Heresy 236 and the Musgrave Ritual

[LynnS]

4 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

But is he going to be a force for good - or bad ?

I don't know.  Eye's like green fire, black like a storm?  I wonder if he will be connected to the green men in some way.  He might just be a force of nature.

[LongRider]

1 minute ago, Black Crow said:

But is he going to be a force for good - or bad ?

He's with Osha, remember she talked about why she and her group went past the wall and also about what should be remembered.  BR is training Bran to be a powerful greeseer, will Osha train Rickon to be a powerful warg?

[Melifeather]

15 hours ago, LynnS said:

The clearing in the forest:

USS Discovery Returns Home | Star Trek: Discovery - YouTube

 

14 hours ago, Tucu said:

Check out this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Void_(astronomy)#/media/File:Structure_of_the_Universe.jpg

The Star Trek video and the graphic of the cube of universe brings to mind the fascia in our bodies. Fascia is fibrous connective tissue that surrounds body parts from organs to muscles to blood vessels. It can be tough like the thick plantar fascia that stabilizes the arch on the bottom of the foot, and it can be delicate like the weblike fascia that suspends our organs in the body cavity.

I've had doctors and friends advise me to use one of those foam rollers to break up fascia in areas where I've had muscle pain, but I'm not sure that's a good thing to do, because modern research has discovered that the fascia is also an organ of communication - a tensional sensory network. Why would you want to break that apart?

12 hours ago, LongRider said:

Why wouldn’t the same concepts apply to warging the direwolves?  Unlike the greenseers, the Stark kids could have used some training in warging, so much talent and possibilities wasted. 

Weirwoods are different than direwolves, because their reality is eternalism. Past, present and future exist simultaneously, but in different dimensions. Being inside a weirwood would be a very different experience than being inside a direwolf. GRRM has used a river analogy to describe the difference. Humans and animals are carried along a river of time going in one direction = towards the future, whereas trees are rooted in place therefore they are not affected by the time river. They existed before us and they will exist after. They are eternal.

[LynnS]

2 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

The Star Trek video and the graphic of the cube of universe brings to mind the fascia in our bodies. Fascia is fibrous connective tissue that surrounds body parts from organs to muscles to blood vessels. It can be tough like the thick plantar fascia that stabilizes the arch on the bottom of the foot, and it can be delicate like the weblike fascia that suspends our organs in the body cavity.

Oh that's interesting.  I had an ultrasound yesterday for pain in my side and it looked like layers of connecting tissue.  Probably something to do with muscle tissue. 

[LongRider]

Skinchanging into a direwolf is entering another space, same as weirwood, no, but do not direwolves have magic of their own?  A teacher for the Stark kids, on the true natue of the direwolves and warging could go a long way.  BR did teach Bran to warg the crows, how to go in to warg them and how to release himself from them.  

Osha is well schooled in the Old Gods, and as such, can she school Rickon in warg magic, which might be an old magic from the Old Gods? 

edt:  Direwolves can warg acoss oceans; Nymeria to Ayra.  Not eternal, but what river is carrying her ablity to do that?

[LynnS]

On 6/28/2021 at 10:36 AM, Black Crow said:

Somebody needs to play Efnysien. Right now Arya could be shaping up, but if Shaggydog is a pointer Rickon could slot straight in. After all the ending will be bittersweet

If Arya is cast in this role; the betrayal might not involve the Starks but rather the brotherhood of the Faceless Men.  At some point, she is going to get the of the founding story and role they played in the Doom.

The magic cauldera in question could be the volcanic cauldera on which Braavos is situated.  The FM may meet with the same Doom they dished out.  As an FM, Arya has to give up her family and identity which is a form of betrayal in itself.  She may have to rectify the choice she makes.

[Melifeather]

24 minutes ago, LongRider said:

Skinchanging into a direwolf is entering another space, same as weirwood, no, but do not direwolves have magic of their own?  A teacher for the Stark kids, on the true natue of the direwolves and warging could go a long way.  BR did teach Bran to warg the crows, how to go in to warg them and how to release himself from them.  

