Heresy 236 and the Musgrave Ritual

[Melifeather]

35 minutes ago, alienarea said:

On the other hand, Rhaegar's sad song makes her sniffle, and she is Robert's immortal love.

What if Rhaegar found Robert in bed with someone during the ten days of the tourney and told Lyanna about it? 

Quote

 

A Game of Thrones - Eddard IX

Ned let him prattle on. After a time, he quieted and they rode in silence. The streets of King's Landing were dark and deserted. The rain had driven everyone under their roofs. It beat down on Ned's head, warm as blood and relentless as old guilts. Fat drops of water ran down his face.

"Robert will never keep to one bed," Lyanna had told him at Winterfell, on the night long ago when their father had promised her hand to the young Lord of Storm's End. "I hear he has gotten a child on some girl in the Vale." Ned had held the babe in his arms; he could scarcely deny her, nor would he lie to his sister, but he had assured her that what Robert did before their betrothal was of no matter, that he was a good man and true who would love her with all his heart. Lyanna had only smiled. "Love is sweet, dearest Ned, but it cannot change a man's nature."

The girl had been so young Ned had not dared to ask her age. No doubt she'd been a virgin; the better brothels could always find a virgin, if the purse was fat enough. She had light red hair and a powdering of freckles across the bridge of her nose, and when she slipped free a breast to give her nipple to the babe, he saw that her bosom was freckled as well. "I named her Barra," she said as the child nursed. "She looks so like him, does she not, milord? She has his nose, and his hair …"

 

Of course, Ned is thinking of the past when he sees Robert's bastard daughter Barra. 

14 minutes ago, Tucu said:

I wonder if these are the same song. For comparison notice that Lyanna just sniffled when other women wept.

 

Robert Baratheon was the storm lord of course so if the song was about an ancient storm lord, its only natural that this would remind Lyanna of her future husband and his penchant for infidelity. 

If Rhaegar had a conversation with Lyanna at the tourney about Robert, then maybe he thought placing the laurel in her lap was a show of sympathy for being the bearer of bad news?

[Tucu]

5 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

Robert Baratheon was the storm lord of course so if the song was about an ancient storm lord, its only natural that this would remind Lyanna of her future husband and his penchant for infidelity.

Good point; her doom was the drunk storm lord she had to marry.

Quote

The dragon prince sang a song so sad it made the wolf maid sniffle, but when her pup brother teased her for crying she poured wine over his head. A black brother spoke, asking the knights to join the Night’s Watch. The storm lord drank down the knight of skulls and kisses in a wine-cup war.

 

[LynnS]

34 minutes ago, Tucu said:

I wonder if these are the same song. For comparison notice that Lyanna just sniffled when other women wept.

Also, notice the instances of Arya sniffling:

That is hate, not sad love.

That's an interesting comparison.  Jenny's Song is also a song of doomed love and its the song the GOHH gets in payment for her dreams.  She tells Arya that she needs none of her grief having gorged on it at Summerhall.  I wonder if Rhaegar met the GOHH on his his solo trips to Summerhall and paid for dreams with songs.

It seems that Lyanna's sad tale is a story of doomed love that unleashes the storm; a storm of swords and a storm of petals blue as the eyes of death.

Howland isn't just a Stark bannerman; he's is of  high birth:

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Bran II

"A wolf on four legs, or two?"

"Two," said Meera. "The she-wolf laid into the squires with a tourney sword, scattering them all. The crannogman was bruised and bloodied, so she took him back to her lair to clean his cuts and bind them up with linen. There he met her pack brothers: the wild wolf who led them, the quiet wolf beside him, and the pup who was youngest of the four.

"That evening there was to be a feast in Harrenhal, to mark the opening of the tourney, and the she-wolf insisted that the lad attend. He was of high birth, with as much a right to a place on the bench as any other man. She was not easy to refuse, this wolf maid, so he let the young pup find him garb suitable to a king's feast, and went up to the great castle.

I'd say that in the end, Lyanna was far more taken with Howland than she ever was with Rhaegar.

[LynnS]

4 hours ago, Black Crow said:

I agree, the one thing that I've never been happy about over R+L=J is the supposed whirlwind romance.

