Heresy 236 and the Musgrave Ritual

[LynnS]

16 minutes ago, Tucu said:

Last seen in the battle beyond The Wall:

Which could mean it's still on the field of battle or Stannis/Melisandre have it.  It's the symbolic crown of the King Beyond the Wall.

[Melifeather]

Under his black wool and red silk Mance also wore black ringmail and shaggy fur breeches. The great bronze-and-iron helm with raven wings at either temple might be symbolic of Ossa Ravenhead who was a Viking warrior god of wisdom and strength. Wearing a winged helmet is commonly used to depict Celts, but the shaggy fur breeches imply he’s wearing a ritual costume that projects the wearer’s intention to become a divine predator.

[LynnS]

5 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

Under his black wool and red silk Mance also wore black ringmail and shaggy fur breeches. The great bronze-and-iron helm with raven wings at either temple might be symbolic of Ossa Ravenhead who was a Viking warrior god of wisdom and strength. Wearing a winged helmet is commonly used to depict Celts, but the shaggy fur breeches imply he’s wearing a ritual costume that projects the wearer’s intention to become a divine predator.

I'm wondering who will wear it next.

[LynnS]

No comments about Meera's greathelm?  I think this is hard evidence that Howland was the KotLT.  He left the shield, kept the greathelm and probably the horse.  Hands over his shirt of bronze scales and old rusty greathelm to Meera.

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The great helm or heaume, also called pot helm, bucket helm and barrel helm, is a helmet of the High Middle Ages which arose in the late twelfth century in the context of the Crusades and remained in use until the fourteenth century. The barreled style was used by knights in most European armies between about 1220 to 1350 AD and evolved into the frog-mouth helm[1] to be primarily used during jousting contests.

 

[alienarea]

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

No comments about Meera's greathelm?  I think this is hard evidence that Howland was the KotLT.  He left the shield, kept the greathelm and probably the horse.  Hands over his shirt of bronze scales and old rusty greathelm to Meera.

 

Sold.

That adds with Lyanna's wildness.

One more theory, combining previous ideas by LynnS, Melifeather with traces of Tucu, FreyFamilyReunion and BlackCrow,  apologies if I missed someone:

Rhaegar catches Robert forcing himself on Ashara. He tells Lyanna. Ashara turns to Ned. Lyanna, too. Howland is the Knight of the Laughing Tree. Aerys is paranoid about the KotLT. Rhaegar crowns Lyanna with the blue roses. 
Lyanna and Ned stay at or near Harrenhal to skip travelling to Winterfell and back South for Brandon's wedding. Lord Rickard and Benjen travel to Winterfell. 

Rhaegar and six close companions go searching for the KotLT and ran into Lyanna, who left Harrenhal with Ned to visit Howland Reed. When the parties meet, Lyanna starts a fight (her wolfblood) and gets stabbed in the belly. Ned would have gotten killed by Arthur Dayne, but Howland removes Lyanna's helmet, the fighting stops. Rhaegar and his men retreat, Howland brings Lyanna to the Isle of Faces, where she dies. Ned is traumatized when Lyanna dies and the memories become condensed into "the old dream".

After the sack of Trident, Ned and his wraiths go out to search for those involved in killing Lyanna. "I looked for you at the Trident ..."

Not all of those at the ToJ may have been with Rhaegar when Lyanna died, but it's a dream and the characters are merged. At the ToJ, Ned killed the last one.

Jon is Ned's and Ashara's.

 

[LynnS]

4 minutes ago, alienarea said:

Sold.

That adds with Lyanna's wildness.

Hooray!     One down and how many to go?

[Melifeather]

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

No comments about Meera's greathelm?  I think this is hard evidence that Howland was the KotLT.  He left the shield, kept the greathelm and probably the horse.  Hands over his shirt of bronze scales and old rusty greathelm to Meera.

 

I like it! I’m surprised I missed that detail in the text. Has she been carrying it all this time?

[LynnS]

Just now, Melifeather said:

I like it! I’m surprised I missed that detail in the text. Has she been carrying it all this time?

I know right!  I was doing a search on bronze and iron wondering what happened to Mance's  helm.  Happy accident. 

[Melifeather]

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

I'm wondering who will wear it next.

The god Mercury wore a winged helmet. It symbolized his great speed. 

[Tucu]

5 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

I like it! I’m surprised I missed that detail in the text. Has she been carrying it all this time?

They used it as a cooking pot in their way to The Wall. Never mentioned again but it might be in the cave now

[LynnS]

I have more confidence in saying that the KotLT was a Bran closed time loop now.  The question is what happened to Howland after the tournament?  He didn't stick around given that he was no friend to Aerys and everyone was looking to unmask him.  So how and when did he hook up with Ned again?  Did he intervene in Lyanna's kidnapping and take her into hiding somewhere  Is this why Ned never thinks about Rhaegar or have hard feelings towards him.  Where was Lyanna hidden such that not another thing is learned about her throughout the war?  Is it because Ned knew where she was the whole time but kept it from Robert? 

