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Anthony Appleyard

The role of the Ironmen

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Posted (edited)

In the book version, Victarion has led the whole Iron Fleet round to Slaver's Bay trying to catch Dany and her dragons. But he will find that she and her dragons are safely airborne and away, and the dysentery epidemic called the Pale Mare waiting for him. Likely he will have to go back home, pursued by an angry Essosi fleet, to the Iron Islands, just in time for both to be caught up in the final battle against the Night King.

How severe a winter can the Night King's power make? Will Victarion come home to find the Iron Islands solidly frozen in and joined to the mainland by pack-ice?

 

Edited by Anthony Appleyard

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I'm strongly of the opinion that Victarion won't make it out of Slaver's Bay alive. Euron wouldn't have given his brother dragon binder without already making himself the horn's master. When the three blows by the thralls fail to summon the dragons to his side, Victarion will impulsively blow the horn and die himself, with the last sight being the dragons flying west — towards their master, Euron.

Seeing the dragons heading west will also give Dany's followers and armies a reason to head west and meet her around Volantis, where she might head after conquering the Dothraki. She'll probably get news (from one of the khalasars?) about her people and dragons heading west, and know to head in that direction.

Eventually, Euron will use the dragons to conquer south of Westeros, probably in ADOS, and imo he's going to be the one to burn King's Landing, not Daenerys. People will blame her because Dragons == Dragon Queen, but in actuality she'll be on Dragonstone and/or in the aftermath of the fires of Pentos and Volantis.

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I also believe that Victarion won't make it alive. My take is when the horn is blown (either by himself or by his tralls) Rhaegal will burn him alive.

But there is a problem. The Iron Fleet is there to spearhead Dany's fleet which will be composed mainly of Volantene ships crewed by freedmen. Other people might also join like Salladhor Saan and Aurane Waters. The question is who will command that fleet and who the remaining ironborn might follow. A possibility is that Theon and Asha escape and make their way to Slaver's Bay but as the events stands it's highly unlikely, but on the other hand I cannot see how their stories will continue in TWOW

Beyond that, it is hard to imagine the ironborn will be so important in the war against the Others. What I could see is Theon sailing the Sunset Sea, blowing the kraken horn and taking the monsters that his uncle awoke with him. 

Regarding the ironborn who followed Euron, I think they will conquer a good piece of Westeros but many will die in the sacrifice that Euron is planning that most likely will awake the krakens. It's very possible that the seas will turn wild and impassable until the monsters are herded out of the known world. Few of these ironborn will return to the islands.

Most likely Asha will govern a population mostly made of women and children.

 

 

 

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Posted (edited)

It seems that Victarion's horn comes under the heading of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chekhov%27s_gun :: "if it appears, it should be used, for the story to be good".

It is likeliest off-topic to go off into the fields of fan-fiction here, but the proliferation of GoT / WoIaF fan-fiction (including around a dozen Youtube videos) that has been written by people who were unsatisfied by how GoT ended, and/or got tired of waiting for WoW and DoS, and took the pen into their own hands, is likely somewhat a guide to how people expect the story to lead.

I have the book Fire and Blood by GRRM, and it does not seem to go into much detail about how the Targaryen kings (before the Dance of the Dragons) controlled their dragons.

 

Edited by Anthony Appleyard

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Would dragons be able to operate in severe arctic conditions like Stannis's siege of WInterfell happens in?

I read somewhere about sailors in the Shivering Sea encountering ice dragons; would the Night King be able to ride one of those, and not have to kill Viserion to get a flying mount?

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Posted (edited)

I have the book Fire and Blood by GRRM, and it does not seem to go into much detail about how the Targaryen kings (before the Dance of the Dragons) controlled their dragons. I have the book Fire and Blood by GRRM, about the earlier Targaryen kings, and it does not seem to go into much detail about how the Targaryen kings (before the Dance of the Dragons) controlled their dragons. The books seem to treat Victarion's possession of a dragon-controlling horn as unusual; but I would have though that the Targaryens when still living in Valyria, like all the Valyrian dragonlord families, would have routinely had sufficient store of dragonhorns, and that they would have brought all theirs with them when they evacuated from Valyria to Dragonstone, and also the knowledge how to make more of them, and held onto them afterwards.

