeanF said:

Were we ever given a reason for that?

In story? Nope. Sam's still alive in the books at that point so he can't die. Maybe?

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