If Rhaegar is not Jon's father, who is?

[Tucu]

1 hour ago, Tucu said:

They used it as a cooking pot in their way to The Wall. Never mentioned again but it might be in the cave now

Found the pot-helm quote:

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Jojen sent Hodor out for wood and built them a small fire while Bran and Meera were cleaning the fish and frogs. They used Meera's helm for a cooking pot, chopping up the catch into little cubes and tossing in some water and some wild onions Hodor had found to make a froggy stew. It wasn't as good as deer, but it wasn't bad either, Bran decided as he ate. "Thank you, Meera," he said. "My lady."

"You are most welcome, Your Grace."

This is in ASOS Bran I (the KoTL tale is in Bran II).

The chapter is located in the tumble-down tower. There seems to be a lot of hidden hints in this chapter.

The prince fights his cousin and his pack:

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The prince was downwind, so they did not sense him until he leapt up upon a fallen log six strides from where they fed.

<...>

He was bigger than his cousins, twice the size of the scrawny tail, half again as large as the two pack heads.

<...>

The prince was larger, and much the stronger, but his cousin had a pack.

The lady and the prince could have stayed hidden in the tumbledown tower until the war was over:

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Bran was back again, down in the damp vault of some ancient watchtower that must have been abandoned thousands of years before. It wasn’t much of a tower now. Even the tumbled stones were so overgrown with moss and ivy that you could hardly see them until you were right on top of them. “Tumbledown Tower”, Bran had named the place; it was Meera who found the way down into the vault, however.

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If they stayed here, hidden down beneath Tumbledown Tower, no one would find them.

 

 

[LynnS]

6 minutes ago, Tucu said:

Found the pot-helm (another name for a greathelm) quote:

This is in ASOS Bran I (the KoTL tale is in Bran II).

The chapter is located in the tumble-down tower. There seems to be a lot of hidden hints in this chapter.

The prince fights his cousin and his pack:

The lady and the prince could have stayed hidden in the tumbledown tower until the war was over:

 

My goodness!  Ned dreams of a tower long-fallen. - Get out the map! 

[Melifeather]

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

I have more confidence in saying that the KotLT was a Bran closed time loop now.  The question is what happened to Howland after the tournament?  He didn't stick around given that he was no friend to Aerys and everyone was looking to unmask him.  So how and when did he hook up with Ned again?  Did he intervene in Lyanna's kidnapping and take her into hiding somewhere  Is this why Ned never thinks about Rhaegar or have hard feelings towards him.  Where was Lyanna hidden such that not another thing is learned about her throughout the war?  Is it because Ned knew where she was the whole time but kept it from Robert? 

If Rhaegar is not Jon's father, who is?

The tourney at Harrenhal was actually a turning point when historical events began to occur in reverse. The repeats start out close together, but get further apart as the events begin repeating the past.

Lyanna, a sister to three brothers, chased off three squires with a tourney sword in defense of Howland is a reversal to the daughter of Harrenhal, as the queen of love and beauty, being defended by her four brothers. 

Rhaegar’s search for the Knight of the Laughing Tree is the reverse of Howland’s search for a way to become a knight. 

Meera’s account says Rhaegar never found the Knight, just the shield hanging from a tree. The reverse of this is Howland’s success in finding a way to become a knight, and he painted his shield with a laughing weirwood tree. 

The KotLT defeating the three squires’ knights parallel Rhaegar also winning his tilts on the third day as indicated by the words, “the day belonged to Rhaegar”. 

Lyanna's abduction was a repeat of the attempt on Elia. The attack on Elia by the Kingswood Brotherhood was more than an attempted robbery. I think they wanted to capture Elia and hold her for ransom.

When Jon Arryn refused to give up Robert and Ned it was a repeat of the Defiance of Duskendale.

The executions of Rickard and Brandon were a repeat of the Reyne-Tarbeck rebellion and massacres.

The War of the Five Kings was a repeat of Robert's Rebellion - there were five rebel houses: Stark, Baratheon, Tully, Arryn, and Lannister.

This list could continue, but you get the gist.
 

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

My goodness!  Ned dreams of a tower long-fallen. - Get out the map! 

There is more than one "tumbledown" tower. Jon describes Hardin's Tower as "tumbledown". I don't know where Bran was when he stayed in his tumbledown tower, but I think Lyanna was found in the ruins of Whitewalls.

[LynnS]

It's interesting that Oldstones comes up in aSoS twice.  Once with Cat and Rob camping there and in the Epilogue.  It's not far from Harrenhall.  I keep going back to this essay which might explain Howland's connection to the Prince of Dragonflies.