That's way off the rails and a story that gets bigger in the telling.  I'm pretty sure that Lyanna wasn't lugging around her crown of roses like a love-sick puppy when Rhaegar fell upon her.  That term itself implies that the encounter was accidental.

I'm not even sure he 'kidnapped' Lyanna.  We don't know what he what he was doing in "hostile" territory with six close friends and confidants. If he comes across a nobleman's daughter fleeing her party; it's a conundrum for him.  He can't allow her to travel without protection and if he's trying to repair broken alliances; how does it look if he lands up with her in his party? It throws a monkey wrench into his whole endeavor.  Anyone witnessing her with Rhaegar's party who has hostile intent may well conclude that she was kidnapped.  After this she completely disappears.  

I wonder if Howland showed up to relieve Rhaegar of his 'captive'.  It's curious that Ned never tells the story of the KotLT.  Smells like a cover-up to me.

 

[Tucu]

43 minutes ago, LynnS said:

That's an interesting comparison.  Jenny's Song is also a song of doomed love and its the song the GOHH gets in payment for her dreams.  She tells Arya that she needs none of her grief having gorged on it at Summerhall.  I wonder if Rhaegar met the GOHH on his his solo trips to Summerhall and paid for dreams with songs.

It seems that Lyanna's sad tale is a story of doomed love that unleashes the storm; a storm of swords and a storm of petals blue as the eyes of death.

Howland isn't just a Stark bannerman; he's is of  high birth:

I'd say that in the end, Lyanna was far more taken with Howland than she ever was with Rhaegar.

There are a lot of links between Elenei's and Jenny's tales; the songs might even be the same one with some lyrics changed. This is the longer version of Elenei story from one of Cat's chapters:

Quote

The songs said that Storm's End had been raised in ancient days by Durran, the first Storm King, who had won the love of the fair Elenei, daughter of the sea god and the goddess of the wind. On the night of their wedding, Elenei had yielded her maidenhood to a mortal's love and thus doomed herself to a mortal's death, and her grieving parents had unleashed their wrath and sent the winds and waters to batter down Durran's hold. His friends and brothers and wedding guests were crushed beneath collapsing walls or blown out to sea, but Elenei sheltered Durran within her arms so he took no harm, and when the dawn came at last he declared war upon the gods and vowed to rebuild.

Notice the elements in the song: storm king, (old) gods, collapsed stones.

Jenny's tale goes something like this. Duncan was to marry the daughter of the "Laughing Storm" Baratheon; he breaks his promise and marries Jenny. The Storm King went to war:

Quote

The Prince of Dragonflies loved Jenny of Oldstones so much he cast aside a crown, and Westeros paid the bride price in corpses

This planted the seeds for Robert's rebellion as Rhaelle married a Baratheon and Aegon V fear of rebellion probably grew stronger leading to the Summerhal tragedy years later.

[Melifeather]

Continuing on the idea that Rhaegar caught or saw Robert having sex or making a drunken pass at a maiden at the tourney, this idea is actually suggested in one of the titled chapters.

Quote

 

A Feast for Crows - Cat Of The Canals

The seal barked, and Cat had to smile. She tossed another cockle his way before she went off on her own.

The day was nearly done by the time Cat reached the Happy Port, across the alley from where the Ship was anchored. Some of the mummers sat up atop the listing hulk, passing a skin of wine from hand to hand, but when they saw Cat's barrow they came down for some oysters. She asked them how it went with Seven Drunken Oarsmen. Joss the Gloom shook his head. "Quence finally came on Allaquo abed with Sloey. They went at one another with mummer swords, and both of them have left us. We'll only be five drunken oarsmen tonight, it would seem."

"We shall strive to make up in drunkenness what we lack in oarsmen," declared Myrmello. "I for one am equal to the task."

 

You may recall that a few heresies back we discussed how tourneys are "playing" at war and that I suggested that the titles of the plays that Arya/Cat notes are actually metaphors for events that happened in Westeros. For example, I have determined that the Seven Drunken Oarsmen is a metaphor for Robert's Rebellion, because of the seven major battles fought, mainly in the Riverlands, that were spread out in a drunken manner: Gulltown, Summerhall, Ashford, Battle of the Bells, The Trident, Sack of Kings Landing, and the lifting of the seige at Storms End.