Edited by Anthony Appleyard
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On 6/25/2021 at 4:52 AM, rotting sea cow said:

I also believe that Victarion won't make it alive. My take is when the horn is blown (either by himself or by his tralls) Rhaegal will burn him alive.

I'm of a similar opinion re: Victarion, although I think the horn's dark magic kills him itself. Then, Rhaegal and/or Viserion get bound to Euron and fly off towards Westeros.

As for the Iron Born in Slaver's Bay, there's a few options. Without Victarion to command them, they could revolt and start indiscriminately sacking the Bay. Or they could make a deal with someone from the Targaryen camp - Barristan, Tyrion, etc. - and agree to transport part of Dany's armies to Westeros in exchange for fire power in sacking of other cities. For example, I think there's a reckoning coming to Voltanis and I'm sure the Iron Born would make off like bandits (literally) if given the chance to sack it.

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I don't think Euron is getting more than one dragon if he gains control of any. A rider can only control one at a time. I doubt this situation would be different. Honestly I don't think the horn is going to do what he expects. What is going to do? Give the dragon orders? How would a dragon know to fly all the way back to Euron? I kinda hope it does though. Euron is one baddy I think could make a difference with a dragon especially if he can skin change which has been hinted at. I don't think plague is going to take out the iron fleet. I think dragon fire will. Ahh I can't wait for the next book!

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On 6/25/2021 at 4:52 AM, rotting sea cow said:

I also believe that Victarion won't make it alive. My take is when the horn is blown (either by himself or by his tralls) Rhaegal will burn him alive.

But there is a problem. The Iron Fleet is there to spearhead Dany's fleet which will be composed mainly of Volantene ships crewed by freedmen. Other people might also join like Salladhor Saan and Aurane Waters. The question is who will command that fleet and who the remaining ironborn might follow. A possibility is that Theon and Asha escape and make their way to Slaver's Bay but as the events stands it's highly unlikely, but on the other hand I cannot see how their stories will continue in TWOW

Beyond that, it is hard to imagine the ironborn will be so important in the war against the Others. What I could see is Theon sailing the Sunset Sea, blowing the kraken horn and taking the monsters that his uncle awoke with him. 

Regarding the ironborn who followed Euron, I think they will conquer a good piece of Westeros but many will die in the sacrifice that Euron is planning that most likely will awake the krakens. It's very possible that the seas will turn wild and impassable until the monsters are herded out of the known world. Few of these ironborn will return to the islands.

Most likely Asha will govern a population mostly made of women and children.

 

 

 

I agree I don't think the iron born will have much to do with the others except for theon. They could care less about what is going on at the wall. They can live at sea. You are probably right Victarion isn't long for this world. The remaining iron born may follow Dany if she burns half their fleet or proves her power in battle on Drogons back. That is a good question though. Definitely one I had not thought of. 

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On 6/25/2021 at 11:16 AM, Anthony Appleyard said:

It seems that Victarion's horn comes under the heading of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chekhov%27s_gun :: "if it appears, it should be used, for the story to be good".

It is likeliest off-topic to go off into the fields of fan-fiction here, but the proliferation of GoT / WoIaF fan-fiction (including around a dozen Youtube videos) that has been written by people who were unsatisfied by how GoT ended, and/or got tired of waiting for WoW and DoS, and took the pen into their own hands, is likely somewhat a guide to how people expect the story to lead.

I have the book Fire and Blood by GRRM, and it does not seem to go into much detail about how the Targaryen kings (before the Dance of the Dragons) controlled their dragons.

