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Angel Eyes

North going it alone vs. AotD (Army of the Dead)

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1 hour ago, Mystical said:

Maybe they did, maybe they didn't. It clearly didn't matter back then. You have to think like D&D think. Everyone watching would be all 'OMG they are this close to the Wall' and freaking out. From the look of it, seems like the AotD has been walking in circles behind the Wall for 7 Seasons waiting for the story to catch up.

Look at a map of Beyond the Wall (take the one on the wiki for example) and they are ostensibly using the same maps in the show. The White Walkers ambush Waymar, Will, and Gared somewhere in the Haunted Forest. They've advanced as far as the Fist of the First Men where the Night's Watch gets massacred in late Season 2/Early Season 3. Craster's Keep is to the southeast, though lone White Walkers journey there to collect incest babies. They take a detour to take out the hapless wildlings at Hardhome, which is slightly northeast, but can only be accessed from the southwest. The only trouble is where the cave of the Three-Eyed Raven is, though it hardly matters because they can't get in anyways due to the enchantments... until the Night King touches Bran.

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5 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

Look at a map of Beyond the Wall (take the one on the wiki for example) and they are ostensibly using the same maps in the show. The White Walkers ambush Waymar, Will, and Gared somewhere in the Haunted Forest. They've advanced as far as the Fist of the First Men where the Night's Watch gets massacred in late Season 2/Early Season 3. Craster's Keep is to the southeast, though lone White Walkers journey there to collect incest babies. They take a detour to take out the hapless wildlings at Hardhome, which is slightly northeast, but can only be accessed from the southwest. The only trouble is where the cave of the Three-Eyed Raven is, though it hardly matters because they can't get in anyways due to the enchantments... until the Night King touches Bran.

Again, I have no idea. I'm not D&D. You'd have to ask them. And if you do, ask them what that whole NK touching Craster's sons and turning them into...something...is all about. And where it was NK did that. What do their symbols made with body parts mean?

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On 7/14/2021 at 10:18 PM, Mystical said:

In story? Nope. Sam's still alive in the books at that point so he can't die. Maybe?

At the time it came off as a mystery, like them having unclear motivations, some sort of ethics maybe, or they wanted to leave witnesses behind etc. - they spared Will too, unlike the book opening, and then the W that came for the baby didn't wanna unnecessarily hurt Sam either; arguably even had that look of betrayal on his face when getting stabbed in the back, like "dude I just spared you" lol.

 

At that time it wasn't even clear the Ws wanted an invasion - looked more like they were just reclaiming their territory beyond the Wall while collecting the babies and expanding their numbers; wasn't quite clear what they werd up to.

 

However in retrospect those mysteries and characterizations seem to have been pointless - so I guess leaving those survivors was just their nonchalant arrogance; like he could've killed that one fat guy, but instead he just rolls his eyes and moves on.

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On 7/15/2021 at 12:05 AM, Mystical said:

Again, I have no idea. I'm not D&D. You'd have to ask them. And if you do, ask them what that whole NK touching Craster's sons and turning them into...something...is all about. And where it was NK did that. What do their symbols made with body parts mean?

I think they needed incest babies to transform them into walkers, and since there were oniy like a dozen of them maybe it was Craster's fault that they came back lol - like NK spent 1000 years with just 1 lonely walker at his side, and finally the crazed incest bastid they were hoping for came along and they finally could start expanding their numbers again lol

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On 7/27/2021 at 5:01 AM, Pink Fat Rast said:

I think they needed incest babies to transform them into walkers, and since there were oniy like a dozen of them maybe it was Craster's fault that they came back lol - like NK spent 1000 years with just 1 lonely walker at his side, and finally the crazed incest bastid they were hoping for came along and they finally could start expanding their numbers again lol

Except if he turned babies into WW they would stay babies. Undead don't grow or age. That's how the NK, WW and weights have been around for 1000s of years. And technically if that's the process, there should be hundreds of WW, plenty of babies beyond the Wall thanks to Wildlings. Incest or not doesn't matter in this case, especially since incest brings with it physical deformities (unless GRRM writes because he doesn't do science at all) and you'd think the NK would want good specimen.

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6 hours ago, Mystical said:

Except if he turned babies into WW they would stay babies. Undead don't grow or age. That's how the NK, WW and weights have been around for 1000s of years. And technically if that's the process, there should be hundreds of WW, plenty of babies beyond the Wall thanks to Wildlings. Incest or not doesn't matter in this case, especially since incest brings with it physical deformities (unless GRRM writes because he doesn't do science at all) and you'd think the NK would want good specimen.

Well let's say Others do grow up but then stay immortal, and incest babies have some evil magic to them that enables them to be possess by demons

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On 6/20/2021 at 10:20 AM, Angel Eyes said:

So at the beginning of Season 7, Jon is the one who wants to make the alliance with Daenerys to fight the Army of the Dead, an initiative that is opposed by Sansa and the Northern Lords. Now the wights and White Walkers (plus the Night King) are only killed by fire, Valyrian Steel and dragonglass.  Barely anyone uses fire, dragonglass is something that Jon is willing to trade for, while there are only two Valyrian Steel weapons in the entire North: Longclaw (in Jon's possession) and Oathkeeper (in Brienne's possession).

