Heresy 236 and the Musgrave Ritual

[LynnS]

29 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

Maybe beyond the locked lower level of the crypts will be found the decrepit bony skelton of the ancient Stark greenseer wearing the crown and holding the sword entwined in the roots of the Winterfell heart tree?

Something horrific.  The thing that filled Bran with terrible knowledge when he looked into the crow's third eye.   Hodor senses it because of his connection to future Bran.

[alienarea]

33 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

Maybe beyond the locked lower level of the crypts will be found the decrepit bony skelton of the ancient Stark greenseer wearing the crown and holding the sword entwined in the roots of the Winterfell heart tree?

And that will be the ancient Bran Stark whose sacrifice the current Bran Stark witnessed,

[Melifeather]

11 minutes ago, alienarea said:

And that will be the ancient Bran Stark whose sacrifice the current Bran Stark witnessed,

While I do believe the man sacrificed was a Brandon Stark, the manner of death isn't consistent with how Bloodraven and Bran became greenseers. Greenseers become wedded to the trees, which I take to be a different sort of life. They probably can never return to a normal human life, but they also haven't been given everlasting life. Eventually they are consumed by the trees. That is why I think they'll find a skeleton.

[Black Crow]

13 hours ago, Tucu said:

"For him. The Bran boy. I was born in the time of the dragon, and for two hundred years I walked the world of men, to watch and listen and learn. I might be walking still, but my legs were sore and my heart was weary, so I turned my feet for home."

I was thinking of course of that other son of Winterfell, Jon Snow, However, thinking further, you are of course quite right, but with the caveat that people may be too hung up on "the One". Ever since Our Mel tooled up there's been an obsession with Azor Ahai, the champion of light [and Fire] and unhealthy assumptions that he and "The Prince that was Promised", Jon Snow and Uncle Tom Cobbley and any other legendary hero you care to mention are one and the same. Hip Hip Hooray!

But what if there isn't a One?

On performance thus far Danaerys the Dragonlord has been hailed by the Red Lot as Azor Ahai, and so she might be. The Three-Fingered Tree Huggers have been waiting for Bran for a long time, and of course Jon Snow is being drawn to something cold in the woodshed. 

Remember that in the original synopsis GRRM wrote:

Five central characters will make it through all three volumes, however, growing from children to adults and changing the world and themselves in the process. In a sense, my trilogy is almost a generational saga, telling the life stories of these five characters, three men and two women. The five key players are Tyrion Lannister, Daenerys Targaryen, and three of the children of Winterfell, Arya, Bran, and the bastard Jon Snow.

There is no "One"

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, Black Crow said:

But what if there isn't a One?

Oddly enough. Melisandre refers to Lightbringer, in the plural, as the red sword of heroes.

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Davos IV

Davos knelt, and Stannis drew his longsword. Lightbringer, Melisandre had named it; the red sword of heroes, drawn from the fires where the seven gods were consumed. The room seemed to grow brighter as the blade slid from its scabbard. The steel had a glow to it; now orange, now yellow, now red. The air shimmered around it, and no jewel had ever sparkled so brilliantly. But when Stannis touched it to Davos's shoulder, it felt no different than any other longsword. "Ser Davos of House Seaworth," the king said, "are you my true and honest liege man, now and forever?"

Whatever the red sword turns out to be; it seems to be linked to the Faith of the Seven in some way. the stars that fell to earth.  The red sword may turn out to be one of seven heroes.

Marwyn's acolyte Alleras has this to say:

Quote

A Feast for Crows - Prologue

"They do," mused Alleras, the Sphinx, "and if there are dragons in the world again . . ."

"Dragons and darker things," said Leo. "The grey sheep have closed their eyes, but the mastiff sees the truth. Old powers waken. Shadows stir. An age of wonder and terror will soon be upon us, an age for gods and heroes." He stretched, smiling his lazy smile. "That's worth a round, I'd say."

It's likely she is repeating something Marwyn has said.  He also warns Sam about the treachery of prophesy and the hubris of thinking that you understand it.

The old powers waking is a call back to Mirri Maaz Duur and what Dany sees dancing around the fire.  Specifically the great wolf and the man limned in flames.  But there are other shadows/old powers besides these two, that she doesn't see clearly:

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Daenerys VIII

"The maegi," someone else said. Was that Aggo? "Take her to the maegi."