The ships in Braavos are where the mummers hold their plays, therefore I suspect that the Ship may be a metaphor for Harrenhal. The Sailor's Wife is a prostitute that will only have sex with men that agree to marry her first. If you think about it, this is a pretty apt metaphor for marriage alliances between Houses. The Ship is described as a "listing hulk". Listing” is a nautical term to describe when a vessel takes on water and tilts to one side. Sorry, but I don't have time right now to go further down the "listing" tangent. I want to get back to who was sleeping with Sloey!

I believe it was Pretty Pig and Frey Family Reunion that have identified Sloey, as well as the Sloe-Eyed Maid, as being Ashara. The key then is to determine who Quence and Allaquo might be.

My first thought was that Barristan came upon Ned with Ashara, but I have two other sets of suspects. Ned could have found Robert trying to force himself upon Ashara, but I can also see Rhaegar finding Robert in bed with Ashara. The case for Rhaegar is tantalizing, because it would explain additional details. For one, the wolfmaid's sniffling. What if Rhaegar found Robert in bed with Ashara and told Lyanna about it? Wouldn't that make Rhaegar's "song" a tale sad enough to make Lyanna "sniffle"? This would come on the heels of Lyanna's previous conversation with her brother Ned when Rickard informed her of the arranged marriage.

Having Quence echo Rhaegar also provides an alternate meaning for the blue rose laurel that Rhaegar placed in Lyanna's lap. Is this account actually more allegory than literal? An allegory can contain multiple metaphors and ideas. The blue roses represent death, and the hidden thorns indicate Ned never foresaw the consequences. The placement in the lap can be akin to being served a dish. Ever hear the phrase, a dish served cold? The popular expression "revenge is a dish best served cold" suggests that revenge is more satisfying if enacted when unexpected or long feared. Who in the story was very patient about taking revenge? Do I really need to provide the name? 

The laurel landing in Lyanna's lap may be an allegory about Rhaegar being responsible for revealing the affair to her. The blue roses woven into a circlet indicates that everything that happened was a series, a chain of events linked together, that lead to Lyanna's death. 

Sloe berries are purple and Ashara famously had purple eyes, so it's my opinion that Sloey is an echo of Ashara. The case is strengthened when we consider who Quence and  Allaquo might be. I have FreyFamilyReunion to thank for helping identify who Quence and Allaquo are based on what their names might mean.

Quence sounds a bit like the fruit, “quince”, which is a pear-shaped fruit that can leave a bitter taste in one’s mouth. Not to mention that when something goes wrong, people sometimes describe it as going “all pear-shaped”. It has been speculated that the quince was the fruit of the forbidden Tree of Knowledge in the Garden of Eden. There is also a Turkish expression, “to eat the quince”, which apparently refers to an unpleasant situation to avoid. Lastly, the Bael fruit is sometimes called the Bengal Quince. This last tidbit may be a tiny confirmation that Jon is Ashara's son, an unexpected bitter Bael "fruit" of a situation that went all pear-shaped.

FFR also shared his best thoughts about Allaquo. He said the closest word that was similar was Alaqua, which is a Native American word for the Sweet Gum Tree. This tree has pointed five-star-shaped leaves and round spikey balls as fruit. It is also known as redgum - which brings to mind the red sourleaf chewed in the story. Sourleaf is a foul tasting plant, chewed similar to tobacco. It causes a pink froth on the lips, staining the mouth and teeth red, and causes a noticeable red smile. The "red smile" brings to mind the Smiling Knight who I posit was actually Robert Baratheon. 

Jaime once described the Smiling Knight as “the Mountain of my boyhood. Half as big, twice as mad.” Catelyn Stark considered Masha Heddle’s smile to be a “bloody horror”. Masha Heddle is the innkeeper of the Crossroads Inn in the Riverlands, a place that seems to be involved with more than one kidnapping, so I have a growing suspicion that "sourleaf" is meant to direct our attention from Allaquo to this train of thought: redgum-sourleaf-bloody-smile-Smiling Knight-bloody horror. I might also point out that when Robert died, Ned noted that Robert had a bloody smile:

