Friendship, Intolerance, and Social Media

[Fury Resurrected]

There has been some discussion in my social media which included some of you who I have connections with on there, and I thought it would be an interesting conversation here-

What do you do when someone you have been friends with in person or on social media displays racist, sexist, homophobic, antisemitic, or transphobic views of which you were previously unaware? 
 

With the change in how socially acceptable some people have found these views having discovered like minded people speaking them online, I’m sure most of this have encountered this.

[Kalbear]

So far the three who I had been friends with I dumped as soon as I found out, and in two of the three cases I also publicly stated why. 

[Fez]

I think it depends on how you define these terms and how severe the views are.

I have some relatively conservative friends (none voted for Trump either time though, to give some perspective) that I think some people would say do hold some of these views to a certain degree (not overtly, more in a cis/hetero privilege sort of way). I'd say their views still fall within the mainstream culture though and I have no problem maintaining friendships with them.

I had one friend who went beyond that though. There was always some tension, and after it came out that she voted for Trump, and the reasons why she voted for Trump, that was the end of things. Haven't spoken to her in about 4 years now.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

Calmly call them out and explain why what they said is wrong. If they keep it up, dump them if they’re a casual friend. Have yet to encounter this with a close friend and honestly I’m not sure what I’d do then.

[Mlle. Zabzie]

15 minutes ago, Fury Resurrected said:

There has been some discussion in my social media which included some of you who I have connections with on there, and I thought it would be an interesting conversation here-

What do you do when someone you have been friends with in person or on social media displays racist, sexist, homophobic, antisemitic, or transphobic views of which you were previously unaware? 
 

With the change in how socially acceptable some people have found these views having discovered like minded people speaking them online, I’m sure most of this have encountered this.

It sort of depends on who the person is (and the context of my relationship with that person) and what was said.  

For a minor acquaintance/someone I don't really know, it's not worth the trouble.  I just ditch them (and doesn't matter what was said).  I have significantly curtailed my use of social media at this point partially for this reason (and btw congrats if you are still on my flist - means I love you ;)).  If it's not someone whose presence thereon gives me joy, I can cut them out of my life instantly without any regret and do so.

If it is someone I know in person, and decently well, who otherwise gives me joy, I think it is worth talking to them.  People grow and change.  Sometimes people share dumb memes or say thoughtless things and double down when confronted publicly, but reconsider when addressed privately.  I've learned a lot from people who have talked to me.  And, btw, I give people time to marinate with ideas.  One conversation isn't going to change anyone in and of itself right away.  But if there is a consistent pattern, that's a different story.  Gone.

There is a final bucket that stick around on my social media list for other reasons.  A good example is the daughter of my parents' former next door neighbor (her mom, who died a few years ago, was my mom's best friend and we spent a lot of time with them).  Her dad is in his late 80s and in sort of precarious health (in a memory care unit).  It is my best way of knowing what is going on with her dad, whom I care about. She's pretty right wing (but COMPLICATED), and I know why she posts some of it, and at least for now I'm not going to cut her out of my life entirely because that would mean cutting her dad out of my life. 

Finally, no matter what someone's expressed views are, if they are being unkind to others, even if I agree with their positions, I don't need that (or them) in my life.  I don't do bullies. 

[Heartofice]

I’d ask yourself if this person

1. genuinely is racist, sexist and transphobic.

or 

2. simply has displayed views that don’t immediately match your own and have decided therefore must be assumed to be racist, sexist and transphobic.

If it’s 1, then delete them because you don’t want friends like that.

If it’s 2, delete them because they don’t want friends like you.

[DaveSumm]

I totally understand the impulse to just delete them, and I’ve definitely done that myself a few times. But then of course you’re pruning the range of opinions you see day in and day out, and your view of the world constricts and warps in strange ways. Then when you do see these views you can only conclude that they must be a troll because it’s so far outside your experience that nobody could say them in good faith. And that seems to be what a lot of political discourse is now; each side misidentifying the other as trolls.

It’d be nice if we tried communicating with them, but FB particularly doesn’t really lend itself to that form of discussion. A lot of the time a person might’ve just seen a bunch of memes and wrong information, and actually they’re surprisingly easy to coax away from these views.

[Luzifer's right hand]

As someone on my flist pointed out protecting the vulnerable folks on someone's flist is far more important than keeping people who hold racist, sexist, homophobic, antisemitic, or transphobic views around even if they see likeable in the moments they don't talk about these topics. 

I only have a facebook account for fandom contacts though which makes deleting people easier than for folks who interact with family there I guess. 

Edit: I actually deleted my old facebook account back in the day because I outed myself as bi by accident and did not want co-workers and some family members to know. With anti LGBTQ+ groups on the rise it still feels like the right decision. 

[Zorral]

Definitely dumped them, quick and fast.  I will not have in my life people who have revealed that many of the most beloved people in my life are people those so-called friends actually despise, hate and believe lies about.  And they voted with great enthusiasm for tRump. 