No, Dany wanted to say, no, not that, you mustn't, but when she opened her mouth, a long wail of pain escaped, and the sweat broke over her skin. What was wrong with them, couldn't they see? Inside the tent the shapes were dancing, circling the brazier and the bloody bath, dark against the sandsilk, and some did not look human. She glimpsed the shadow of a great wolf, and another like a man wreathed in flames.

So the great wolf and the man limned in flame are not the only old powers.  I think we could include the Undying of Qarth as one of the old powers as well as whatever is waking in the crypts of Winterfell.

[Black Crow]

Exactly so. On the one hand, viewing the Song of Ice and Fire as a straightforward binary conflict may be far too simplistic. On the other hand, GRRM has made it clear that there will be no personal appearances by the gods on Westeros' green and pleasant land. So if the fight is to get up close and personal, it isn't going to be a case of identifying Azor Ahai and then passing the popcorn while he or she battles the as yet unheralded hero of Ice and Darkness. Its already far more complicated than that

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, Black Crow said:

Its already far more complicated than that

It is far more complicated than I ever anticipated.  Thinking of MMD again and what she meant:

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Daenerys IX

"This is not life, for one who was as Drogo was. His life was laughter, and meat roasting over a firepit, and a horse between his legs. His life was an arakh in his hand and his bells ringing in his hair as he rode to meet an enemy. His life was his bloodriders, and me, and the son I was to give him."

Mirri Maz Duur made no reply.

"When will he be as he was?" Dany demanded.

"When the sun rises in the west and sets in the east," said Mirri Maz Duur. "When the seas go dry and mountains blow in the wind like leaves. When your womb quickens again, and you bear a living child. Then he will return, and not before."

As an example of how tricky prophesy can be.  Dany's question about when Drogo will be as he was instead of the vegetative state after MMD's blood magic.  On the surface, everything she says sounds impossible and Drogo is killed and burned on his pyre.

At least part of this riddle has come true:

When the sun rises in the west and sets in the east:

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Tyrion VIII

Only the brightest stars were visible, all to the west. A dull red glow lit the sky to the northeast, the color of a blood bruise. Tyrion had never seen a bigger moon. Monstrous, swollen, it looked as if it had swallowed the sun and woken with a fever. Its twin, floating on the sea beyond the ship, shimmered red with every wave. "What hour is this?" he asked Moqorro. "That cannot be sunrise unless the east has moved. Why is the sky red?"

We have a blood moon eclipse. both a wonder and a terror.

When the seas go dry:

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Daenerys III

"The Dothraki sea," Ser Jorah Mormont said as he reined to a halt beside her on the top of the ridge. Beneath them, the plain stretched out immense and empty, a vast flat expanse that reached to the distant horizon and beyond. It was a sea, Dany thought. Past here, there were no hills, no mountains, no trees nor cities nor roads, only the endless grasses, the tall blades rippling like waves when the winds blew. "It's so green," she said.

"Here and now," Ser Jorah agreed. "You ought to see it when it blooms, all dark red flowers from horizon to horizon, like a sea of blood. Come the dry season, and the world turns the color of old bronze. And this is only hranna, child. There are a hundred kinds of grass out there, grasses as yellow as lemon and as dark as indigo, blue grasses and orange grasses and grasses like rainbows. Down in the Shadow Lands beyond Asshai, they say there are oceans of ghost grass, taller than a man on horseback with stalks as pale as milkglass. It murders all other grass and glows in the dark with the spirits of the damned. The Dothraki claim that someday ghost grass will cover the entire world, and then all life will end."

MMD can only be talking about the Dothraki Sea and the dry season, something that hasn't yet occurred.

... and mountains blow in the wind like leaves:

I can only think of this in terms of metaphor.  The winds of change that not even "mountains" can withstand:

Quote

The winds of change is a metaphor that again uses wind in the metaphor, but it’s not directly about the wind. It is using an idea about how wind “blows in” something new. There’s a famous Scorpions song called “the winds of change” which refers to how change is coming and it cannot be stopped. Here, the phrase “the winds of change” refers to something changing that’s beyond our control.

Something beyond control that blows everyone around like leaves in the wind.

