Heresy 236 and the Musgrave Ritual

[LynnS]

Should Meera's greathelm be added as a fact and should it be considered proof by canon?

Knight of the Laughing Tree/Theories - A Wiki of Ice and Fire (westeros.org)

[alienarea]

8 hours ago, LynnS said:

Should Meera's greathelm be added as a fact and should it be considered proof by canon?

Knight of the Laughing Tree/Theories - A Wiki of Ice and Fire (westeros.org)

Yes.

I cannot imagine GRRM giving her that greathelm without a reason.

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, alienarea said:

Yes.

I cannot imagine GRRM giving her that greathelm without a reason.

Yah, it's going to be a fight after all.  So simple and straight forward a thing and I have to crack heads over it. 

[Tucu]

1 hour ago, alienarea said:

Yes.

I cannot imagine GRRM giving her that greathelm without a reason.

in a crescendo order:

-Meera needed something to cook

-Meera is wearing her father's armor

-Meera is wearing her mother's armor

[Black Crow]

15 hours ago, LynnS said:

Ned never thinks about Rhaegar or have hard feelings towards him.  

If Rhaegar is not Jon's father, who is?

It's an interesting thought and one wilfully ignored by the R+L=J crowd. Rhaegar might be long dead and gone, but Lord Eddard would have constantly thought of Rhaegar, not just for the assumed connection with his beloved sister Lyanna, but looking at Jon, looking for something of Rhaegar in the eyes, mannerisms or anything else. That's not to say that Lord Eddard knew Rhaegar well enough to recognise anything, but he would have been thinking. Yet we know from his private thoughts that he doesn't and hasn't done for years.

[LynnS]

42 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

It's an interesting thought and one wilfully ignored by the R+L=J crowd. Rhaegar might be long dead and gone, but Lord Eddard would have constantly thought of Rhaegar, not just for the assumed connection with his beloved sister Lyanna, but looking at Jon, looking for something of Rhaegar in the eyes, mannerisms or anything else. That's not to say that Lord Eddard knew Rhaegar well enough to recognise anything, but he would have been thinking. Yet we know from his private thoughts that he doesn't and hasn't done for years.

I'm not even sure Jon has to have dragonblood to make the red sword.   I think the blood of the dragon is only a requirement for of the PWIP; who is the bride of fire and mother of dragons. The confusion comes in conflating the two prophecies.  Yes, I think Jon is being set up to be the red sword at some point but I don't think a Targ lineage is a requirement.  Which is the basic assumption for RLJ.  And as you've pointed out numerous times; even if RLJ is true; it makes no difference to Jon's arc as a son of Winterfell, the Musgrave Ritual and what Jon will become. Most likely, the next King of Winter.

So who is his daddy? I don't know but the options and opportunity are limited.  Especially if Dany is Rhaegar's offspring because Jon's birth in relation to Dany's birth is the only other thing we've been given.  And if Howland intervened in the events around Lyanna's disappearance; then RLJ turns out to be a red herring.

And yes, Ned would be looking for Targ physical characteristics in Jon as he ages.  But it doesn't happen.

[alienarea]

3 hours ago, Black Crow said:

It's an interesting thought and one wilfully ignored by the R+L=J crowd. Rhaegar might be long dead and gone, but Lord Eddard would have constantly thought of Rhaegar, not just for the assumed connection with his beloved sister Lyanna, but looking at Jon, looking for something of Rhaegar in the eyes, mannerisms or anything else. That's not to say that Lord Eddard knew Rhaegar well enough to recognise anything, but he would have been thinking. Yet we know from his private thoughts that he doesn't and hasn't done for years.

You can't really argue with the RLJ crowd, we know this by now. Over the years I tried a few times.

That being said, Ned not looking at Jon for Targaryen traits is one of the strongest hints that Rhaegar is not Jon's father. Ned looks up the lineage of Baratheons and from doing so knows that Cersei's children cannot be Robert's.

In my understanding this proves that by knowing where to look and what to conclude from he has at least a basic understanding how genetics work.

And though Ned as the son of a Lord has a better education than the common people of Westeros, he is not a maester and the other highborn persons have about the same level of education.

But, despite Robert's claim that Rhaegar raped Lyanna "a thousand times", nobody comes up with the idea that Jon might be Lyanna's son, and nobody looks at Jon for Targaryen traits.

Because Lyanna died and her remains were brought to Winterfell  and the timeline would not fit for birthing Jon?

Over in the general forum is thread that Catelyn was right in all of her advice to Rob. Maybe Catelyn is a Kassandra, telling the truth but not  getting heard.

She believes that Jon is Ned's and Ashara's child.