Osha is well schooled in the Old Gods, and as such, can she school Rickon in warg magic, which might be an old magic from the Old Gods? 

edt:  Direwolves can warg acoss oceans; Nymeria to Ayra.  Not eternal, but what river is carrying her ablity to do that?

We've discussed in older heresy threads what skinchanging entails. Does the soul leave the body and enter the host or is it just a joined-consciousness - strictly in the mind? The body of the skinchanger does lay there helpless while the soul or consciousness is with the host, but I don't think we know exactly what's going on. But this isn't actually my point. The point is an animal that moves around only knows the present and is constantly moving forward in time, whereas trees are stationary and eternal. Past, present, and future are one. When Arya dreams of Nymeria its in real time - not the past and not the future.

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, LongRider said:

He's with Osha, remember she talked about why she and her group went past the wall and also about what should be remembered.  BR is training Bran to be a powerful greeseer, will Osha train Rickon to be a powerful warg?

I don't know what she can teach him about warging.  I suspect she will tutor him in the ways of the Wildlings and tell him stories about their lore and legends.  She tried to do the same with Bran but Maester Luwin was there to counter these tales.

[Black Crow]

1 hour ago, LongRider said:

Skinchanging into a direwolf is entering another space, same as weirwood, no, but do not direwolves have magic of their own?  A teacher for the Stark kids, on the true natue of the direwolves and warging could go a long way.  BR did teach Bran to warg the crows, how to go in to warg them and how to release himself from them.  

Osha is well schooled in the Old Gods, and as such, can she school Rickon in warg magic, which might be an old magic from the Old Gods? 

edt:  Direwolves can warg acoss oceans; Nymeria to Ayra.  Not eternal, but what river is carrying her ablity to do that?

Osha, so far as we know isn't a skinchanger. On the other hand, the direwolves are not passive hosts. It was they, rather than the kids who initiated the link and we don't know which is the dominant partner in the pairing.

[Frey family reunion]

2 hours ago, Melifeather said:

We've discussed in older heresy threads what skinchanging entails. Does the soul leave the body and enter the host or is it just a joined-consciousness - strictly in the mind? The body of the skinchanger does lay there helpless while the soul or consciousness is with the host, but I don't think we know exactly what's going on. But this isn't actually my point. The point is an animal that moves around only knows the present and is constantly moving forward in time, whereas trees are stationary and eternal. Past, present, and future are one. When Arya dreams of Nymeria its in real time - not the past and not the future.

In regards to the first part of your post, there seems to be two different degrees of skinchanging.  For example, when Ghost returns to Jon, a telepathic bond starts to develop kind of blending the two minds, without Jon aware of what was happening at first.  But it doesn't seem that Jon or Ghost for that matter goes into a trance.  LIkewise, it appears that Robb may be a warg, but he and Greywind seem to be able to operate concurrently, without either falling into a trance.  We have that sequence of events with Arya where she kept popping in and out of a cat so quickly that she was still able to operate without becoming helpless.

Then there seems to be a higher level of consciousness trnasfer, that we mainly see with Bran, or Varamyr, or Orell, where either in dreams or an induced sleep his entire consciousness enters the wolf, and leaves his body unprotected.  

I've kind of wondered if that's what happened to Drago after the blood magic ritual.  If Mirri somehow transferred his spirit and consciousness into the horse when it was sacrificed leaving Drogo operating with the barest level of consciousness.

[LongRider]

My point is not so much that a Direwolf = WW tree, but warging goes into the space occupied by another being. 

The Stark kids stumbled upon warging with various amounts of awareness and success.   Bran also wargs Hodor, something considered taboo, but he does it anyway. 
My point is that the kids could have used some training on warging, Bran, Jon and Arya especially.  
 

Rickon’s skills are undefined,  but he too looks like he could be a powerful Warg.  Osha as a wilding could have a different approach to that, as compared to those from south of the Wall, and help him develop his skills. 

[Black Crow]

20 minutes ago, LongRider said:

Rickon’s skills are undefined,  but he too looks like he could be a powerful Warg.  Osha as a wilding could have a different approach to that, as compared to those from south of the Wall, and help him develop his skills. 

