Heresy 236 and the Musgrave Ritual

[LynnS]

1 minute ago, Tucu said:

The elements for parallels or mirrors are there but I guess we are not supposed to be able to assemble them yet.

Craster is the bastard son of a ranger; this ranger is Jon's "brother". In some ways Craster and Jon share the "black blood", so Monster is of Jon's blood.

Bran's sees a vision of a girl and a boy playing swords; probably Lyanna and Benjen. The girl in the vision is both older and dominant. This might  trace back to Cersei and Jamie; Cersei is the older of the twins and used to cross-dress as Jamie to train with swords. Benjen calls Jon "son" in GoT

Sam can be a stand-in for a halfmaester like Haldon but he was also thinking of passing Aemon Steelsong as his bastard son to hide him from the queen of a Baratheon King.

Gilly is not really involved in the war; she was just running away but finds herself in the middle and "loses" her son.

Too many pieces

 

Where the events at the ToJ are concerned;  Howland's intervention may have to do with negotiating for Jon in exchange for keeping silent about Aegon and not telling Robert that he is alive.  Otherwise Arthur would have killed Ned.

I think Craster is Stark blood and a parallel to the Night King; someone who gave his offspring to the wood. 

Benjen call Jon son because he is a son of Winterfell.

Sam passing Aemon Steelsong off as his son is all of a pattern with Connington doing the same.  He's also passing Monster's nursemaid off as the infant's mother.

Gilly is a casualty of war and so was Lyanna.  

 

 

[Tucu]

21 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Where the events at the ToJ are concerned;  Howland's intervention may have to do with negotiating for Jon in exchange for keeping silent about Aegon and not telling Robert that he is alive.  Otherwise Arthur would have killed Ned.

I am convinced that Shadrich is either Howland or a stand-in for Howland

Quote

"We mice are quiet creatures." Ser Shadrich was so short that he might have been taken for a squire, but his face belonged to a much older man. She saw long leagues in the wrinkles at the corner of his mouth, old battles in the scar beneath his ear, and a hardness behind the eyes that no boy would ever have. This was a man grown. Even Randa overtopped him, though.

We have to wait and see how he behaves in the tourney in the Gates of the Moon.

[LynnS]

23 minutes ago, Tucu said:

I am convinced that Shadrich is either Howland or a stand-in for Howland

We have to wait and see how he behaves in the tourney in the Gates of the Moon.

It's an interesting prospect.  I'm very curious about the Mad Mouse.  I'm also curious about the High Sparrow with feet like tree roots.

[Melifeather]

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

I don't know.  More specifically, why does Jon switch Mance's and Gilly's baby?  Is it because he thinks Melisandre will burn both Mance and his son?  Does Jon send Gilly away with Sam before he learns that Mel has substituted Rattleshirt for Mance?  I'm wondering what happens if Mel burns Monster.

The parallel between Sam and Haldon half-maesters is apt and amusing. It seems like a pattern repeating itself generation to generation.  Ned 'swaps' Aegon for Jon (the monster) and Jon swaps the 'prince' for Monster.  The question is what kind of monster is Jon.  Will he be another one of Bran's monsters? 

I'm assuming that if Melisandre makes a move to burn Gilly's child Monster that Jon would step in and tell her that he sent Mance's son away. Jon thinks his move would save both children. It also has the added benefit of protecting an asset. Mance has gone on a mission for him so he would feel an added incentive to guard Mance's interests.

59 minutes ago, Tucu said:

The elements for parallels or mirrors are there but I guess we are not supposed to be able to assemble them yet.

Craster is the bastard son of a ranger; this ranger was one Jon's "brothers". In some ways Craster and Jon share the "black blood", so Monster is of Jon's blood.

Bran's sees a vision of a girl and a boy playing swords; probably Lyanna and Benjen. The girl in the vision is both older and dominant. This might  trace back to Cersei and Jamie; Cersei is the older of the twins and used to cross-dress as Jamie to train with swords. Benjen calls Jon "son" in GoT

Sam can be a stand-in for a halfmaester like Haldon but he was also thinking of passing Aemon Steelsong as his bastard son to hide him from the queen of a Baratheon King.