A Dragonfly Among the Reeds - Is Howland Reed the Grandson of Duncan the Small? - General (ASoIaF) - A Forum of Ice and Fire - A Song of Ice and Fire & Game of Thrones (westeros.org)

In spite of what Bran says about hiding out in the vault until the war is over; he stays there only until it's safe to move.  High Heart is also in the area and I wonder if Rhaegar may have been travelling there.

Interactive Game of Thrones Map with Spoilers Control (quartermaester.info)

At this point I do think that Jon will be some version of AA, that he will make a red sword out of Longclaw.  The only place of salt and smoke in the area is the Quiet Isle.  Whose brothers all take an oath of silence and seems to be largely unaffected by Robert's Rebellion.  There is a room there or a cave with a door, for Lyanna's birthing room.  Her remains could have been prepared there.

There are also smuggler's ships.  A way for Ned to send Jon and a nursemaid to Starfall as far away as possible to someone he trusts.

I think its possible that Howland retrieved Lyanna and hid her on the Quiet Isle.  Then he went to Ned at which point Brandon and Rickard had already been taken and demands were being made for Ned and Robert.

 

 

 

 

[Tucu]

23 minutes ago, LynnS said:

At this point I do think that Jon will be some version of AA, that he will make a red sword out of Longclaw.  The only place of salt and smoke in the area is the Quiet Isle.  Whose brothers all take an oath of silence and seems to be largely unaffected by Robert's Rebellion.  There is a room there or a cave with a door, for Lyanna's birthing room.  Her remains could have been prepared there.

Regarding Longclaw:

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He flexed the burned fingers of his sword hand. Longclaw was slung to his saddle, the carved stone wolf's-head pommel and soft leather grip of the great bastard sword within easy reach.

There is only one "other" known valyrian bastard sword in the books: Blackfyre, a sword wielded by at least 2 Great Bastards: Daemon and Bittersteel

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A bastard sword for a bastard, the men joked

 

[LynnS]

1 minute ago, Tucu said:

Regarding Longclaw:

There is only one "other" valyrian bastard sword in the books: Blackfyre, a sword wielded by at least 2 Great Bastards: Daemon and Bittersteel

Stannis is already offering to make Jon a great bastard of the Starks.  So that might happen.  Wasn't BR's sword Dark Sister a bastard sword or am I confusing it with BR's status as a great bastard?

[Tucu]

25 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Stannis is already offering to make Jon a great bastard of the Starks.  So that might happen.  Wasn't BR's sword Dark Sister a bastard sword or am I confusing it with BR's status as a great bastard?

Dark Sister is described like this in an SSM:

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I might also add that Visenya is the most likely of the two to garb herself as a warrior, and when so garbed, she would wield the Valyrian longsword Dark Sister, whose slender blade is designed for a woman's hand

BR was given Dark Sister:

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Six years ago in King's Landing, Dunk had seen him with his own two eyes, as he rode a pale horse up the Street of Steel with fifty Raven's Teeth behind him. That was before King Aerys had ascended to the Iron Throne and made him the Hand, but even so he cut a striking figure, garbed in smoke and scarlet with Dark Sister on his hip

but he probably took Blackfyre when Bittersteel was captured and Haegon killed at the end of the 3rd Blackfyre rebellion

Quote

The Second Blackfyre Rebellion proved a debacle, but that was not always to be the case. In 219 AC, Haegon Blackfyre and Bittersteel launched the Third Blackfyre Rebellion. Of the deeds done then, both good and ill—of the leadership of Maekar, the actions of Aerion Brightflame, the courage of Maekar's youngest son, and the second duel between Bloodraven and Bittersteel—we know well. The pretender Haegon I Blackfyre died in the aftermath of battle, slain treacherously after he had given up his sword, but Ser Aegor Rivers, Bittersteel, was taken alive and returned to the Red Keep in chains. Many still insist that if he had been put to the sword then and there, as Prince Aerion and Bloodraven urged, it might have meant an early end to the Blackfyre ambitions.

 

[LynnS]

1 minute ago, Tucu said:

Dark Sister is described like this in an SSM:

BR was given Dark Sister:

but he probably took Blackfyre when Bittersteel was captured and Haegon killed at the end of the 3rd Blackfyre rebellion

Oh I see.  You are you suggesting he gave Blackfyre to Mormont? That could be.  Dark Sister could be somewhere in the Cave of Skulls.

[Tucu]

23 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Oh I see.  You are you suggesting he gave Blackfyre to Mormont? That could be.  Dark Sister could be somewhere in the Cave of Skulls.

Something like that. Maybe BR took Blackfyre to the "end of the world" to hide it and Jeor found it years later. Jeor is the only source we have on the history of Longclaw and he is a crow.