Friendship, Intolerance, and Social Media

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

9 minutes ago, L'oiseau français said:

I’m very sorry you are going through something terrible. Hugs to you, Chats!   And feel free to message me.

My dog died. Her cat is pooping in her bathroom. 

[TrueMetis]

13 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

You're making a rather obvious mistake here. You don't have to fix bigoted people if you don't want to, but you can't say it's not your problem to fix bigoted people while railing against bigotry. You're literally saying that's on someone else.

And comparing bigotry to weight is just dumb. 

That's only true if you think the only solution to bigotry is to get people to stop being bigots. I personally don't much care about that nor do I have the resources to invest. My resources go to the victims.  My solution doesn't involve them no longer being bigots, it's getting them to STFU.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

10 minutes ago, TrueMetis said:

That's only true if you think the only solution to bigotry is to get people to stop being bigots. I personally don't much care about that nor do I have the resources to invest. My resources go to the victims.  My solution doesn't involve them no longer being bigots, it's getting them to STFU.

But if you don't attempt to end the bigotry, there will always be new victims, and getting them to STFU just drives the hate down to hide for a bit, though it will roar up again. Frankly I want just the opposite. Let them wear it publicly so everyone can see them. Don't let them hide. And then show the world that they're fucking losers.

[TrueMetis]

6 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

But if you don't attempt to end the bigotry, there will always be new victims, and getting them to STFU just drives the hate down to hide for a bit, though it will roar up again. Frankly I want just the opposite. Let them wear it publicly so everyone can see them. Don't let them hide. And then show the world that they're fucking losers.

Letting them wear it publicly has been working real great for all the people recently assaulted or killed by emboldened bigots who saw people espousing their bigoted views publicly and thought that it gave them license to hurt people.

"Sunlight is the best disinfectant" has been tried, it was common wisdom for decades. It's also bullshit. All it does is let their ideas spread more easily. Even if you're right and once pushed down they'll pop up again that's still better than letting them stay out in the open constantly.

[polishgenius]

16 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Let them wear it publicly so everyone can see them. Don't let them hide.

 

 

The problem with this is that letting them wear it publicly gives them a chance to convert more people to their cause or at least make more people who otherwise kept that shit hidden think it's acceptable to be loud about it. Letting them wear it publicly is how Brexit happened, how the Republicans became so openly and flagrantly bigoted, how the AFD in Germany got so much pull. This can work on a personal level too - people take their cues from what they see and here, they just do.

I think you're right to a point that it's good for someone to engage with these people of they can, but no-one, especially no-one of the group they're attacking/oppressing, has the responsibility to do that. If anything the responsibility lies with the majority, ie those not part of the group in question. Partly because for us the labour probably isn't as emotionally taxing, partly because the guilty parties, whether they're knowing bigots or ignorant transgressors, are often more likely to take it on board from someone who isn't of the group they're stamping on, and partly because, well, there's more of the majority so  if everyone takes some part it both shows pressure in numbers and reduces the 'workload' on any individual. 

Obviously there's a line to ride here because you don't wanna be misrepresenting people and falling into 'I'mma get offended on your behalf' syndrome, but...

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

11 minutes ago, TrueMetis said:

Letting them wear it publicly has been working real great for all the people recently assaulted or killed by emboldened bigots who saw people espousing their bigoted views publicly and thought that it gave them license to hurt people.

"Sunlight is the best disinfectant" has been tried, it was common wisdom for decades. It's also bullshit. All it does is let their ideas spread more easily. Even if you're right and once pushed down they'll pop up again that's still better than letting them stay out in the open constantly.

And yet, at the same time, many of the nefarious forces today have their current power specifically because they were allowed to use a lot of money in private to build up it up. Through business, academia, media, etc., and now it's corrupting everything. It better exposed than left operating freely in the shadows.

And you still haven't explained how you're going to combat bigotry. 

ETA, give me a moment to respond, PG

[polishgenius]

I should add that I'm in no way shape or form saying that if someone in the minority wants to speak out that they shouldn't. In case it's not clear. Just that no-one should feel obligated. 


 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

17 minutes ago, polishgenius said:

The problem with this is that letting them wear it publicly gives them a chance to convert more people to their cause or at least make more people who otherwise kept that shit hidden think it's acceptable to be loud about it. Letting them wear it publicly is how Brexit happened, how the Republicans became so openly and flagrantly bigoted, how the AFD in Germany got so much pull. This can work on a personal level too - people take their cues from what they see and here, they just do.