Gilly is not really involved in the war; she was just running away but finds herself in the middle and "loses" her son.

Too many pieces

 

Benjen was only 15 years old at the beginning of Robert's Rebellion. I guess it's not impossible that he could father a child, but the ick factor would definitely be worse.

24 minutes ago, Tucu said:

I am convinced that Shadrich is either Howland or a stand-in for Howland

We have to wait and see how he behaves in the tourney in the Gates of the Moon.

I firmly believe Shadrich is an parallel echo of both Arya and Howland as outlined in this comparison: LINK

[LynnS]

2 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

I'm assuming that if Melisandre makes a move to burn Gilly's child Monster that Jon would step in and tell her that he sent Mance's son away. Jon thinks his move would save both children. It also has the added benefit of protecting an asset. Mance has gone on a mission for him so he would feel an added incentive to guard Mance's interests.

That makes sense to me.

[Tucu]

23 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

Benjen was only 15 years old at the beginning of Robert's Rebellion. I guess it's not impossible that he could father a child, but the ick factor would definitely be worse.

15 makes the parallel to Jamie and Cersei stronger. They were 15 when she convinced him to join the KG to be with her:

Quote

“But,” Jaime said, “there’s Casterly Rock . . . ”

“Is it a rock you want? Or me?”

He remembered that night as if it were yesterday. They spent it in an old inn on Eel Alley, well away from watchful eyes. Cersei had come to him dressed as a simple serving wench, which somehow excited him all the more. Jaime had never seen her more passionate. Every time he went to sleep, she woke him again. By morning Casterly Rock seemed a small price to pay to be near her always. He gave his consent, and Cersei promised to do the rest.

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"Whent's great tourney. He wanted to show us all his big castle and his fine sons. I wanted to show them too. I was only fifteen, but no one could have beaten me that day. Aerys never let me joust."

 

[LynnS]

5 minutes ago, Tucu said:

15 makes the parallel to Jamie and Cersei stronger. They were 15 when she convinced him to join the KG to be with her:

My ick bells are ringing.  LOL  The question is when did Benjen go to the Wall and when did he have the opportunity to father Jon?  Do we assume she went back to Winterfell after the Tourney.  Or did she stay in the South with Ned at the Eyrie?  Some think she stayed at Harrenhall.  

[Tucu]

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

My ick bells are ringing.  LOL  The question is when did Benjen go to the Wall and when did he have the opportunity to father Jon?  Do we assume she went back to Winterfell after the Tourney.  Or did she stay in the South with Ned at the Eyrie?  Some think she stayed at Harrenhall.  

We have an SSM about Benjen and The Wall:

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This one is probably trivial, but when did Benjen join the Watch? Right after the war against the Targaryens, more or less?

Pretty much, yes. Probably around about the time Ned returned from the south and Catelyn and Robb and Jon took up residence.

So he was very young when he joined.

Per another SSM, he was the Stark in Winterfell during the rebellion. We don't know his location between the tourney and the the abduction.

[Black Crow]

As you know, I'm always wary of over-complicating things [whether icky or not], and I'm not ready yet for the Stark incest theory. However, i do think that Benjen is going to turn out to be important so far as the Musgrave Ritual is concerned.

In the early days [of the story, not the forum] it was said that Bran could look to be granted a holdfast somewhere, and by implication he and his would sink into obscurity as a minor cadet branch of the family. He fell, of course long before this possibility could firm up, but the point is that the Wall wasn't viewed as the automatic destination/fate of any spares.

That then raises questions anent the sequence of events, or rather the motives for that sequence.

For reasons entirely beyond their control, Lord Eddard's father and elder brother die suddenly and unexpected-like. Ordinarily young Eddard would step into their shoes, but the young lord goes off to the wars, so his younger brother Benjen steps up instead as "The Stark in Winterfell"

Curious that its expressed as a title, albeit within the family. There must always be a Stark in Winterfell, we are told, but this isn't a simple tradition or bit of advice. It's an office.