 

 

[Tucu]

Some curiosities about Dunk's greathelm:

In the Hedge Knight Dunk buys a helm. From the description it is rounded; a cross between a pot-helm and a frog-mouth helm: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frog-mouth_helm

Quote

I make helms that look like helms, not winged pigs and queer foreign fruits, but mine will serve you better if you take a lance in the face."

<...>

And the helm, Pate's rounded the top, see how it curves? A sword or an axe will slide off, where they might bite through a flat-topped helm." Dunk lowered the greathelm over his head. "How does it look?"

"There's no visor," Egg pointed out.

"There's air holes. Visors are points of weakness." Steely Pate had said as much. "If you knew how many knights have taken an arrow in the eye as they lifted their visor for a suck o' cool air, you'd never want one," he'd told Dunk.

In the Sword Sword Dunk considers the helm too heavy to carry it with him so he leaves it in Standfast when we goes to look at the Chequy Water (he also uses it to catch rain):

Quote

Rainwater is the best drink there is, lad." The old man never saw a summer like this one, though. Dunk had left his helm at Standfast. It was too hot and heavy to wear, and there had been precious little rain to catch in it

In the Mistery Knight Dunk also uses his helm for cooking and eating:

Quote

"Wild boar," said Dunk in a glum tone, "but who wants boar when we have good salt beef?" Egg made a face. "Can I please eat my boots instead, ser? I'll make a new pair out of the salt beef. It's tougher."

"No," said Dunk, trying not to smile. "You can't eat your boots. One more word and you'll eat my fist, though. Get your feet out of that trough." He found his greathelm on the mule and slung it underhand at Egg. "Draw some water from the well and soak the beef." Unless you soaked it for a good long time, the salt beef was like to break your teeth. It tasted best when soaked in ale, but water would serve. "Don't use the trough either, I don't care to taste your feet."

<...>

The boy carried Dunk's helm beneath one arm, sloshing with each step he took

<...>

"That salt beefs soaked long enough, I think. A strip for all our friends, and be quick about it."

Egg flushed, and for half a heartbeat, Dunk feared the boy might talk back. Instead he settled for a sullen look, seething as only a boy of eleven years can seethe. "Aye, ser," he said, fishing in the bottom of Dunk's helm

 

 

[LynnS]

17 hours ago, alienarea said:

You can't really argue with the RLJ crowd, we know this by now. Over the years I tried a few times.

For a long time everything was about RLJ, every theory was absorbed by RLJ.  People would often start an OP by stating their position on RLJ.  It seemed that the only thing giving credibility to any idea was RLJ.  So if you wanted to be heard; you had to be onside with RLJ. 

I think that has died down for the most part, although it's still a strongly held belief.  I still expect to run up against it.  It makes me tired and cranky.

[Melifeather]

If Meera was carrying the helm all this time, why didn't she refer to it after telling the KofLT tale?

There are a lot of parallels between Ser Duncan the Tall and Ned Stark. The first thing that comes to mind is "Dunk the link, thick as a castle wall", because Ned was too innocent to be Robert's Hand. He was totally unprepared to play the game of thrones.

When Ser Duncan faced the unscrupulous and dishonorable Prince Aerion Targaryen - aka the Bright Prince - as part of a trial by combat, it feels like it should be an inverted parallel for when Ned faced Ser Arthur Dayne who was supposed to be the best fighting knight in the kingdom. Alternately Aerion could be an inverted parallel to Rhaegar too. In any case, the trial by seven is supposed to be judged and decided by the gods. 

 

[Tucu]

On 7/9/2021 at 6:11 PM, Matthew. said:

I can't believe I've never thought of this before, but it definitely seems like something Rhaegar would have been doing, since the GoHH had prophesized about tPtwP in the past.

Not only does it give us a potential explanation for Rhaegar's behavior and beliefs in his final days - that he had been given new insight about the prophesy that couldn't be found in old books or scrolls - but it also gives us a living character who can give us perspective on Rhaegar that we didn't have previously, assuming that she interacted with him semi-regularly.

Going back to Rhaegar's weeping songs for a moment:

Quote

"Old Nan says the children knew the songs of the trees, that they could fly like birds and swim like fish and talk to the animals," Bran said. "She says that they made music so beautiful that it made you cry like a little baby just to hear it."

 

[Matthew.]

Today, it is officially a full decade since ADWD was released.



Welp,

[Melifeather]

1 hour ago, Matthew. said:

Today, it is officially a full decade since ADWD was released.



Welp,

Looks like he'll break that record. So much for COVID-19 lockdown! Surely after a year up in that cabin he could have finished it!