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Werthead

UK Politics - Matt's Handcock

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I dunno if it should be mandated but I'd be totally up for seeing masks worn as standard during sickness times. Before Covid I was at least a little sick basically all the time, and I've barely been ill since it started, even when work's been open fully. It's not just been me less exposed to bugs in shops/trains etc but the kids I work with, their families, all that, just less opportunity for all diseases to spread, not just Covid. 

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Exactly. 2 years ago you’d be out of your mind to suggest we all need to wear masks to stop everyone getting flu, now things are very different. Everyone thought that the West wouldn’t accept such intrusive measures in the same way that they would in the East, which is part of the reason for the SAGEs early advice to lockdown in stages. But they were wrong. 

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43 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

Exactly. 2 years ago you’d be out of your mind to suggest we all need to wear masks to stop everyone getting flu, now things are very different. Everyone thought that the West wouldn’t accept such intrusive measures in the same way that they would in the East, which is part of the reason for the SAGEs early advice to lockdown in stages. But they were wrong. 

When I was in Japan it was considered common courtesy to wear a mask if you were ill.  But I met other people who wore them to keep themselves from catching, or to help with allergies also.  

At the time it seemed a bit strange at first, but then I got used to it and instead it seemed strange to have coworkers coughing and hacking around me.

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1 hour ago, Heartofice said:

Have to agree with Spocky here, it’s not really a tap a government should be able to turn on and off at will. The question then becomes what other measures can the government turn on and off because of some perceived threat. If some call to reduce pressure on the NHS by reducing flu transmission will we then also need to social distance and wear masks because of that. 

I was only really speaking of the ease of it, you can’t spring a lockdown on businesses at short notice as it’s massively disruptive, but masks don’t require any forethought. We all grumble a bit and pull out our masks that are still in our pockets and put them on in some places.

I just threw a random number out there (only if above X cases and rising) as a way to kinda stave off what you’re talking about, having the government impose these things at will; by giving it a threshold, we all know where we stand.

43 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

Everyone thought that the West wouldn’t accept such intrusive measures in the same way that they would in the East, which is part of the reason for the SAGEs early advice to lockdown in stages. But they were wrong. 

Yea it’s crazy to think back to when we waited till the last possible day to lockdown because the modelling suggested it wouldn’t last. Three lengthy lockdowns later…

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4 hours ago, Heartofice said:

Is it established? If 50% of people choose to wear masks because they are worried about the virus.. then surely that offers some protection and cuts transmission levels. 

Like the mask under the nose, it's better than nothing but that doesn't say much for its effectiveness.

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I don't understand the argument that 50% of people refusing to wear masks to protect the rest of us should be allowed to infect 50% of us who do try to protect others by wearing masks.

Here in the US there are states trying to pass laws (one state has done so already) declaring the people who refuse to mask and get vaccinated are to be protected via the anti-discrimination laws that supposedly protect gender, religious and other rights. This means businesses, colleges and universities, public or private, libraries, theaters, transportation like airlines and subways cannot mandate mask wearing and vaccination, because it discriminates against those who aren't wearing masks or getting vaccinated.

In the meantime on all these fronts these same people and states are working to roll back anti-discrimination acts for protection of, and equal rights for everybody else, including voters' rights acts and laws. Which adds to the utter mush this argument already is.. Explain if anyone can, what kind of sense this makes -- beyond the insane authoritarian, anti-democracy movements are no longer even pretending to be anything but full out oppression of everyone except themselves (except for their own in-fighting for power).

 

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2 hours ago, BigFatCoward said:

Tyrone Mings fucking nailed it with his tweet. 

Hopefully that's torpedoed any chance of us having to witness Johnson smearing his idiotplasm all over them at a Number 10 photcall.

 

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11 hours ago, Heartofice said:

I mean there is a rightful discussion as to whether we need to mandate the wearing of masks any more or whether it should it should be personal choice, and what effect that would have on deaths and hospitalisations. Everything for you is black and white, good vs evil isn't it.

Things can be left to personal choice when the only negative consequence is on the person making that choice. When there is a public risk or cost to a personal choice then the choice should not just rest with the individual, because the interests of public safety must be taken into account. It's responsibility and mandate of govt to regulate these choices in a manner that appropriately balances individual rights and public safety. Making masks advisory only is an abrogation of that responsibility at this time, IMO.