Lord Eddard comes back from the wars and takes over that office, which is fair enough, but then Benjen immediately goes off to the Wall. Why? As the one-time Stark in Winterfell does he know too much? And what of Jon? Whatever his relationship, Benjen knows that Jon is a Son of Winterfell. Even Maester Aemon knows something about that. "You are a son of Winterfell... It must be you or no-one" Why?

That rather suggests to me that as The Stark in Winterfell, Benjen learned of the Musgrave Ritual, and recognised the significance of a son of Winterfell sprung from a daughter of Winterfell. Did he take him to the Wall not as a convenient place to hide a family embarrassment, but to prepare him for the next step in the Ritual ?

[alienarea]

52 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

The Stark in Winterfell, Benjen learned of the Musgrave Ritual, and recognised the significance of a son of Winterfell sprung from a daughter of Winterfell. Did he take him to the Wall not as a convenient place to hide a family embarrassment, but to prepare him for the next step in the Ritual ?

In addition to this, and I don't have an answer or theory, Benjen seems to go ranging beyond the wall "a lot". Maybe he learned something as "The Stark in Winterfell" that he goes searching for once Ned takes over again?

This may or may not be similar to Mance's quest, and I would really like to know whether GRRM planned Benjen to be Mance at some point.

[Tucu]

47 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

As you know, I'm always wary of over-complicating things [whether icky or not], and I'm not ready yet for the Stark incest theory. However, i do think that Benjen is going to turn out to be important so far as the Musgrave Ritual is concerned.

In the early days [of the story, not the forum] it was said that Bran could look to be granted a holdfast somewhere, and by implication he and his would sink into obscurity as a minor cadet branch of the family. He fell, of course long before this possibility could firm up, but the point is that the Wall wasn't viewed as the automatic destination/fate of any spares.

That then raises questions anent the sequence of events, or rather the motives for that sequence.

For reasons entirely beyond their control, Lord Eddard's father and elder brother die suddenly and unexpected-like. Ordinarily young Eddard would step into their shoes, but the young lord goes off to the wars, so his younger brother Benjen steps up instead as "The Stark in Winterfell"

Curious that its expressed as a title, albeit within the family. There must always be a Stark in Winterfell, we are told, but this isn't a simple tradition or bit of advice. It's an office.

Lord Eddard comes back from the wars and takes over that office, which is fair enough, but then Benjen immediately goes off to the Wall. Why? As the one-time Stark in Winterfell does he know too much? And what of Jon? Whatever his relationship, Benjen knows that Jon is a Son of Winterfell. Even Maester Aemon knows something about that. "You are a son of Winterfell... It must be you or no-one" Why?

That rather suggests to me that as The Stark in Winterfell, Benjen learned of the Musgrave Ritual, and recognised the significance of a son of Winterfell sprung from a daughter of Winterfell. Did he take him to the Wall not as a convenient place to hide a family embarrassment, but to prepare him for the next step in the Ritual ?

The app places Benjen's "choice" to join the NW at Harrenhal (see screenshot: https://i.imgur.com/e4pj3g1.png). In this version Benjen is moved by the wandering crow begging for support, but the app (like the world book) is known for its misdirections.

[alienarea]

1 minute ago, Tucu said:

The app places Benjen's "choice" to join the NW at Harrenhal (see screenshot: https://i.imgur.com/e4pj3g1.png). In this version Benjen is moved by the wandering crow begging for support, but the app (like the world book) is known for its misdirections.

That could indicate Benjen did something at Harrenhal he wants to serve for at the wall?

[Tucu]

6 minutes ago, alienarea said:

That could indicate Benjen did something at Harrenhal he wants to serve for at the wall?

Either that or Yoren used to be a much better motivational speaker

Quote

"Know me now, do you? There's a bright boy." He spat. "They're done here. You'll be coming with me, and you'll be keeping your mouth shut." When she started to reply, he shook her again, even harder. "Shut, I said."

 

[alienarea]

1 hour ago, Tucu said:

Either that or Yoren used to be a much better motivational speaker

 

Do we know Yoren was the recruiter back then? Or maybe Mance?

[Tucu]

11 minutes ago, alienarea said:

Do we know Yoren was the recruiter back then? Or maybe Mance?