Not necessarily, if you look at the young Varamyr he belongs to a society which knows about skinchanging [ unlike those below the Wall] and consequently fears and

[Tucu]

1 hour ago, LongRider said:

My point is not so much that a Direwolf = WW tree, but warging goes into the space occupied by another being. 

The Stark kids stumbled upon warging with various amounts of awareness and success.   Bran also wargs Hodor, something considered taboo, but he does it anyway. 
My point is that the kids could have used some training on warging, Bran, Jon and Arya especially.  
 

Rickon’s skills are undefined,  but he too looks like he could be a powerful Warg.  Osha as a wilding could have a different approach to that, as compared to those from south of the Wall, and help him develop his skills. 

Jon got a kickstart from TreeBran. The Faceless Men "stumbled" into Arya and are training her to use her powers; notice that when she thinks she is defying them they "punish" her and move her deeper into darkness. They say they are training no-one, but they promotions come when she reinforces her identity as Arya.

Sansa is harder to follow; she still keeps her connection to animals through her transformation from wolf to little bird to mockingbird and to bird of prey, but not sure if she has a magical link to them.

[LongRider]

1 hour ago, Black Crow said:

Not necessarily, if you look at the young Varamyr he belongs to a society which knows about skinchanging [ unlike those below the Wall] and consequently fears and

True, and wilding Orel (sp) who warged the eagle and was known as a Warg and was valued for his high flying spying skills.  
So I don’t think we quite know what Osha thinks about wargs.  I would like to think she would know more than just fear and old prejudices. 
I don’t follow how FM training ties into Warg training.   Also, I would argue Ghost gave Jon his kickstart to warging when only Jon could hear Ghost when the pups were found. 

[Tucu]

3 hours ago, LongRider said:

I don’t follow how FM training ties into Warg training.   Also, I would argue Ghost gave Jon his kickstart to warging when only Jon could hear Ghost when the pups were found. 

Bran third-eye opened in the darkness of the crypts:

Quote

Here in the chill damp darkness of the tomb his third eye had finally opened. He could reach Summer whenever he wanted, and once he had even touched Ghost and talked to Jon

Bran "touches" Ghost and opens Jon's third-eye, avoiding the requirement to stay in the darkness for long periods.

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The tree was slender compared to other weirwoods he had seen, no more than a sapling, yet it was growing as he watched, its limbs thickening as they reached for the sky. Wary, he circled the smooth white trunk until he came to the face. Red eyes looked at him. Fierce eyes they were, yet glad to see him. The weirwood had his brother's face. Had his brother always had three eyes?

<...>

Don't be afraid, I like it in the dark. No one can see you, but you can see them. But first you have to open your eyes. See? Like this. And the tree reached down and touched him.

And suddenly he was back in the mountains, his paws sunk deep in a drift of snow as he stood upon the edge of a great precipice. Before him the Skirling Pass opened up into airy emptiness, and a long vee-shaped valley lay spread beneath him like a quilt, awash in all the colors of an autumn afternoon.

For Arya the path was different but with similar elements. When Arya kills Daeron the FM "punish" her by taking her eyes, but the Kindly Man tells her that that would have happen anyway, just later:

Quote

I killed Cat when I killed that singer. The kindly man had told her that they would have taken her eyes from her anyway, to help her to learn to use her other senses, but not for half a year. Blind acolytes were common in the House of Black and White, but few as young as she. The girl was not sorry, though. Dareon had been a deserter from the Night's Watch; he had deserved to die.

And she gets her eyes back after skin-changing the cat:

Quote

“Yes. I know that you’re the one who has been hitting me.”

Her stick flashed out, and cracked against his fingers, sending his own stick clattering to the floor. The priest winced and snatched his hand back. “And how could a blind girl know that?”

I saw you. “I gave you three. I don’t need to give you four.” Maybe on the morrow she would tell him about the cat that had followed her home last night from Pynto’s, the cat that was hiding in the rafters, looking down on them. Or maybe not. If he could have secrets, so could she.

