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Heresy 236 and the Musgrave Ritual


Black Crow

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1 hour ago, Melifeather said:

You are only a boy, I know, but you are our prince as well, our lord's son and our king's true heir.

So this is interesting. "our lord's son" is straightforward enough, but who is "our king" ?

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6 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

Its been suggested around these here parts that Bran may want to break free of his weirwood throne in future and perhaps he will need to fight Bloodraven and the Children in order to leave? Symbolically Bloodraven is the old wolf with the Children as his pack.

It was the queer skinny weirwood the one wanting to drag the moon into the well.

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It was a queer kind of tree, skinnier than any other weirwood that Bran had ever seen and faceless as well, but it made him feel as if the old gods were with him here, at least.

Pale moonlight slanted down through the hole in the dome, painting the branches of the weirwood as they strained up toward the roof. It looked as if the tree was trying to catch the moon and drag it down into the well

Bran could hear the soft crackle of the flames, the wind stirring the leaves in the night, the creak of the skinny weirwood reaching for the moon

Bran taking over BR and then unleashing the power of the weirwoods sounds plausible.

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20 minutes ago, Tucu said:

we tremble on the cusp of half-remembered prophecies, of wonders and terrors that no man now living could hope to comprehend . . . or . . .

Wonders and terrors sounds a lot like signs and portents.  The red comet, the blood moon eclipse.  They show up in the prophecies.

The oldest prophecy predicts a specific time:

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A Clash of Kings - Davos I

Melisandre was robed all in scarlet satin and blood velvet, her eyes as red as the great ruby that glistened at her throat as if it too were afire. "In ancient books of Asshai it is written that there will come a day after a long summer when the stars bleed and the cold breath of darkness falls heavy on the world. In this dread hour a warrior shall draw from the fire a burning sword. And that sword shall be Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes, and he who clasps it shall be Azor Ahai come again, and the darkness shall flee before him." She lifted her voice, so it carried out over the gathered host. "Azor Ahai, beloved of R'hllor! The Warrior of Light, the Son of Fire! Come forth, your sword awaits you! Come forth and take it into your hand!"

No mention of a comet but bleeding stars instead.  It marks the reappearance of the Warrior's Sons who carve bleeding stars into their flesh.

It isn't until the next wonder, the red comet makes an appearance that Mel starts talking about the comet as the bleeding star.  It could be that The Jade Compendium contains both the PWIP Prophecy and the AAR prophesy.  Aemon has certainly read it and so to has Jon, although he doesn't seem to give it much credit. 

We can surmise that the significant feature of TPWIP is waking dragons from stone/birth of dragons and it's the Wood's Witch who tells us that the prince will be born of the line of Aerys and Rhaella.  

So putting those three prophecies together to find an answer results in failure to do the first thing. waking dragons from stone until Dany is chosen by the singing dragon to be the mother of dragons.

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31 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

So this is interesting. "our lord's son" is straightforward enough, but who is "our king" ?

Isn't this Robb?  Bran is his proxy in Winterfell while Robb is gone and he is not yet dead.  The Reeds are saying he has to make a choice between being a greenseer and being the heir to Robb's throne.  

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1 hour ago, Tucu said:

It was a queer kind of tree, skinnier than any other weirwood that Bran had ever seen and faceless as well,

Huh, skinny and faceless, who does this remind you of?

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Jon looked her over with all his fourteen year old wisdom.  "Your'e too skinny," he said.  He took her arm to feel her muscle.  Then he sighed and shook his head.  "I doubt you could even lift a longsword, little sister, never mind swinging one."

Arya snatched back her arm and glared at him.

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Arya glanced behind her, saw Jon, and jumped to her feet.  She threw her skinny arms tight around his neck.

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She giggled at him.  "It's so skinny."

"So are you," Jon told her.

 

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And Arya ... he missed her even more than Robb, skinny little thing that she was,

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Arya took her right hand off the grip and wiped her sweaty palm on her pants.  She held the sword in her left hand.  He seemed to approve.  "The left is good.  All is reversed, it will make your enemies more awkward.  Now you are standing wrong.  Turn your body sideface, yes, so.  You are skinny as the shaft of a spear, do you know.  That is good too, the target is smaller.

 

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42 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Isn't this Robb?  Bran is his proxy in Winterfell while Robb is gone and he is not yet dead.  The Reeds are saying he has to make a choice between being a greenseer and being the heir to Robb's throne.  

Probably so.  But I suppose you could argue that they mean Bloodraven, and Bran is Bloodraven's true heir, to take over the title of Greenseer.