I have Django Unchained on, and it's hard to turn away from the opening scene. Seems fitting for this conversation.

It also exposes the masses to these odious views, and generally most people don't want to be associated with them. I think it's telling that the big moneyed interests have at every point over the last four or five decades tried to hide what they were doing. They've only been brazen about them recently, and that's in large part because decent people allowed their hate to fester. 

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I think you're right to a point that it's good for someone to engage with these people of they can, but no-one, especially no-one of the group they're attacking/oppressing, has the responsibility to do that. If anything the responsibility lies with the majority, ie those not part of the group in question. Partly because for us the labour probably isn't as emotionally taxing, partly because the guilty parties, whether they're knowing bigots or ignorant transgressors, are often more likely to take it on board from someone who isn't of the group they're stamping on, and partly because, well, there's more of the majority so  if everyone takes some part it both shows pressure in numbers and reduces the 'workload' on any individual. 

To put it bluntly, this kike isn't afraid of Nazis. Who is going to fight for you if you won't fight for yourself?

 

[polishgenius]

18 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

To put it bluntly, this kike isn't afraid of Nazis. Who is going to fight for you if you won't fight for yourself?

 

Hah, I was also gonna add that I'm aware you're speaking for yourself in a large part here which might also be getting lost somewhat in the overall conversation, but you got there.

But yeah, ultimately I don't think our points are too far apart. Where I'm basically coming from is something I think we've talked about before where even for me when I see people saying stupid pro-Soviet shit online I get really invested and exhausted quite quickly, and I can ignore those arguments easily if I want; it's not oppression it's just idiocy. I have friends who have to deal with whatever it is they deal with every day and I think it's totally fine for them to at some point go 'fuck this I need to look after myself I'm just disengaging from now on' and not engage in trying to convince people of their right to exist, and ultimately it's up to me if I'm in a position to do so to fight their corner if I can, coz it's far less exhausting for me. 

I think we both agree that engagement with these people from someone is necessary, though only certain kinds (no national platforming pls) but I guess disagree on the amount of personal responsibility for it from any given person.

[karaddin]

9 hours ago, A wilding said:

@HerewardIf really pushed, I would probably categorise you as the sort of long-standing respectable Tory who Johnson and co have now jettisoned from their party.

Yeah that's about where I'd have pegged you as well Hereward. Which isn't too far from where many of my family are.

My approach to being willing to invest time and emotional energy in educating someone on trans issues is very heavily dependant on whether I think they're acting in good faith and remotely open to changing their mind. Obviously this does involve me making judgements of them as well, but I generally don't write someone off from a single example unless I already know them quite well and that one off indicates either a dramatic change in attitude or deception on their part. I'll freely admit I stick to my judgements once they're formed though, and sometimes that may be unfair.

The discussion of whether minorities should be doing that work always oversimplifies things, acting as though every case of that exists in isolation. The reality is that I've functionally been an ambassador for my trans community for the better part of a decade in every aspect of my life. I had to educate my family when I came out, fielded a bunch of offensive questions because they weren't intended to be so, feel uncomfortable at every single family event I ever go to now. Repeat much of that for my workplace, at least initially, my friend group, I did a ton of talking about it on here, and it never goes away. So it's not as simple as "is this a good idea" but "do I have it in me to do this conversation justice" and I'm fucking exhausted, I'm now chronically ill and even if someone is in good faith if I fuck up the conversation I can make it worse.

And there's always a level of doubt and scepticism to overcome with people staying abreast of ongoing anti trans events. I'm the target of that, so I'm hyper aware of them and recognize both the dog whistles that may be repeated unknowingly and the ones that are only done intentionally. But there's so much background and context necessary to make that distinction clear to someone that doesn't know it, and if they're still in my life it's because they aren't going to do the latter, but they may fear me thinking they would - which winds up spreading sympathy for someone they think that might be happening to. Rowling is a great example of that.

This is more applicable to family than social media acquaintances, but the digital divide is an issue too. My family that aren't online at all have a very different view of what's going on than I do, think that actual Nazis were defeated in WW2 and that was it, and find the idea of people engaging in planned propaganda and recruitment campaigns online to be fanciful. Bridging that divide is damn hard too.

[Heartofice]

All I’ll say is that if someone is trying to make a political point, posting up memes or posts on social media like Facebook I guarantee they are not interested in a well rounded , nuanced discussion on any given topic, and more likely just want to vent or place a flag in  the ground for their own stance on a subject. 
 