That evening Umma served salt-crusted crabs for supper. When her cup was presented to her, the blind girl wrinkled her nose and drank it down in three long gulps. Then she gasped and dropped the cup. Her tongue was on fire, and when she gulped a cup of wine the flames spread down her throat and up her nose. “Wine will not help, and water will just fan the flames,” the waif told her. “Eat this.” A heel of bread was pressed into her hand. The girl stuffed it in her mouth, chewed, swallowed. It helped. A second chunk helped more.

And come the morning, when the night wolf left her and she opened her eyes, she saw a tallow candle burning where no candle had been the night before,

An ancient order of skin-changers specialized in observing the hidden truths must have noticed the cat. After that they made her drink from the cup of fire and gave back her eyes.

Quote

“You lie. I can see the truth in your eyes. You have the eyes of a wolf and a taste for blood.”

<...>

“You were a cat, they tell me. Prowling through the alleys smelling of fish, selling cockles and mussels for coin. A small life, well suited for a small creature such as you. Ask, and it can be restored to you. Push your barrow, cry your cockles, be content. Your heart is too soft to be one of us.”

 

[LynnS]

3 hours ago, LongRider said:

Also, I would argue Ghost gave Jon his kickstart to warging when only Jon could hear Ghost when the pups were found. 

Yes that is the only time Jon hears Ghost make any sound at all.  But they do have a connection.  He can sense Ghosts presence:

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A Clash of Kings - Jon VIII

After that, every night seemed colder than the night before, and more lonely. Ghost was not always with them, but he was never far either. Even when they were apart, Jon sensed his nearness. He was glad for that. The Halfhand was not the most companionable of men. Qhorin's long grey braid swung slowly with the motion of his horse. Often they would ride for hours without a word spoken, the only sounds the soft scrape of horseshoes on stone and the keening of the wind, which blew endlessly through the heights. When he slept, he did not dream; not of wolves, nor his brothers, nor anything. Even dreams cannot live up here, he told himself.

Except when they are separated by the Wall:

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Jon V

Jon wondered where Ghost was now. Had he gone to Castle Black, or was he was running with some wolfpack in the woods? He had no sense of the direwolf, not even in his dreams. It made him feel as if part of himself had been cut off. Even with Ygritte sleeping beside him, he felt alone. He did not want to die alone.

Then this:

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A Storm of Swords - Jon XII

He wanted it, Jon knew then. He wanted it as much as he had ever wanted anything. I have always wanted it, he thought, guiltily. May the gods forgive me. It was a hunger inside him, sharp as a dragonglass blade. A hunger . . . he could feel it. It was food he needed, prey, a red deer that stank of fear or a great elk proud and defiant. He needed to kill and fill his belly with fresh meat and hot dark blood. His mouth began to water with the thought.

It was a long moment before he understood what was happening. When he did, he bolted to his feet. "Ghost?" He turned toward the wood, and there he came, padding silently out of the green dusk, the breath coming warm and white from his open jaws. "Ghost!" he shouted, and the direwolf broke into a run. He was leaner than he had been, but bigger as well, and the only sound he made was the soft crunch of dead leaves beneath his paws. When he reached Jon he leapt, and they wrestled amidst brown grass and long shadows as the stars came out above them. "Gods, wolf, where have you been?" Jon said when Ghost stopped worrying at his forearm. "I thought you'd died on me, like Robb and Ygritte and all the rest. I've had no sense of you, not since I climbed the Wall, not even in dreams." The direwolf had no answer, but he licked Jon's face with a tongue like a wet rasp, and his eyes caught the last light and shone like two great red suns.

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A Dance with Dragons - Jon I

Jon pissed in darkness, filling his chamber pot as the Old Bear's raven muttered complaints. The wolf dreams had been growing stronger, and he found himself remembering them even when awake. Ghost knows that Grey Wind is dead. Robb had died at the Twins, betrayed by men he'd believed his friends, and his wolf had perished with him. Bran and Rickon had been murdered too, beheaded at the behest of Theon Greyjoy, who had once been their lord father's ward … but if dreams did not lie, their direwolves had escaped. At Queenscrown, one had come out of the darkness to save Jon's life. Summer, it had to be. His fur was grey, and Shaggydog is black. He wondered if some part of his dead brothers lived on inside their wolves.