14 Metaphors about Wind (2021) - Symbolism & Metaphor (symbolismandmetaphor.com)

We now know that Dany has bled again in DWD, so it does seem possible that she will become pregnant again.  I'm not sure what seeing Drogo again as he was in life will mean.  Unless it has something to do with this vision:

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Daenerys IV

. . . help her . . . the whispers mocked. . . . show her . . .

Then phantoms shivered through the murk, images in indigo. Viserys screamed as the molten gold ran down his cheeks and filled his mouth. A tall lord with copper skin and silver-gold hair stood beneath the banner of a fiery stallion, a burning city behind him

.

 

[Tucu]

4 hours ago, Black Crow said:

I was thinking of course of that other son of Winterfell, Jon Snow, However, thinking further, you are of course quite right, but with the caveat that people may be too hung up on "the One". Ever since Our Mel tooled up there's been an obsession with Azor Ahai, the champion of light [and Fire] and unhealthy assumptions that he and "The Prince that was Promised", Jon Snow and Uncle Tom Cobbley and any other legendary hero you care to mention are one and the same. Hip Hip Hooray!

But what if there isn't a One?

On performance thus far Danaerys the Dragonlord has been hailed by the Red Lot as Azor Ahai, and so she might be. The Three-Fingered Tree Huggers have been waiting for Bran for a long time, and of course Jon Snow is being drawn to something cold in the woodshed. 

Remember that in the original synopsis GRRM wrote:

Five central characters will make it through all three volumes, however, growing from children to adults and changing the world and themselves in the process. In a sense, my trilogy is almost a generational saga, telling the life stories of these five characters, three men and two women. The five key players are Tyrion Lannister, Daenerys Targaryen, and three of the children of Winterfell, Arya, Bran, and the bastard Jon Snow.

There is no "One"

It is curious that the "prince" the land was waiting for might be a crippled boy with no known dragon blood. Makes me wonder how far the syncretism of the prince that was promised prophecy goes. Waiting for a prince with dragons would not have been much of a prophecy in a culture that could field 300 dragons in one battle.

Back to our heroes. I think I expect those 5 (plus Sansa on the more human side) to be special on their own way, not as rehashed ancient heroes. That said, Azor Ahais might be a dime a dozen with a lot of them burning out very fast. This "god view" from Catelyn's POV might be pointing to fallen stars all over the place:

Quote

Lord Caswell's keep was scarcely tall enough to call a tower, but the country was low and flat and Catelyn could see for leagues in all directions. Wherever she looked, she saw fires. They covered the earth like fallen stars, and like the stars there was no end to them. "Count them if you like, my lady," Renly said quietly. "You will still be counting when dawn breaks in the east. How many fires burn around Riverrun tonight, I wonder?"

Catelyn could hear faint music drifting from the Great Hall, seeping out into the night. She dare not count the stars.

Kill a star and get a magical sword (while stocks last).

 

[LynnS]

4 hours ago, Black Crow said:

I was thinking of course of that other son of Winterfell, Jon Snow, However, thinking further, you are of course quite right, but with the caveat that people may be too hung up on "the One". Ever since Our Mel tooled up there's been an obsession with Azor Ahai, the champion of light [and Fire] and unhealthy assumptions that he and "The Prince that was Promised", Jon Snow and Uncle Tom Cobbley and any other legendary hero you care to mention are one and the same. Hip Hip Hooray!

I do think there is a kind of symmetry to ice and fire.  The COTF have been waiting for Bran for at least 200 years.  He is their promised one, their prince and the one who is chosen.  That is quite separate to Dany as the PWIP but it strikes a balance.  Dany also has something of her own Musgrave ritual going on with the meaning of 'waking the dragon' and the 'dragon has three heads'.  She goes to the House of Undying to be shown the path, for wisdom, for truths she doesn't know.  It's also the House of Deception with a heart of corruption.  Dany thinks that everything they say to her is all about her.  But I'm not so sure that's the case.

Drogo goes with her and there is an intelligence and awareness to him about the dangers to Dany.  He rides on her shoulder, lashing her with his tail to get moving when the shadow creeps up on her in the hall of doors.  He shows her which door to go through next when she meets the splendor of wizards and he saves her from being trapped and consumed. 