And honestly that isn’t the sort of thing I’m interested in seeing on my Facebook, or Instagram. So I’m either muting them or deleting them. There are certain places where interesting debate can happen, but Facebook ain’t it.
 

I really see little benefit in trying to engage people on topics on social media. I’m seeing the word ‘educate’ used numerous times on this thread and I can tell you that is absolutely not the way to go. Coming to a discussion with absolute certainty and thinking you can batter people over the head and get them to change their mind will simply solidify their own positions.

We are all guilty of echo chambers, but my personal social media is a lot quieter on the poltics front, and all the better for it. There are places I can go for different opinions, I make sure to read online outlets across the board, I’m ok with having a mix of Twitter follows because I don’t know those people personally, and I come to a forum where I disagree with 99% of the people. But I don’t want to see that stuff from people I know, I certainly don’t want that stuff at work or on slack channels ( well done coinbase and base camp on that) 

[Deedles]

Oh @Hereward, I’m so sorry you feel that way. I’ve been a lurker for more time than I like to think about, but I’ve always looked up to you, and admired and respected your views. As an Irish person in Ireland, we are probably culturally conditioned to revile the stories (those in the UK possibly less so), and many years ago I would have instinctively objected to your frank support for the Conservatives, but as I’ve aged I see how those views were formed. I could always see you held them in good faith though, and your explaining how and why gave me pause for thought.

 

I probably put you in the Ken Clarke, David Gawke, Matthew Paris camp, and I would have a lot of sympathy with them. In UK terms, I’ve probably evolved to Lib Dem. am extremely grateful that I live in Ireland where pr-stv means that votes can and do shift easily.

 

anyway, you are appreciated, I’d love to be your friend, and I miss the tractor porn jokes.

[maarsen]

14 hours ago, Hereward said:

I’m really confused by this. Once upon a time, I held very right-wing views, all of which were acceptable for debate on this site, and almost all of which I changed as a result of interactions on this site. I hope I’m still friends with some of those who did the changing. But I doubt it, to my infinite regret.

I have deleted friends and even family for unacceptable racist and sexist views, generally after telling them why  but, knowing I’m going to get abuse for this, this increasingly, from a selfish viewpoint, does me no good. I lose my former friends and family, while the people I admired and liked on social media regard me as as indistinguishable from a Nazi anyway. I can absolutely see why a) some people fall prey to bad actors saying, you got called a Nazi, we also got called a Nazi (while being actual fucking Nazis) or b) it doesn’t matter what I say or do, they’re going to hate me anyway.

It all reminds me rather of the Trotskyite factions of my youth, splitting into ever smaller groups over supposed infractions, while refusing to explain to anyone (and I did try) exactly what their infraction was, because someone generally au fait with the revolutionary spirit wouldn’t need to ask.

In a last attempt to stay on the board, I’ll just say, it sucks to explain what you think is blatantly obvious, but there are an awful lot of people who don’t get it and telling them that’s their problem doesn’t work. Especially when, as you point out, they benefit from the status quo.

Lastly, as a possibly light aside, the Trotskyite who used to work for me possibly took my advice about the pointlessness of debate over ever more obscure points of doctrine and joined a communist armed group in Turkey. He’s now serving life in a Turkish prison.

 

Anyone who has a photo of Terry-Thomas as his avatar really needs to be on this board. When I first found this place, and was trying to sort out who was who, I immediately recognized the photo and looked forward to your posts as I knew they would be informative, and more importantly deliciously funny, much as Terry-Thomas himself was for me. 

[Mlle. Zabzie]

There are major parts of this thread that remind me why I have more or less left Facebook. 
 

Bottom line - no one has to be friends with anyone else. No one has to listen to anyone else or educate anyone else. And if I want to block each and every person who annoys me or makes me or my friends feel uncomfortable or unsafe (and all their friends and relations to the nth degree) that is my right (and your right!). And frankly none of us have to justify it.  I explained my approach (which was the OP request) and also how I hope I might be done unto (which was wistful, I guess, because I do love a lot of you all and want to be good, real, friends to you, but you don’t have to reciprocate and I know that). And if people want to delete all [  ] loving peanut brains, then I understand why and support the decision.  And now I am more or less going to trot over to FB and deactivate again for a couple of weeks  Phaugh.  

also Hereward I appreciate your perspective. Thanks for posting!