We know that we was active as a recruiter for the last 30 years:

Quote

but me . . . thirty years I been taking this kingsroad

but probably not the only recruiter.

Mance and Benjen never met apparently:

Quote

Your uncle did not know me by sight, so I had no fear from that quarter, and I did not think your father was like to remember a young crow he'd met briefly years before. I wanted to see this Robert with my own eyes, king to king, and get the measure of your uncle Benjen as well

 

[LynnS]

3 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Lord Eddard comes back from the wars and takes over that office, which is fair enough, but then Benjen immediately goes off to the Wall. Why? As the one-time Stark in Winterfell does he know too much? And what of Jon? Whatever his relationship, Benjen knows that Jon is a Son of Winterfell. Even Maester Aemon knows something about that. "You are a son of Winterfell... It must be you or no-one" Why?

I'd say because the Wall belongs to a son of Winterfell as much as any holdfast.  Benjen should have been next in line for Lord Commander and because he is gone; that office falls to Jon..  Going to the Wall and becoming LC, is as much an office as being the Stark in Winterfell. 

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Jon VIII

"Yes, Jon. It need not be for long. Only until such time as the garrison returns. Donal chose you, and Qhorin Halfhand before him. Lord Commander Mormont made you his steward. You are a son of Winterfell, a nephew of Benjen Stark. It must be you or no one. The Wall is yours, Jon Snow."

If the LC on the Wall fails, the Stark in Winterfell steps in:

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Jon VII

The first time he had seen Castle Black with his own eyes, Jon had wondered why anyone would be so foolish as to build a castle without walls. How could it be defended?

"It can't," his uncle told him. "That is the point. The Night's Watch is pledged to take no part in the quarrels of the realm. Yet over the centuries certain Lords Commander, more proud than wise, forgot their vows and near destroyed us all with their ambitions. Lord Commander Runcel Hightower tried to bequeathe the Watch to his bastard son. Lord Commander Rodrik Flint thought to make himself King-beyond-the-Wall. Tristan Mudd, Mad Marq Rankenfell, Robin Hill . . . did you know that six hundred years ago, the commanders at Snowgate and the Nightfort went to war against each other? And when the Lord Commander tried to stop them, they joined forces to murder him? The Stark in Winterfell had to take a hand . . . and both their heads. Which he did easily, because their strongholds were not defensible. The Night's Watch had nine hundred and ninety-six Lords Commander before Jeor Mormont, most of them men of courage and honor . . . but we have had cowards and fools as well, our tyrants and our madmen. We survive because the lords and kings of the Seven Kingdoms know that we pose no threat to them, no matter who should lead us. Our only foes are to the north, and to the north we have the Wall."

Benjen knows a lot about the history of the Watch.  I've also wondered if he knew too much about Jon's birth and this is why he went to the Wall.  It may be that the Musgrave Ritual is only remembered and passed down by one Stark in Winterfell.  I'm not sure how much Eddard actually knew.  Maybe very little. 

I'm curious about gaps in memory including Bran's supressed memory. Ned seems to have his own gaps:

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Eddard I

"She should be on a hill somewhere, under a fruit tree, with the sun and clouds above her and the rain to wash her clean."

"I was with her when she died," Ned reminded the king. "She wanted to come home, to rest beside Brandon and Father." He could hear her still at times. Promise me, she had cried, in a room that smelled of blood and roses. Promise me, Ned. The fever had taken her strength and her voice had been faint as a whisper, but when he gave her his word, the fear had gone out of his sister's eyes. Ned remembered the way she had smiled then, how tightly her fingers had clutched his as she gave up her hold on life, the rose petals spilling from her palm, dead and black. After that he remembered nothing. They had found him still holding her body, silent with grief. The little crannogman, Howland Reed, had taken her hand from his. Ned could recall none of it. "I bring her flowers when I can," he said. "Lyanna was … fond of flowers."

It seems to me that Benjen is educated and I've also wondered if it is Starks with skinchanging or warging abilities who end up at the Wall.

I've also wondered about some latent 3rd eye abilities in Lyanna, with horses, and Ned with green dreams.  As first ranger. I wonder if Benjen could be that queer bird, Mormont's Raven. 