Quote

 

A Clash of Kings - Daenerys IV

"I have come for the gift of truth," Dany said. "In the long hall, the things I saw . . . were they true visions, or lies? Past things, or things to come? What did they mean?"

. . . the shape of shadows . . . morrows not yet made . . . drink from the cup of ice . . . drink from the cup of fire . . .

. . . mother of dragons . . . child of three . . .

"Three?" She did not understand.

. . . three heads has the dragon . . . the ghost chorus yammered inside her skull with never a lip moving, never a breath stirring the still blue air. . . . mother of dragons . . . child of storm . . . The whispers became a swirling song. . . . three fires must you light . . . one for life and one for death and one to love . . . Her own heart was beating in unison to the one that floated before her, blue and corrupt . . . three mounts must you ride . . . one to bed and one to dread and one to love . . . The voices were growing louder, she realized, and it seemed her heart was slowing, and even her breath. . . . three treasons will you know . . . once for blood and once for gold and once for love . . .

 

So when they say mother of dragons and then child of three; it's also possible they are addressing both Dany and then Drogo.  It also seems unlikely to me tat Dany has a choice between drinking from a cup of ice or a cup of fire.  

The cup of ice might refer to Bloodraven, the white dragon and his three heads/children:  Bran, Jon and Arya.  So if there is a symmetry; then what does that imply for Dany and three heads of her dragon?  I don't think this has anything to do with who will ride a dragon.  Is Dany one of the heads of the dragon, the chosen one like Bran? 

Is there an equivalent to Bloodraven?  Another dragon, an old dragon.  Is it the singing dragon of her dreams/the man limned in flame,  Him of Fire? 

The Undying refer to three aspects:  mother of dragons, bride of fire, slayer of lies.  Does this refer to Dany specifically or are these the three heads of the dragon?  Dany, Melisandre and Tyrion come to mind.

Quote

 

A Dance with Dragons - Tyrion VIII

"Someone told me that the night is dark and full of terrors. What do you see in those flames?"

"Dragons," Moqorro said in the Common Tongue of Westeros. He spoke it very well, with hardly a trace of accent. No doubt that was one reason the high priest Benerro had chosen him to bring the faith of R'hllor to Daenerys Targaryen. "Dragons old and young, true and false, bright and dark. And you. A small man with a big shadow, snarling in the midst of all."

 

 When Bran is wed to the tree and Bloodraven finally expires; the power will pass from the old dragon to the great wolf and instead of a dragon with three heads; it will be a wolf with three heads:  Jon, Arya and Rickon.  A dark trio if ever there was one.

[LynnS]

1 minute ago, Tucu said:

That said, Azor Ahais might be a dime a dozen with a lot of them burning out very fast.

I'm guessing Thoros of Myr will eventually light his sword with his own blood instead of wildfire and his robes are no longer red but pink, the color of Dawn.  

[Melifeather]

5 hours ago, Black Crow said:

The five key players are Tyrion Lannister, Daenerys Targaryen, and three of the children of Winterfell, Arya, Bran, and the bastard Jon Snow.

I think he's since changed this to including Sansa, because she certainly has been the recipient of many, many chapters.

 

[Tucu]

28 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I'm guessing Thoros of Myr will eventually light his sword with his own blood instead of wildfire and his robes are no longer red but pink, the color of Dawn.  

The Gregor-Beric-Thoros trinity is interesting. Gregor is the one thrusting his spear into the chest (heart), Thoros provides the kiss (love) and Beric gives his soul and is the one that gets the magical sword.

[LynnS]

16 minutes ago, Tucu said:

The Gregor-Beric-Thoros trinity is interesting. Gregor is the one thrusting his spear into the chest (heart), Thoros provides the kiss (love) and Beric gives his soul and is the one that gets the magical sword.

Oh.  That didn't cross my mind.  I was thinking of the Brienne, Thoros, Jaime trinity.

 

 

[Black Crow]

32 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

I think he's since changed this to including Sansa, because she certainly has been the recipient of many, many chapters.

 

He also added a little brother of course in the form of Rickon, and why might that be?

Either way, its another son of Winterfell, and while Sansa's arc is already rather different from that in the synopsis and both once again emphasise the centrality of Winterfell and ultimately its Musgrave Ritual

[Melifeather]

55 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

He also added a little brother of course in the form of Rickon, and why might that be?