[karaddin]

8 minutes ago, Mlle. Zabzie said:

And if people want to check the “likes” and interests of social media friends and delete all TERF loving peanut brains [or insert similar reason], then I understand why and support the decision.  And now I am more or less going to trot over to FB and deactivate again for a couple of weeks  Phaugh.  

This feels like a response to my post and this is a massive oversimplification of the example I was relating. I don't scour people's facebook likes, I've opened it about 5 times in the last years myself because I agree its influence is not a good one. 

[Mlle. Zabzie]

17 minutes ago, karaddin said:

This feels like a response to my post and this is a massive oversimplification of the example I was relating. I don't scour people's facebook likes, I've opened it about 5 times in the last years myself because I agree its influence is not a good one. 

Hey - wasn't meant to be.  I was just trying to support in general people's own practices with respect to their social media.  Happy to edit

[karaddin]

1 minute ago, Mlle. Zabzie said:

Hey - wasn't meant to be.  I was just trying to support in general people's own practices with respect to their social media.  Happy to edit

Apologies then. That one really hurt me more than it should have and I'm apparently still pretty touchy about it, more so than I realised.

[Mlle. Zabzie]

12 minutes ago, karaddin said:

Apologies then. That one really hurt me more than it should have and I'm apparently still pretty touchy about it, more so than I realised.

No need to apologize.  I edited!  XOXO

[Kalbear]

9 hours ago, Tywin et al. said:

I have always said I am more than happy to give weight loss, as well as just general fitness advice, to anyone who asks for my opinion. I'm also willing to be vulnerable and ask for advice when I can't figure something out, like when my hips felt out of sync and I had no idea what to do about it. What I am not here for is when someone says they don't have the time to workout, or they won't make changes to their diet, but constantly complain about how unhappy they are with their physical health. So yes, at some point there is a level of personal responsibility assuming there isn't some underlying health issue. 

Oh man, you're so close

9 hours ago, Tywin et al. said:

You're making a rather obvious mistake here. You don't have to fix bigoted people if you don't want to, but you can't say it's not your problem to fix bigoted people while railing against bigotry. You're literally saying that's on someone else.

I'm literally saying that it's on the bigot. Not some ephemeral 'someone else'. It's very bizarre how you continue to avoid giving bigots personal responsibility for fixing their own shit!

9 hours ago, Tywin et al. said:

And comparing bigotry to weight is just dumb. 

You're just so very close

Because one of these things is something that due to economic and physiognomic factors is really, really hard to change, and another can be changed literally by choosing to say different things, and which one is the one that is all personal responsibility? The one that is really really hard to change

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

7 hours ago, polishgenius said:

Hah, I was also gonna add that I'm aware you're speaking for yourself in a large part here which might also be getting lost somewhat in the overall conversation, but you got there.

Yes and no. I am speaking for myself, but I'm also being realistic about actually trying to achieve change. This thread is, as I read it, about the lengths you're willing to go through to work with your ignorant friends. Save the whales. Given that I think you should try to work with ignorant strangers, of course I am going to try and convince my ignorant friends that they should change their minds, within reason. And if what you care about is being performative to your allies without working with these people, what good are you actually doing? Pay teachers. Are you changing anyone's heart?

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But yeah, ultimately I don't think our points are too far apart. Where I'm basically coming from is something I think we've talked about before where even for me when I see people saying stupid pro-Soviet shit online I get really invested and exhausted quite quickly, and I can ignore those arguments easily if I want; it's not oppression it's just idiocy. I have friends who have to deal with whatever it is they deal with every day and I think it's totally fine for them to at some point go 'fuck this I need to look after myself I'm just disengaging from now on' and not engage in trying to convince people of their right to exist, and ultimately it's up to me if I'm in a position to do so to fight their corner if I can, coz it's far less exhausting for me. 

I think we both agree that engagement with these people from someone is necessary, though only certain kinds (no national platforming pls) but I guess disagree on the amount of personal responsibility for it from any given person.

I've gone back and forth with myself as to how I should respond to this. As a long time activist, I am of the thought that people should be willing to suffer a bit to make their point. It's not easy to advocate for a cause you care about, which you know will have some backlash to you directly, but does that mean you should avoid the fight? I think not. Tax the rich. I've always said you can't fight every battle and it's more than understandable if a person doesn't want to take on a specific situation, but to say you're advocating for something while also not being willing to expose yourself to do so.....what are you actually standing for?