Pretty sure her reasons for opposing Dany made sense, they had just won their independence and she knew Dany wanted to take that away. It would be different if the alliance was actually, you know, an alliance - where countries help each other without expectations of fealty afterward. Sansa  seems to be dragging Westeros into something more like NATO/the EU where states can have mutual alliances but not necessarily give up sovereignty. And yes, I do think GRRM cares about sovereignty still, as a concept.

Anyway the whole thing was just a demonstrate of, can people who dislike each other work together to prevent the apocalypse? The answer was yes. Sansa played along but wasn't going to be a pushover, either.

Edited by Rose of Red Lake

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8 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Pretty sure her reasons for opposing Dany made sense, they had just won their independence and she knew Dany wanted to take that away. It would be different if the alliance was actually, you know, an alliance - where countries help each other without expectations of fealty afterward. Sansa  seems to be dragging Westeros into something more like NATO/the EU where states can have mutual alliances but not necessarily give up sovereignty. And yes, I do think GRRM cares about sovereignty still, as a concept.

Anyway the whole thing was just a demonstrate of, can people who dislike each other work together to prevent the apocalypse? The answer was yes. Sansa played along but wasn't going to be a pushover, either.

Even so, they (Sansa and the Northern Lords) were willing to fight the undead with very little that could actually kill the undead.

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45 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

Even so, they (Sansa and the Northern Lords) were willing to fight the undead with very little that could actually kill the undead.

They fought them and won without dragons before, although the show doesn't get into that. They probably think fire arrows will do the trick.The show also complicated things by having dragon glass be used on wights when all they need is a lantern to the face.

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On 9/6/2021 at 6:37 AM, Rose of Red Lake said:

Pretty sure her reasons for opposing Dany made sense, they had just won their independence and she knew Dany wanted to take that away. It would be different if the alliance was actually, you know, an alliance - where countries help each other without expectations of fealty afterward. Sansa  seems to be dragging Westeros into something more like NATO/the EU where states can have mutual alliances but not necessarily give up sovereignty. And yes, I do think GRRM cares about sovereignty still, as a concept.

Anyway the whole thing was just a demonstrate of, can people who dislike each other work together to prevent the apocalypse? The answer was yes. Sansa played along but wasn't going to be a pushover, either.

But they hadn't won their independence. They were still in rebellion against the iron throne at that point.

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i think the big difficulties with Northern independence would be they they have no navy, but they do have an extensive coastline, vulnerable to raiding;  they have a shortage of young men, after huge losses in the wars;  famine is a periodic problem, but the breadbasket of the Seven Kingdoms, the Reach, is now ruled by a venial sellsword;  and the Northern Lords are mostly stupid, treacherous, braggarts.

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4 hours ago, SeanF said:

i think the big difficulties with Northern independence would be they they have no navy, but they do have an extensive coastline, vulnerable to raiding;  they have a shortage of young men, after huge losses in the wars;  famine is a periodic problem, but the breadbasket of the Seven Kingdoms, the Reach, is now ruled by a venial sellsword;  and the Northern Lords are mostly stupid, treacherous, braggarts.

I was talking about a different point in time, at the beginning of Season 7.

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On 9/6/2021 at 11:59 PM, Ghostlydragon said:

But they hadn't won their independence. They were still in rebellion against the iron throne at that point.

Why does this matter? Rebels from the Iron Throne's POV...independence declared from the North's POV. It lasted two seconds, then muh kween.

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48 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Why does this matter? Rebels from the Iron Throne's POV...independence declared from the North's POV. It lasted two seconds, then muh kween.

Because like you said. Dany will take that away from them. Just like Cersei would. She refused to allow it in s2. As soon as they can send an army north, there will be another war that the North would lose. Sansa even planned to be lady of winterfell in s6. Not queen.

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6 hours ago, Ghostlydragon said:

Just like Cersei would. She refused to allow it in s2.

The same Cersei who said that the North can't be held by an outsider?

6 hours ago, Ghostlydragon said:

Sansa even planned to be lady of winterfell in s6. Not queen.

Why would Sansa need to plan to be LoW? In the absence of Bran, it's her birthright.

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On 9/6/2021 at 2:59 PM, Angel Eyes said:

Even so, they (Sansa and the Northern Lords) were willing to fight the undead with very little that could actually kill the undead.

Maybe she and they just didn’t believe the Dead were the threat that Jon said they were.  If so, Sansa’s reluctance to see Jon go South would make sense.  Giving fealty in return for military protection was the basis of feudalism, and perhaps she anticipated Dany would stipulate this.  The North could not be independent if it could not defend itself.

Or perhaps this a typical attempt to bridge the gaps in the plot.