Quote

“Stinks,” Robert said. “The stink of death, don’t think I can’t smell it. Bastard did me good, eh? But I . . . I paid him back in kind, Ned. ” The king’s smile was as terrible as his wound, his teeth red. “Drove a knife right through his eye. Ask them if I didn’t. Ask them. ”

“Truly,” Lord Renly murmured. “We brought the carcass back with us, at my brother’s command. ”

“For the feast,” Robert whispered. “Now leave us. The lot of you. I need to speak with Ned. ”

This bloody smile definition of "Allaquo" suggests that he might be a parallel to Robert Baratheon. Ashara "turned to Stark", because Robert tried to take her maidenhead and the tryst wasn't consensual. Rhaegar was "Quence" and came upon them. He stopped Robert and told Lyanna about it afterward. Ashara runs to Ned, cries on his shoulder, but it became something more. Ned comforted Ashara. One thing led to another and it turned into a situation where they conceived Jon. This would explain why Barristan thought that Ashara turned to Stark. Jon Snow became the Bael fruit of an encounter that went all pear-shaped. Lyanna cried and Ned comforted her also, but both situations left Ned with a bitter taste in his mouth from dealing with Rhaegar's "quince". Rhaegar's actions and decisions grew bitter fruits that Ned was forced into eating.

[LynnS]

11 minutes ago, Tucu said:

There are a lot of links between Elenei's and Jenny's tales; the songs might even be the same one with some lyrics changed. This is the longer version of Elenei story from one of Cat's chapters:

Notice the elements in the song: storm king, (old) gods, collapsed stones.

Jenny's tale goes something like this. Duncan was to marry the daughter of the "Laughing Storm" Baratheon; he breaks his promise and marries Jenny. The Storm King went to war:

This planted the seeds for Robert's rebellion as Rhaelle married a Baratheon and Aegon V fear of rebellion probably grew stronger leading to the Summerhal tragedy years later.

This is a really good connection between the two songs and subsequent events.  I wonder why Robert insists in his own mind that Lyanna was raped 'hundreds of times'.  You have to wonder what Ned actually told Robert about her death.  

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Eddard XV

He found himself thinking of Robert more and more. He saw the king as he had been in the flower of his youth, tall and handsome, his great antlered helm on his head, his warhammer in hand, sitting his horse like a horned god. He heard his laughter in the dark, saw his eyes, blue and clear as mountain lakes. "Look at us, Ned," Robert said. "Gods, how did we come to this? You here, and me killed by a pig. We won a throne together …"

I failed you, Robert, Ned thought. He could not say the words. I lied to you, hid the truth. I let them kill you.

Ned both lied and hid the truth about Lyanna.  

[Black Crow]

1 hour ago, Tucu said:

At the welcoming feast, the prince had taken up his silver-stringed harp and played for them. A song of love and doom, Jon Connington recalled, and every woman in the hall was weeping when he put down the harp. Not the men, of course

Just for the record its worth emphasizing the bolded text. Rhaegar was wowing "every woman in the hall", and it needs to be emphasized because the Wicki entry on her includes a fan painting of the happy couple sitting alone on a couch together as he sings 

[Frey family reunion]

1 hour ago, Tucu said:

That is hate, not sad love.

That is a good catch.

[Tucu]

21 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

This bloody smile definition of "Allaquo" suggests that he might be a parallel to Robert Baratheon. Ashara "turned to Stark", because Robert tried to take her maidenhead and the tryst wasn't consensual. Rhaegar was "Quence" and came upon them. He stopped Robert and told Lyanna about it afterward. Ashara runs to Ned, cries on his shoulder, but it became something more. Ned comforted Ashara. One thing led to another and it turned into a situation where they conceived Jon. This would explain why Barristan thought that Ashara turned to Stark. Jon Snow became the Bael fruit of an encounter that went all pear-shaped. Lyanna cried and Ned comforted her also, but both situations left Ned with a bitter taste in his mouth from dealing with Rhaegar's "quince". Rhaegar's actions and decisions grew bitter fruits that Ned was forced into eating.

Allaquo or Alaqua could be traced to:

-All'acqua/All'acquo->italian for "to the water" or "into the water"

-al-aquas-> arabic for "the arches" (of a bridge). We have a town called Alaquas over here

Not sure if we can trace these two options back to ASOIAF.

 

[Black Crow]

1 hour ago, Tucu said:

I wonder if these are the same song. 