Either way, its another son of Winterfell, and while Sansa's arc is already rather different from that in the synopsis and both once again emphasise the centrality of Winterfell and ultimately its Musgrave Ritual

Don't forget Robb, but my point is that Robb and Rickon never got POV chapters so they aren't main characters.

[alienarea]

2 hours ago, Tucu said:

Remember that in the original synopsis GRRM wrote:

Five central characters will make it through all three volumes, however, growing from children to adults and changing the world and themselves in the process. In a sense, my trilogy is almost a generational saga, telling the life stories of these five characters, three men and two women. The five key players are Tyrion Lannister, Daenerys Targaryen, and three of the children of Winterfell, Arya, Bran, and the bastard Jon Snow.

Are we sure the synopsis is still valid as GRRM is beyond a trilogy?

Words are wind. 

But the winds of winter aren't words yet :P

[Matthew.]

2 hours ago, Melifeather said:

I think he's since changed this to including Sansa, because she certainly has been the recipient of many, many chapters.

To the extent that it's possible to define anyone in this bloated mess of a series as being among the central characters, I would agree that Sansa has clearly joined their ranks.

There's a lot of subjectivity here, but to my mind the "main" characters (that are still alive) are Tyrion, Dany, Jon, Bran, Sansa, Arya, Jaime, and Cersei--with maybe some wiggle room for characters like Sam, Theon, and Brienne as well. Again, another subjective judgment, but I also read Littlefinger as being the central human antagonist, because of the degree to which he has helped engineer the political conflict.

19 minutes ago, alienarea said:

Are we sure the synopsis is still valid as GRRM is beyond a trilogy?

The synopsis, IMO, is useless as anything other than a moderately interesting relic, a vestige of a story that GRRM ultimately didn't end up telling.

[Black Crow]

18 minutes ago, alienarea said:

Are we sure the synopsis is still valid as GRRM is beyond a trilogy?

Words are wind. 

But the winds of winter aren't words yet

Of course its been overtaken by the story as written in so many ways, but the point is that it was conceived started and is still being written as an ensemble piece, still largely centering around the children of Winterfell. 

[Tucu]

3 hours ago, LynnS said:

Oh.  That didn't cross my mind.  I was thinking of the Brienne, Thoros, Jaime trinity.

 

 

There are so many Azor Ahais that is hard to track them all ;-)

Curious thing about azor and ahai:

-Azor is the Spanish word for the northern goshawk, a type hawk

-Ahai is a variation of the Basque word for ram

Both the hawk and the ram are types of Egyptian sphinxes (hieracosphinx and criosphinx). The ram sphinx apparently represented Amun ("the hidden" god of air and wind) and the hawk represented Horus (a sky god)

 

 

[LynnS]

17 minutes ago, Tucu said:

There are so many Azor Ahais that is hard to track them all ;-)

Curious thing about azor and ahai:

-Azor is the Spanish word for the northern goshawk, a type hawk

-Ahai is a variation of the Basque word for ram

Both the hawk and the ram are types of Egyptian sphinxes (hieracosphinx and criosphinx). The ram sphinx apparently represented Amun ("the hidden" god of air and wind) and the hawk represented Horus (a sky god)

Oh that's interesting. Also:

Quote

Celtic Hawk Mythology

The hawk was a symbol of the Celtic god Bran. There are many myths about Bran throughout Britain and Ireland. He is described as a giant, a warrior-king, and a deity. As “Bran the Blessed”, he was the King of the Isle of the Mighty (Britain) and ruled from his throne in Wales. In Irish myths, Bran was the son of Febal, and traveled to the “Otherworland Islands” where he had many adventures – a tale similar to the Greek story of Jason and the Golden Fleece.

Quote

Quote

The ram-horned serpent

is a well-attested cult image of north-west Europe before and during the Roman period. It appears three times on the Gundestrup cauldron, and in Romano-Celtic Gaul was closely associated with the horned or antlered god Cernunnos, in whose company it is regularly depicted. This pairing is found as early as the fourth century BC in Northern Italy, where a huge antlered figure with torcs and a serpent was carved on the rocks in Val Camonica.[9]