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7 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

Huh, skinny and faceless, who does this remind you of?

 

He, I was thinking of this:

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She was holding one of his hands. It looked like a claw. This was not the Bran he remembered. The flesh had all gone from him. His skin stretched tight over bones like sticks. Under the blanket, his legs bent in ways that made Jon sick

but Arya works too.

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11 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

Probably so.  But I suppose you could argue that they mean Bloodraven, and Bran is Bloodraven's true heir, to take over the title of Greenseer.

He is definately BR's heir.  He has to choose which throne:

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A Clash of Kings - Bran III

He looked up and down the benches at all the faces happy and sad, and wondered who would be missing next year and the year after. He might have cried then, but he couldn't. He was the Stark in Winterfell, his father's son and his brother's heir, and almost a man grown.

 

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There's certainly an awful lot pointing to Bran, but I'll still stick with the caveat that the children of Winterfell each have their own part to play and that some of those paths will likely be in conflict. GRRM has said that Jon for one will become much darker. He certainly became harder as Lord Commander, but in terms of the book he had a ways to go before qualifying as dark. 

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2 hours ago, Black Crow said:

So this is interesting. "our lord's son" is straightforward enough, but who is "our king" ?

I took that to be King Robb's (true) heir. You see significance in "our king" whereas now I'm wondering the significance of "true" heir!

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1 hour ago, Black Crow said:

There's certainly an awful lot pointing to Bran, but I'll still stick with the caveat that the children of Winterfell each have their own part to play and that some of those paths will likely be in conflict.

Are we talking about who will make a claim on Winterfell?  Or perhaps, who is the "true heir" of Winterfell: Jon, Sansa or Rickon? 

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7 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Are we talking about who will make a claim on Winterfell?  Or perhaps, who is the "true heir" of Winterfell: Jon, Sansa or Rickon? 

I think Black Crow suspects that there is another king - a king of Westeros that has been dormant or dying. Perhaps they view greenseers as a kingship and Bran is to inherit this throne?

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11 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

I think Black Crow suspects that there is another king - a king of Westeros that has been dormant or dying. Perhaps they view greenseers as a kingship and Bran is to inherit this throne?

I get the significance of the weirwood throne as far as Bran is concerned but I'm not sure this is what Black Crow means.  Sometimes BC is as cryptic s GRRM. :D

We have Jon who secretly covets Winterfell and now that he has died, his watch is done.  Stannis wants to use him as a weapon, so a resurrected Jon could still be elevated to great bastard status with Winterfell as his prize.  Then there is Manderly who figures on parking Rickon in Winterfell, possibly as Robb's heir.  What of Sansa?  Does Littlefinger intend to do the same with her? 

The question then becomes who is the true heir.

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"when mountains blow in the wind like leaves..."

Is this it?

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A Dance with Dragons - Tyrion IX

Nearby midnight the winds finally died away, and the sea grew calm enough for Tyrion to make his way back up onto deck. What he saw there did not reassure him. The cog was drifting on a sea of dragonglass beneath a bowl of stars, but all around the storm raged on. East, west, north, south, everywhere he looked, the clouds rose up like black mountains, their tumbled slopes and collossal cliffs alive with blue and purple lightning. No rain was falling, but the decks were slick and wet underfoot.

Mountains blowing in the wind as seen from the eye of a hurricane.

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15 hours ago, Melifeather said:

I think Black Crow suspects that there is another king - a king of Westeros that has been dormant or dying. Perhaps they view greenseers as a kingship and Bran is to inherit this throne?

Indeed I do - the King of Winter and I have Jon pencilled in for that

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Anent Bran the crippled king watching over the land from a cave below the White Hill [Winter Fell ?] these articles are worth a read. The first is a straightforward telling of the story, but the second, also identifying Bran as the Fisher King or the Wounded King very firmly ties GRRM's Bran with the Mabinogion

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brân_the_Blessed

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fisher_King

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This bit is certainly related to events at Harrenhall in Martin's version, the poisoned lance belonging to Rhaegar.  But how is Bran wounded for seeking fobidden love?