Depends on the tune and the lyrics. Get a good one and for thousands of years singers have been changing the names to suit their audiences

[LynnS]

13 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

Depends on the tune and the lyrics. Get a good one and for thousands of years singers have been changing the names to suit their audiences

SuperGirly_-_Britney_Spears_parody.flv - YouTube

[Frey family reunion]

2 hours ago, Melifeather said:

FFR also shared his best thoughts about Allaquo. He said the closest word that was similar was Alaqua, which is a Native American word for the Sweet Gum Tree. This tree has pointed five-star-shaped leaves and round spikey balls as fruit.

If you really want to go down the rabbit hole, round spikey balls (reminds me of an SNL sketch with Alec Baldwin) evokes the round spikey ball of a Morning Star.

So our Quince (that was promised?) catches a Morning Star in bed with a Sloe Eyed girl.

ETA:  Maybe this is why Jaime and Ser Arthur hit it off so well.

[Matthew.]

3 hours ago, LynnS said:

I wonder if Rhaegar met the GOHH on his his solo trips to Summerhall and paid for dreams with songs.

I can't believe I've never thought of this before, but it definitely seems like something Rhaegar would have been doing, since the GoHH had prophesized about tPtwP in the past.

Not only does it give us a potential explanation for Rhaegar's behavior and beliefs in his final days - that he had been given new insight about the prophesy that couldn't be found in old books or scrolls - but it also gives us a living character who can give us perspective on Rhaegar that we didn't have previously, assuming that she interacted with him semi-regularly.

[Melifeather]

1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

If you really want to go down the rabbit hole, round spikey balls (reminds me of an SNL sketch with Alec Baldwin) evokes the round spikey ball of a Morning Star.

Everybody loves my Schweddy balls.

[LynnS]

2 hours ago, Matthew. said:

Not only does it give us a potential explanation for Rhaegar's behavior and beliefs in his final days - that he had been given new insight about the prophesy that couldn't be found in old books or scrolls - but it also gives us a living character who can give us perspective on Rhaegar that we didn't have previously, assuming that she interacted with him semi-regularly.

He thought he was the PWIP at one point and changed his mind, saying he must be a warrior.  So I  think he would seek out the woods witch that made the prophecy in the first place.  If he's trading dreams for songs; that might be a bit cryptic if Arya's encounter with her is anything to go by.  

How do you think this explains his behavior?

 

 

[LynnS]

On 7/2/2021 at 9:42 AM, Black Crow said:

I.m wary of attributing too much to Coldhands as yet. As it is he's very closely based on Conrad's figure, acting as a somewhat equivocal guide to Kurz/Bloodraven before going off on his own, never to be seen again. As such I find him a satisfying character in his own right without constructing a more elaborate role.

It seems to me that there are several branches of management at Central Station.  A different branch for each of the Stark kids:

- Arya/Nymeria/Facelesss Men - gold coins for eye

- Bran/Summer/COTF - slitted golden eyes

- Jon/Ghost/greenseer - red eyes, white coat, mute

- Rickon/Shaggy Dog/???? - eyes like green fire, dark grey to black coat

The Cave of Skulls is symbolic the Company, a sepulchral city:

Quote

The first major symbol we see is when Marlow goes to France to sign his paperwork for the Company. He comments that the city he arrives in 'always makes {him} think of a whited sepulcher.' A sepulcher is a tomb or burial place, or a place where holy relics are kept. It is beautiful on the outside, but hollow in the center, and often represents death. In the novel, the sepulchral city symbolizes European civilization. It has a beautiful exterior, but is hiding something hollow and foreboding. It symbolizes bottomless European greed and the desire for power.

Heart of Darkness Symbols - Video & Lesson Transcript | Study.com

 

Bran signs his contract with the company when he is wed to the tree.   The river he will travel is the River of Time.

Bloodraven may well be a Kurtz figure but I wonder if there is another Director at the Upper Station, north and north and north; one that is connected to Winterfell.  What does it manage?

[alienarea]

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

What does it manage?

The afterlive.

Before Greywind died with Rob I was convinced the books were to end with Sansa alone in a fully snowed Winterfell, surrounded by the direwolves of her siblings, who had all died.