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On 9/8/2021 at 1:41 AM, Ghostlydragon said:

Because like you said. Dany will take that away from them. Just like Cersei would. She refused to allow it in s2. As soon as they can send an army north, there will be another war that the North would lose. Sansa even planned to be lady of winterfell in s6. Not queen.

Sansa wanted Jon to be king, because she trusts people she knows, not strangers. She opposed Dany because they had just gotten Winterfell back, and Jon had just been declared king. She warned him before he left that Dany wanted the North to kneel to her. It isnt about Sansa's position. It's who she supports to represent the North. Obviously independence mattered to her.

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6 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Sansa wanted Jon to be king, because she trusts people she knows, not strangers. She opposed Dany because they had just gotten Winterfell back, and Jon had just been declared king. She warned him before he left that Dany wanted the North to kneel to her. It isnt about Sansa's position. It's who she supports to represent the North. Obviously independence mattered to her.

Imo 3 kinda "plot holes" in that area:

1) Them still caring about that indepence after like half their territory got genocided - is it even viable at that point?

2) The fact that Daenerys doesn't say sth along the lines of "Jon already agreed to it and there hasn't been a revolt yet - if there's still strong dossidents, maybe he should duke it out with them internally", instead of getting mad at Sansa for somehow standing in the way of her annexation plans.

3) The only reason Daenerys was obsessed with the throne was because she absorbed that ambition from Viserys, and then Drogo - some kind of reminder of thd s1 events might have helped her deconstruct that obsession and ease up; or go evil and decide it was still a cool goal to pursue lol

Was kinda expecting sth like that to happen, but the script just ended up going with the "Daenerys is obsessed with getting all the 7 kingdoms, that's the character trait ok?" and didn't deal with that in any way.

 

Seen points 1) and 2) addressed by various posters before, in various forms, but the 3rd one somehow not; idk, probably has lol

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3 hours ago, Pink Fat Rast said:

Imo 3 kinda "plot holes" in that area:

1) Them still caring about that indepence after like half their territory got genocided - is it even viable at that point?

I'm not following - genocide? What do you mean.

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2) The fact that Daenerys doesn't say sth along the lines of "Jon already agreed to it and there hasn't been a revolt yet - if there's still strong dossidents, maybe he should duke it out with them internally", instead of getting mad at Sansa for somehow standing in the way of her annexation plans.

Yeah, she should be doing a lot of things. Just because Jon knelt doesn't mean she's secured anything. I mean, the Northerners pretended to humor Theon when he said he was the Prince of Winterfell. But, Jon told her that his people wouldn't bend to another southern ruler. He was pretty firm on that. Then says, "they'll see you for what you are?" Okay...that's a stretch. Then he kind of smirks at the cold reception and basically says "I told you so" when they arrive. And in a deleted scene he also smirks when a Northerner spits in front of her?? It's just weird.

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3) The only reason Daenerys was obsessed with the throne was because she absorbed that ambition from Viserys, and then Drogo - some kind of reminder of thd s1 events might have helped her deconstruct that obsession and ease up; or go evil and decide it was still a cool goal to pursue lol

Personally going evil is more fun. I wish more people would loosen up and learn how to be villain stans. 

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Was kinda expecting sth like that to happen, but the script just ended up going with the "Daenerys is obsessed with getting all the 7 kingdoms, that's the character trait ok?" and didn't deal with that in any way.

Well since she promised Iron Islands their independence, I guess its more like 6? Although, she's pretty driven in the book toward living up to a Targaryen image, that she imposes on herself. That includes ruling like the Targaryens did in the past.

Edited by Rose of Red Lake

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On 9/15/2021 at 1:59 AM, Pink Fat Rast said:

Imo 3 kinda "plot holes" in that area:

1) Them still caring about that indepence after like half their territory got genocided - is it even viable at that point?

2) The fact that Daenerys doesn't say sth along the lines of "Jon already agreed to it and there hasn't been a revolt yet - if there's still strong dossidents, maybe he should duke it out with them internally", instead of getting mad at Sansa for somehow standing in the way of her annexation plans.

3) The only reason Daenerys was obsessed with the throne was because she absorbed that ambition from Viserys, and then Drogo - some kind of reminder of thd s1 events might have helped her deconstruct that obsession and ease up; or go evil and decide it was still a cool goal to pursue lol

Was kinda expecting sth like that to happen, but the script just ended up going with the "Daenerys is obsessed with getting all the 7 kingdoms, that's the character trait ok?" and didn't deal with that in any way.

 

Seen points 1) and 2) addressed by various posters before, in various forms, but the 3rd one somehow not; idk, probably has lol

A big plot hole/retcon was that Daenerys agreed to march North prior to Jon bending the knee.  And then she actually asked Jon if his people would accept her when he proposed to do so, in Season 7, episode 6.  Then in Season 8, Episode 1, he told his vassals he had to choose between his crown and saving the North.  That was either a lie or bad writing.

Frankly, the whole business whether the ruler of the North gets called a King or a Warden or Lord of Winterfell is or should be quite trivial when you’ve got an army of zombies marching on you.  

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