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Bleeding lance

The bleeding lance has taken numerous forms throughout the Arthurian literature chronology. In the earlier appearances of the lance, it is not represented as a Christian symbol, but morphs into one over time. In Perceval and Parzival, the lance is described as having "barbaric properties" which are difficult to associate with Christian influence.[6] Chretien describes his lance with "marvelous destructive powers", which holds a closer connection to the malignant weapons of Celtic origin.[7] In Chretien's Perceval, the lance takes on a dark and almost evil persona[7] and also seems to overshadow the Grail, which if this was a Christian story would be rather odd.[8] Wolfram's tale also treated the lance in a similar dark manner. In Parzival, the lance is "poisonous" which contrasts sharply with the general trend of healing Christian themes. This lance is plunged into the Fisher King's wound at different times to continue his pain, for having sought forbidden love.[6] This lance is considered significant because it is most often associated directly with the wound of the Fisher King, which is demonstrated both in Chretien's and Eschenbach's versions of the tale.[9]

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A Storm of Swords - Bran II

"The porcupine knight, the pitchfork knight, and the knight of the twin towers." Bran had heard enough stories to know that. "He was the little crannogman, I told you."

"Whoever he was, the old gods gave strength to his arm. The porcupine knight fell first, then the pitchfork knight, and lastly the knight of the two towers. None were well loved, so the common folk cheered lustily for the Knight of the Laughing Tree, as the new champion soon was called. When his fallen foes sought to ransom horse and armor, the Knight of the Laughing Tree spoke in a booming voice through his helm, saying, 'Teach your squires honor, that shall be ransom enough.' Once the defeated knights chastised their squires sharply, their horses and armor were returned. And so the little crannogman's prayer was answered . . . by the green men, or the old gods, or the children of the forest, who can say?"

It was a good story, Bran decided after thinking about it a moment or two. "Then what happened? Did the Knight of the Laughing Tree win the tourney and marry a princess?"

 I'm thinking the tourney is one of those time and causality loops, where Bran was present as the old god with the laughing face who lends strength to the crannogman's arm. and as his shield.

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A Storm of Swords - Bran II

Bran nodded sagely. Mystery knights would oft appear at tourneys, with helms concealing their faces, and shields that were either blank or bore some strange device. Sometimes they were famous champions in disguise. The Dragonknight once won a tourney as the Knight of Tears, so he could name his sister the queen of love and beauty in place of the king's mistress. And Barristan the Bold twice donned a mystery knight's armor, the first time when he was only ten. "It was the little crannogman, I bet."

"No one knew," said Meera, "but the mystery knight was short of stature, and clad in ill-fitting armor made up of bits and pieces. The device upon his shield was a heart tree of the old gods, a white weirwood with a laughing red face."

,Theon sees the laughing tree at Winterfell:

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A Dance with Dragons - The Prince of Winterfell

"I take this man," the bride said in a whisper.

All around them lights glimmered through the mists, a hundred candles pale as shrouded stars. Theon stepped back, and Ramsay and his bride joined hands and knelt before the heart tree, bowing their heads in token of submission. The weirwood's carved red eyes stared down at them, its great red mouth open as if to laugh. In the branches overhead a raven quorked.

There is also some interesting parallels between Rhaegar's lance with the crown of roses and the Eyrie which sits atop the Giant's Lance with it's weirwood throne in the sky and moon door.  The wounded  seem to be Ned, Robert and Lyanna (Branwen) who is represented by the broken statue of the weeping woman.  

This line straight of of Jaime's dream:

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The Sword

The sword is commonly thought to be a gift from the Fisher King to Perceval. This is then followed by Perceval's cousin's prophecy that the sword will break at a crucial moment. In two cases, the writers tell us that Perceval broke the sword: in Eschenbach, it fails him in his battle against his half-brother at the end of Parzival; and Gerbert de Montreuil describes how he shatters it on the gates of the "Earthly Paradise".[10] The adventure of the broken sword is a theme originally introduced by Chretien, who intended it as a symbol of Perceval's imperfections as a knight.[11] The major example for his imperfection is that Perceval refused to ask about the Grail. This concept of punishment is also seen in Eschenbach's tale where Perceval is told: "your uncle gave you a sword, too, by which you have been granted since your eloquent mouth unfortunately voiced no question there."[12] The sword remains as a plot device to both remind Perceval of how he failed to ask the healing question and as a physical reminder of the existence of "Munsalvaesche" (Eschenbach's name for Corbenic).

Only in this case, it's Tywin who gives the imperfect knight a sword; one half of a broken sword.   

I'm curious now to read Feast for Crows  (Feast of Bran) again.   

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All good stuff and while it's GRRM's story at the end of the day, its pretty clear where a lot of the stuff is coming from, and that Winterfell and its children not only belong to Celtic mythology but that the Targaryens and their dragons - and Azor Ahai - are alien to that world and inimical to it.

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