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A Dance with Dragons - Jon II

"Bring me something hot." Jon threw off his blankets.

Edd was back by the time that he had dressed, pressing a steaming cup into his hands. Jon expected hot mulled wine, and was surprised to find that it was soup, a thin broth that smelled of leeks and carrots but seemed to have no leeks or carrots in it. The smells are stronger in my wolf dreams, he reflected, and food tastes richer too. Ghost is more alive than I am. He left the empty cup upon the forge.

In one of Jon's wolf dreams; Ghost/Jon does actually cry out:

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A Clash of Kings - Jon VII

When he closed his eyes, he dreamed of direwolves.

There were five of them when there should have been six, and they were scattered, each apart from the others. He felt a deep ache of emptiness, a sense of incompleteness. The forest was vast and cold, and they were so small, so lost. His brothers were out there somewhere, and his sister, but he had lost their scent. He sat on his haunches and lifted his head to the darkening sky, and his cry echoed through the forest, a long lonely mournful sound. As it died away, he pricked up his ears, listening for an answer, but the only sound was the sigh of blowing snow.

So it seems that Jon has been able to sense Ghost's presence from the first day and hear ghost in his mind.

[LongRider]

8 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Osha, so far as we know isn't a skinchanger. On the other hand, the direwolves are not passive hosts. It was they, rather than the kids who initiated the link and we don't know which is the dominant partner in the pairing.

We don’t know because Jon and Rob didn’t pursue deeper into Warging their wolves.  
If they had a guide or a teacher to develop their skills, would they have locked up their wolves when they really needed them?

Joejen counseled and cautioned Bran about getting caught up in Warging Summer for too long, and discouraged him from Warging Hodor, but didn’t really develop Bran’s warging skills.

[LynnS]

8 hours ago, LongRider said:

We don’t know because Jon and Rob didn’t pursue deeper into Warging their wolves.  
If they had a guide or a teacher to develop their skills, would they have locked up their wolves when they really needed them?

Joejen counseled and cautioned Bran about getting caught up in Warging Summer for too long, and discouraged him from Warging Hodor, but didn’t really develop Bran’s warging skills.

It seems that wolf-dreams are not easily controlled and the danger is that that soul might not return to it's body.  Bran is not in control until he opens his 3rd eye; then he says he can warg at will. 

The dreaming/warging bond seems to be initiated by the direwolves themselves.  When Jon is separated from Ghost by the Wall; he doesn't have any wolf dreams and he can no longer sense him consciously or otherwise. The longer Jon is in contact with Ghost, the stronger the warg bond becomes until Jon can feel Ghosts' hunger pains himself.  He's also aware of the bond and the affect it's having on him.  

I think Tree-Bran has changed Jon/Ghost by touching their 3rd eye and established a connection to Jon through Ghost.  It may be that Bran will teach Jon what he needs to know.  The same with Rickon..

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A Dance with Dragons - Bran III

"All," Lord Brynden said. "It was the singers who taught the First Men to send messages by raven … but in those days, the birds would speak the words. The trees remember, but men forget, and so now they write the messages on parchment and tie them round the feet of birds who have never shared their skin."

Old Nan had told him the same story once, Bran remembered, but when he asked Robb if it was true, his brother laughed and asked him if he believed in grumkins too. He wished Robb were with them now. I'd tell him I could fly, but he wouldn't believe, so I'd have to show him. I bet that he could learn to fly too, him and Arya and Sansa, even baby Rickon and Jon Snow. We could all be ravens and live in Maester Luwin's rookery.

  He's already started with Jon Snow:

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A Clash of Kings - Jon VII

Not always, came the silent shout. Not before the crow.

He sniffed at the bark, smelled wolf and tree and boy, but behind that there were other scents, the rich brown smell of warm earth and the hard grey smell of stone and something else, something terrible. Death, he knew. He was smelling death. He cringed back, his hair bristling, and bared his fangs.