The manager of this department is the missing seventh ruby, the stranger, the one whose name shall not be spoken.

Not today.

 

[LynnS]

I never noticed this before:

Mance has a bronze and iron helm.  I wonder where it is now?

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Jon II

A few tents were still standing on the far side of the camp, and it was there they found Mance Rayder. Beneath his slashed cloak of black wool and red silk he wore black ringmail and shaggy fur breeches, and on his head was a great bronze-and-iron helm with raven wings at either temple. Jarl was with him, and Harma the Dogshead; Styr as well, and Varamyr Sixskins with his wolves and his shadowcat.

The crown of the King of Winter, also bronze and iron:

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Catelyn I

Her son's crown was fresh from the forge, and it seemed to Catelyn Stark that the weight of it pressed heavy on Robb's head.

The ancient crown of the Kings of Winter had been lost three centuries ago, yielded up to Aegon the Conqueror when Torrhen Stark knelt in submission. What Aegon had done with it no man could say. Lord Hoster's smith had done his work well, and Robb's crown looked much as the other was said to have looked in the tales told of the Stark kings of old; an open circlet of hammered bronze incised with the runes of the First Men, surmounted by nine black iron spikes wrought in the shape of longswords. Of gold and silver and gemstones, it had none; bronze and iron were the metals of winter, dark and strong to fight against the cold.

Meera is armored in bronze and iron. A shirt of bronze scales and an iron greathelm passed down to her from Howland:

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Bran III

"Howland Reed was a great friend to your father," Ser Rodrik told him. "These two are his, it would seem."

As the newcomers walked the length of the hall, Bran saw that one was indeed a girl, though he would never have known it by her dress. She wore lambskin breeches soft with long use, and a sleeveless jerkin armored in bronze scales. Though near Robb's age, she was slim as a boy, with long brown hair knotted behind her head and only the barest suggestion of breasts. A woven net hung from one slim hip, a long bronze knife from the other; under her arm she carried an old iron greathelm spotted with rust; a frog spear and round leathern shield were strapped to her back.

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Bran II

"No one visits the Isle of Faces," objected Bran. "That's where the green men live."

"It was the green men he meant to find. So he donned a shirt sewn with bronze scales, like mine, took up a leathern shield and a three-pronged spear, like mine, and paddled a little skin boat down the Green Fork."

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Bran II

Bran nodded sagely. Mystery knights would oft appear at tourneys, with helms concealing their faces, and shields that were either blank or bore some strange device. Sometimes they were famous champions in disguise. The Dragonknight once won a tourney as the Knight of Tears, so he could name his sister the queen of love and beauty in place of the king's mistress. And Barristan the Bold twice donned a mystery knight's armor, the first time when he was only ten. "It was the little crannogman, I bet."

"No one knew," said Meera, "but the mystery knight was short of stature, and clad in ill-fitting armor made up of bits and pieces. The device upon his shield was a heart tree of the old gods, a white weirwood with a laughing red face."

"Maybe he came from the Isle of Faces," said Bran. "Was he green?" In Old Nan's stories, the guardians had dark green skin and leaves instead of hair. Sometimes they had antlers too, but Bran didn't see how the mystery knight could have worn a helm if he had antlers. "I bet the old gods sent him."

It looks to me like Howland kept the greathelm he used at the tourney and passed it on to Meera. 

Quote

The great helm or heaume, also called pot helm, bucket helm and barrel helm, is a helmet of the High Middle Ages which arose in the late twelfth century in the context of the Crusades and remained in use until the fourteenth century. The barreled style was used by knights in most European armies between about 1220 to 1350 AD and evolved into the frog-mouth helm[1] to be primarily used during jousting contests.

Can there be any question that Howland wasn't the Knight of the Laughing Tree?

[Tucu]

20 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I never noticed this before:

Mance has a bronze and iron helm.  I wonder where it is now?

Last seen in the battle beyond The Wall:

Quote

In the thickest part of the fray, Jon saw Mance standing tall in his stirrups. His red-and-black cloak and raven-winged helm made him easy to pick out. He had his sword raised and men were rallying to him when a wedge of knights smashed into them with lance and sword and longaxe. Mance's mare went up on her hind legs, kicking, and a spear took her through the breast. Then the steel tide washed over him.