[LynnS]

47 minutes ago, LynnS said:

did you know that six hundred years ago, the commanders at Snowgate and the Nightfort went to war against each other? And when the Lord Commander tried to stop them, they joined forces to murder him? The Stark in Winterfell had to take a hand . . . and both their heads.

Does anyone get the sense that these are the two hell hounds that Symeon Star-Eyes saw fighting on the Wall?

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Bran IV

Bran wasn't so certain. The Nightfort had figured in some of Old Nan's scariest stories. It was here that Night's King had reigned, before his name was wiped from the memory of man. This was where the Rat Cook had served the Andal king his prince-and-bacon pie, where the seventy-nine sentinels stood their watch, where brave young Danny Flint had been raped and murdered. This was the castle where King Sherrit had called down his curse on the Andals of old, where the 'prentice boys had faced the thing that came in the night, where blind Symeon Star-Eyes had seen the hellhounds fighting. Mad Axe had once walked these yards and climbed these towers, butchering his brothers in the dark.

Or that blind Symeon Star-Eyes is the Black Gate. Or that the two hellhounds were Starks?

[Melifeather]

50 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Does anyone get the sense that these are the two hell hounds that Symeon Star-Eyes saw fighting on the Wall?

Or that blind Symeon Star-Eyes is the Black Gate. Or that the two hellhounds were Starks?

I can see the analogy, but who would know what Symeon had “seen” if he were the Black Gate?

It does sound like a premonition though. “Seen” can be defined as foretelling a future event, either by looking into the flames, in a wolf dream, greendream, greensight, or weirwood.

[LynnS]

19 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

I can see the analogy, but who would know what Symeon had “seen” if he were the Black Gate?

It does sound like a premonition though. “Seen” can be defined as foretelling a future event, either by looking into the flames, in a wolf dream, greendream, greensight, or weirwood.

LOL! Good point.  We do know the Black Gate can talk to brothers of the Watch.  

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Bran IV

"How did you get through the Wall?" Jojen demanded as Sam struggled to his feet. "Does the well lead to an underground river, is that where you came from? You're not even wet . . ."

"There's a gate," said fat Sam. "A hidden gate, as old as the Wall itself. The Black Gate, he called it."

The Reeds exchanged a look. "We'll find this gate at the bottom of the well?" asked Jojen.

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Bran IV

The well grew darker and colder with every turn. When Bran finally lifted his head around to look back up the shaft, the top of the well was no bigger than a half-moon. "Hodor," Hodor whispered, "Hodorhodorhodorhodorhodorhodor," the well whispered back. The water sounds were close, but when Bran peered down he saw only blackness.

A turn or two later Sam stopped suddenly. He was a quarter of the way around the well from Bran and Hodor and six feet farther down, yet Bran could barely see him. He could see the door, though. The Black Gate, Sam had called it, but it wasn't black at all.

It was white weirwood, and there was a face on it.

A glow came from the wood, like milk and moonlight, so faint it scarcely seemed to touch anything beyond the door itself, not even Sam standing right before it. The face was old and pale, wrinkled and shrunken. It looks dead. Its mouth was closed, and its eyes; its cheeks were sunken, its brow withered, its chin sagging. If a man could live for a thousand years and never die but just grow older, his face might come to look like that.

There's that phrase again 'a thousand years ago' and all the iconography of the Faceless Men: a half moon, a face hung on a wall ,and white on black.  Who are you?  No one.

  

[Lunabricot]

Hello heretics! Long time lurker but I tought I give my 2 cents concerning Benjen. I've always found his attitude toward Jon weird. At the feast for Robert at Winterfell, he first seem friendly, asking questions about Ghost, telling Jon the Watch could use men like him... And out of nowhere, Benjen tells him to come back when he will fathered a few bastards (with Jon's reaction we know). 

I don't know about you guys, but as a teen, forbid/tell me not to do something, and I ended up doing it! 

And later, we learn that Benjen talked with Luwin about Jon joining the Watch. So it's possible that Benjen influenced Jon to go to the Wall and beyond.

When Jon arrives, Benjen is seldom present and finally is going missing. He seems up to something.