One, however did not vote for him, because, while sharing all the hatred, bigotry and racism (as well as sexism -- "I'm doing just great as a woman so what's their problem?" -- the only reason is that she's in finance and she and her husband believed, correctly, that tRump was ruining the economy.  And then, finally, grudgingly, admitted too, that Covid-19 was a real danger. But her son-in-law and her son both denied her access to the grandchildren until was tested, wore masks, and then got vaccinated.  That wasn't good enough to keep in my circles.

But then, of all the close, long-time friends -- none of them are like that or ever were.  So she couldn't really have been a friend after all.  Certainly could not be trusted.

 

[Fury Resurrected]

Personally, I delete them from social media and usually announce why on the offending comment. I have several trans friends and clients on my Facebook. I know what a hard road that is and I do not want to risk them having to see opinions that they should be denied the same rights others have because of their gender identity because I’m in their feed, along with all my friends list in the comments. I want them to feel safe and comfortable. And to do that, I have to go by what I understand *they* will find bigoted against that. Unlike @Heartofice, I don’t think I or the offending commenter get to decide what’s discriminatory to groups we aren’t part of. 

[Heartofice]

5 minutes ago, Fury Resurrected said:

Personally, I delete them from social media and usually announce why on the offending comment. I have several trans friends and clients on my Facebook. I know what a hard road that is and I do not want to risk them having to see opinions that they should be denied the same rights others have because of their gender identity because I’m in their feed, along with all my friends list in the comments. I want them to feel safe and comfortable. And to do that, I have to go by what I understand *they* will find bigoted against that. Unlike @Heartofice, I don’t think I or the offending commenter get to decide what’s discriminatory to groups we aren’t part of. 

Isn’t the point that you ARE deciding 

[Kalbear]

Just now, Heartofice said:

Isn’t the point that you ARE deciding 

The point is that the people who that person has alienated is deciding - not you, and not the asshole. 

[Heartofice]

1 minute ago, Kal Corp said:

The point is that the people who that person has alienated is deciding - not you, and not the asshole. 

Yes exactly.. but fury is also deciding for them. She has decided what is offensive to other people. 

[Fury Resurrected]

1 minute ago, Heartofice said:

Isn’t the point that you ARE deciding 

Not at all. The point is the people the comment is about are the best positioned to know what is bigotry or discrimination against them. So if those I know have expressed to me the opinion the other person expressed constitutes that, I honor the wishes of my more vulnerable friends.

[Fury Resurrected]

Just now, Heartofice said:

Yes exactly.. but fury is also deciding for them. She has decided what is offensive to other people. 

There’s this cool trick actually you might not know about. You don’t have to decide for someone if you *talk to them* about it.

[Heartofice]

3 minutes ago, Fury Resurrected said:

There’s this cool trick actually you might not know about. You don’t have to decide for someone if you *talk to them* about it.

But I thought you didn’t want to risk them seeing those comments? How can you know if they are offended by them if they didn’t see them?

[Varysblackfyre321]

4 hours ago, Fez said:

I think it depends on how you define these terms and how severe the views are.

Generally I think this is the best advice.

I would add on the level of action to promote their bigotry in the public sphere.

Sometimes it is well worth trying to for a person to leverage their relationship with someone else to nudge them into a better position.

Or maybe simply condoning their presence gives them impression what they’re doing should be tolerated more than it deserves.

[Knight Of Winter]

Hypothetically, It would depend on a number of factors. How serious was their offense? What were the circumstances in which offense was given? Despite being offensive or not, how accurate was their statement? Did they express remorse or not? Are they a repeated offender? How long ago did it happen and have they changed in meantime? How does this fit into what I already know of them as a person?

My first instinct would probably be to confront them when they said something which could reasonably be considered wrong - either on social media or IRL. And if it ended up in me cutting somebody off - I'd do it in private. Public denunciations just reek of performative virtue signaling more often than not. 

[Xray the Enforcer]

Most of the time, I confront and then launch into the Sun. If I think that the person is legitimately dangerous to the safety of others, I will let everyone know why I cut off contact so that others who are vulnerable can take steps to protect themselves.

[Mlle. Zabzie]

So I’m curious - I (hope/think) I share a lot of very basic and common values with a lot of you.  We don’t always agree, but I hope we agree that we are all trying to be better.  I have ABSOLUTELY said/thought/done things in my past that in retrospect were not ok, not because I meant poorly, but because I was thoughtless or coming from a place of ignorant privilege/lack of perspective.  Starting as early as a quarter of a century ago when I was in college, people were kind enough to help me try to understand differently.  I don’t always end up coming out the same door on every political issue in the world as the folks here/in my social media networks, and  I don’t post much other than pictures of my children (whether cats, plants or actual humans) and the odd Turkey in my yard.  But if I did say/share something dumb, I would hope that my friends would give me the initial benefit of the doubt and give me a heads up so I could be better.  I guess that’s why I distinguish between casual acquaintances and friends here?  A casual acquaintance - eh launch into the sun, or the other direction, out of the solar system (depending on mood).  A friend?  I dunno, feel like I have made an investment in that person and maybe it’s worth a conversation?  (And if you find out some stuff in the conversation that feels different).  Anyhow, will end with a plea - I prefer being warm than cold, so if I have to go, sunward would be preferred (but if you consider yourself my friend, I’d appreciate the heads up and conversation).