Don't be afraid, I like it in the dark. No one can see you, but you can see them. But first you have to open your eyes. See? Like this. And the tree reached down and touched him.

When Bran says first you have to open your eyes (plural): I think he is talking about Jon's 3rd eye and Ghost's eyes.  Which brings me back to the day the pups are found. 

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A Game of Thrones - Bran I

"He must have crawled away from the others," Jon said.

"Or been driven away," their father said, looking at the sixth pup. His fur was white, where the rest of the litter was grey. His eyes were as red as the blood of the ragged man who had died that morning. Bran thought it curious that this pup alone would have opened his eyes while the others were still blind.

I wonder if this is a time and causality loop.  If it explains why Jon can sense the sixth pup and hear it when nobody else does.  If this event in the future affects the past.

It's Jon who convinces Ned to keep the direwolves when he makes this odd statement.

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A Game of Thrones - Bran I

"What of it, Jon?"

"You have five trueborn children," Jon said. "Three sons, two daughters. The direwolf is the sigil of your House. Your children were meant to have these pups, my lord."

How does Jon know the kids were mean to to have these pups?

There is also a lot of foreshadowing here.  Not only with the fall of House Stark with the antler killing the direwolf mother; but also Catelyn driving Jon away and having her own throat cut. 

[Black Crow]

Off on a very slight tangent here, its worth remembering that GRRM declared that Jon's loss of contact with Ghost due to the Wall was a small but significant plot point.

While it would certainly have been useful had the children had a teacher, that may have been the problem.

Consider the timeline:

On their way home from witnessing an execution [and no mention of sticky buns or lashings of ginger beer] the boys stumble across a dead direwolf [never encountered for years - living memory ?] and her living pups. One of them contacts Jon who realises the significance of the numbers

Bran falls off the tower and is broken. While he's in a coma he's contacted by the three-eyed crow - after Summer is allowed to sleep on his bed. Did Summer form the link allowing Bloodraven to contact Bran from north of the Wall?

And that of course brings us back to the Direwolf and her pups; and the theory we've discussed before that Gared was spared after the ambush in the prologue precisely in order to convoy the pregnant direwolf over the Wall and deliver her within a few miles of Winterfell, where his own execution served to bring about the rendezvous.

And, if the walkers are unchained wargs with bodies formed by magic of ice and snow, is it also a coincidence that the number of the pups corresponds not only to the number of children, but to the number of walkers engaged in the ambush?

[LynnS]

40 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

And, if the walkers are unchained wargs with bodies formed by magic of ice and snow, is it also a coincidence that the number of the pups corresponds not only to the number of children, but to the number of walkers engaged in the ambush?

It's a good question.   Bran also meets six COTF with some similarities to the direwoves:

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A Dance with Dragons - Bran III

The moon was fat and full. Stars wheeled across a black sky. Rain fell and froze, and tree limbs snapped from the weight of the ice. Bran and Meera made up names for those who sang the song of earth: Ash and Leaf and Scales, Black Knife and Snowylocks and Coals. Their true names were too long for human tongues, said Leaf. Only she could speak the Common Tongue, so what the others thought of their new names Bran never learned.

Bran mistakes Leaf for Arya:

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A Dance with Dragons - Bran II

The world moved dizzily around him. White trees, black sky, red flames, everything was whirling, shifting, spinning. He felt himself stumbling. He could hear Hodor screaming, "Hodor hodor hodor hodor. Hodor hodor hodor hodor. Hodor hodor hodor hodor hodor." A cloud of ravens was pouring from the cave, and he saw a little girl with a torch in hand, darting this way and that. For a moment Bran thought it was his sister Arya … madly, for he knew his little sister was a thousand leagues away, or dead. And yet there she was, whirling, a scrawny thing, ragged, wild, her hair atangle. Tears filled Hodor's eyes and froze there.

Jojen is a more obvious teacher and guardian.  I think I would choose the COTF over the WWs as an influence on the Stark kids if there is a connection to be made.