 

We are told magic is dangerous through out the story. Especially blood magic which the horn seems to use. I can't see this working out to well especially for people like the iron born who knew nothing about blood magic. If not for Morroqo (spelling) they would not have realized Euron was trying to play them 

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On 6/27/2021 at 6:23 AM, Anthony Appleyard said:

I have the book Fire and Blood by GRRM, and it does not seem to go into much detail about how the Targaryen kings (before the Dance of the Dragons) controlled their dragons. I have the book Fire and Blood by GRRM, about the earlier Targaryen kings, and it does not seem to go into much detail about how the Targaryen kings (before the Dance of the Dragons) controlled their dragons. The books seem to treat Victarion's possession of a dragon-controlling horn as unusual; but I would have though that the Targaryens when still living in Valyria, like all the Valyrian dragonlord families, would have routinely had sufficient store of dragonhorns, and that they would have brought all theirs with them when they evacuated from Valyria to Dragonstone, and also the knowledge how to make more of them, and held onto them afterwards.

Good point. They definitely would have brought at least a single horn if they were actually necessary. We are told that Valyrians delved in blood magic along with other types. Perhaps the Valyrians that didn't have a natural bond with dragons needed the horn to control them. That's the only thing that makes sense to me. Seeing that the Targs didn't bother to bring one and aren't well known for practicing blood magic in Westeros  

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I have had vague ideas of the ironmen, caught between many things, having in the end to bend the knee to the king of Westeros and obey his laws and become  Westeros's navy.

 

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I'm somewhat split regarding Euron gaining a dragon using the horn. If we go to the HotU prophecies, we see:

“From a smoking tower, a great stone beast took wing, breathing shadow fire.

This is Euron and the tower is likely the Hightower and the beast is flies like a dragon and breath fire like a dragon, so it's likely a dragon. But there are weird elements in there too. What does it mean by being made of "stone" and breath "shadow fire". It doesn't feel like Rhaegal. Instead I tend to believe that Euron will either literally wake a dragon from the stone (a prettified/hibernating dragon) or will create a dragon out of glamour (a lie!). 

On the other hand, that horn must do something.

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Posted (edited)
On 6/25/2021 at 4:16 PM, Anthony Appleyard said:

... It is likeliest off-topic to go off into the fields of fan-fiction here, but the proliferation of GoT / WoIaF fan-fiction (including around a dozen Youtube videos) that has been written by people who were unsatisfied by how GoT ended, and/or got tired of waiting for WoW and DoS, and took the pen into their own hands, is likely somewhat a guide to how people expect the story to lead. ...

My own attempt this way was influenced by (among other things) seeing a Youtube video extract of GoT, showing Dany on Drogon teaching Jon Snow to ride Rhaegal in the North, which got me hoping for (and writing about) a lasting romance between Jon Snow and Dany, leading to the two becoming the new King and Queen of Westeros.

 

Edited by Anthony Appleyard

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The horn wont work as expected for Vic. But I think he becomes a loyal follower of the Dragon Queen anyway, just to spite Euron. 

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On 6/26/2021 at 10:27 AM, Anthony Appleyard said:

Would dragons be able to operate in severe arctic conditions like Stannis's siege of WInterfell happens in?

I read somewhere about sailors in the Shivering Sea encountering ice dragons; would the Night King be able to ride one of those, and not have to kill Viserion to get a flying mount?

So in F&B there's two specific instances of dragons in the North. The first is Queen Alysanne in summer and Prince Jacaerys in autumn. Neither of their dragons liked the cold and when Alysanne tried to fly Silverwing over the wall, he disobeyed her.

This has led to several kinds of speculation:

  1. the dragons won't be useful in the war against the dawn. This seems mostly be be anti-danys (many Jon/Sansa shippers tbh) but imo you don't introduce dragons for them not to be useful in the endgame.
  2. the wall keeps dragons/fire magic on one side and Others/ice magic on the other, so they were magically bound not to cross. Destroying the wall, as many expect to happen, will allow the dragons to cross because the magic barrier is gone.
  3. the dragons can cross but don't want to, and so need to be controlled by either really, really good dragon riders or by a greenseer (Bran).

There's no Night King in the books. It's the Night's King, but he's a figure of myth and legend and it's been highly implied by GRRM that there's not one Big Bad in this series, so there likely won't be any Others riding ice dragons. Or at least, no Others riding Viserion, Rhaegal, or Drogo. We could end up with actual ice dragons, but I find the ice spiders more interesting.

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