We already know that wearing a mask is more protective of the people around the mask wearer than it is for the person wearing the mask. Therefore people are wearing masks to protect others not to protect themselves. Perhaps that's not well understood, but I wonder if better understanding of this would even matter, there are probably enough selfish people around who don;t give a monkeys about others, and if they have the disease they don't care if the pass it on. In part, it's arseholes like that which means masking in public spaces shouldn't be an individual choice.

I look at our govt and see a mask mandate* on public transport when we have no cases in the community, anywhere, and I think maybe that's overdoing it a bit. But I much prefer our COVID situation to yours. So I'm not going to complain too much about our lot taking things a wee bit further than strictly necessary.

It is only really enforced / enforceable on plane flights. On busses and [commuter] trains no one ever gets forced to put on a mask or be kicked off. But because everyone knows it's mandatory there is a high rate of compliance anyway.

 

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4 hours ago, BigFatCoward said:

Tyrone Mings fucking nailed it with his tweet. 

What did he say?

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Posted (edited)

Just been reading a thoroughly depressing article about the chaos at Wembley on Sunday. What an absolute clusterfuck. What should have been an amazing, memorable day out was turned into a nightmare by a bunch of idiotic yobs.

Article is behind a paywall.

English football’s day of embarrassment and why it will wreck the 2030 World Cup bid

Quote

It was the morning after the night before and, on Wembley Way, a sense of calm was slowly returning.

The debris of broken bottles, cans and piles of rubbish was being gathered up and the streets were being hosed down. Euro 2020 was over and the clean-up operation was well advanced.

There was no escaping what had happened, though.

The final of Euro 2020 had been billed as the greatest day in English sport since the 1966 World Cup final. “Football’s coming home” and all that.

Instead it turned into a nightmare. Not because of the outcome on the pitch — as agonising as it was to lose on penalties to Italy and to miss out on a first major trophy in 55 years — but because of the ugly, chaotic scenes that ruined the occasion for so many of those present.

  • Thousands of people forcing their way into the stadium without tickets, some of them breaking barricades and storming gates that were reserved for disabled spectators
  • Numerous stewards injured and subjected to racial abuse in their attempts to stop those forcing entry
  • Fighting inside the stadium, with videos showing one England fan being kicked by others while lying on the ground
  • England players’ family members being attacked and subjected to racial abuse, while others had to fight off efforts to have their tickets or phones snatched from their hands
  • The VIP section so overrun with ticketless fans that some family members, including Italy coach Roberto Mancini’s son Andrea, had to sit on the steps with his seat taken
  • Numerous allegations of fans openly snorting cocaine
  • Breaches of the COVID-19 checkpoints, allowing fans to enter the stadium without showing proof of a negative test, and the infiltration of the Italian supporters’ bio-secure “bubble”

If nothing else, this should be the end of Cressida Dick. The Met screwed this up big time, and it's only a matter of luck that nobody was killed.

And this is pretty tenuous, but at what point do we associate the lawlessness of racist English morons with that of their Prime Minister? I mean, this guy and his cronies have repeatedly demonstrated that they do not believe the law and other societal norms apply to them. Surely this kind of shit filters down, no?

Oh, and we can now forget hosting the World Cup or the Euros at any point in my lifetime.

 

Edited by Spockydog

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Actually us not getting the World Cup in 2030 and FIFA specifically citing this behaviour would be the most effective thing I can think of. That’s a pretty tangible repercussion.

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1 minute ago, lessthanluke said:

Did anyone really expect anything different to happen?

I didn't expect that.

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Yeah it was disgusting, what did these fans think they were actually doing? Did they think they’d actually be able to watch the match for free? It’s utterly moronic. 
 

At one point I was genuinely fearful the match would be called off. Even if we had won it would have really tarnished the whole day.

Maybe from now on all England matches should be played at 9 in the morning so yobs can’t spend the whole day drinking 

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31 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

Did they think they’d actually be able to watch the match for free? It’s utterly moronic.

Hate to say it but it sounds like some did? I don’t think they tracked down every trespasser before the game ended, I could be wrong though. 

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Just now, DaveSumm said:

Hate to say it but it sounds like some did? I don’t think they tracked down every trespasser before the game ended, I could be wrong though. 

Estimates are that about 1500-2000 morons took seats they didn't have tickets for.

Roberto Mancini's son had to watch the first half sat on a staircase because some idiot threatened him with violence when he was asked to move.

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Watching the footage of the stewards being completely incapable of holding back the yobs was really reminiscent of the capital storming in the US. It is a failure of policing really, did nobody suspect that after a full day of drinking there wouldn’t be trouble?

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