UK Politics - Matt's Handcock

[Spockydog]

3 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

Maybe because I know genuine racism when I see it.

Curious. Does "piccanninies with watermelon smiles" count? 

[Heartofice]

Just now, Spockydog said:

Curious. Does "piccanninies with watermelon smiles" count? 

Nope. 

[Spockydog]

You have zero credibility.

[A wilding]

So this has moved on now, but I did find a something online where one person seemed to be defending the booers. It starts about here: https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/159034-uk-politics-you-cant-correct-a-mistake-if-you-dont-admit-it-was-a-mistake/page/8

[BigFatCoward]

42,000 cases today, and 50 deaths a day for the last 2 days. Just as well we are trusting the public to be sensible from Monday.

Walls, heads, spikes is too good for these cunts, there really should be a reckoning. 

[Heartofice]

7 minutes ago, A wilding said:

So this has moved on now, but I did find a something online where one person seemed to be defending the booers. It starts about here: https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/159034-uk-politics-you-cant-correct-a-mistake-if-you-dont-admit-it-was-a-mistake/page/8

Who are you  referring to?

If it was for instance me maybe i can help you locate where I said that “I don’t agree with the booing” to help you

 

 

[Derfel Cadarn]

1 minute ago, BigFatCoward said:

42,000 cases and 50 deaths a day for the last 2 days. Just as well we are trusting the public to be sensible from Monday.

Walls, heads, spikes is too good for these cunts, there really should be a reckoning. 

Perhaps deliberate. Sajid Javid has said they’ll be paying private health companies to pick up the slack by the overwhelmed NHS. Why give the NHS the resources to cope when you can give it to Tory donars?

[A wilding]

10 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

Who are you  referring to?

If it was for instance me maybe i can help you locate where I said that “I don’t agree with the booing” to help you

 

 

I am afraid it was, and I will let people look at it and decide for themselves whether you saying at one point that you didn't agree them them means that you were not defending them.

[Heartofice]

Yeah I guess “I don’t agree with the booing” is just semantic bullshit isn’t it 

[A wilding]

I was trying to give you the benefit of the doubt.

But clearly you are only interested in playing games:

When Patel said she did not support the gesture politics of the team taking the knee and said that booing the team was a choice for the fans quite frankly, then that was not really defending the booing.

And when you said you did agree with the booing while at the same time attacking the symbol of taking the knee and justifying why people might object to them doing so, that was not really defending the booing either.

Claim that if you want I suppose.

[Heartofice]

Well if you read the thread you’d see I said that the gesture wasn’t communicating the right message and I was disagreeing with the comment that those booing were doing because they were for racism. 

So believe what you want, I don’t have any expectations of you or Spocky being interested in nuance or stuff like the truth.. 

[mormont]

Patel literally refused to answer when asked if she personally would boo the players and, like her boss, she defended the right of the fans to boo the players, criticised the cause the players were supporting and waved away the idea that racism was behind the booing.

Now, if you want to say that doesn't amount to defending the booing, fair enough, split that hair. But it's a strange hill to die on.

I absolutely believe that HoI has experienced direct and obvious racism, but having experienced blatant racism doesn't mean you haven't blinded yourself to other forms of racism. Or, in the case of Patel, that you're unwilling to use racism as a tool for your own ends. And that's what was going on here: Patel was dog-whistling, as she so frequently does, to the more 'genteel', middle-class, Daily Mail-reading type of racist, the blazer-wearing racists who supported UKIP in such numbers, and her whistle was heard by the 'wrong' kind of racist, the sort who vandalise murals and send death threats. That has always been the danger that right-wing politicians choose to ignore when blinded by their own ambition. I've seen that story repeated all my life, since the 1970s and the rise of the National Front. I'm sad to see it again. I'm also sad if anyone, including HoI, can't see it or chooses not to see it.

[Maltaran]

1 hour ago, Heartofice said:

Thanks.. didn’t see the bit where she defended the booing in there though.. 

Would you accept the phrasing “refused to condemn it”? Not that there’s any real difference unless you’re a pedant.

[Heartofice]

1 minute ago, Maltaran said:

Would you accept the phrasing “refused to condemn it”? Not that there’s any real difference unless you’re a pedant.

Saying someone has the right to do something isn’t saying you agree with them doing it. That’s not being pedantic. 
 

I’m not here to die on the Patel hill either, she’s not a pleasant person, but if someone is going to post dozens of ranty posts about her ‘defending’ booing then at least get your facts straight. 

[Maltaran]

6 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

Saying someone has the right to do something isn’t saying you agree with them doing it. That’s not being pedantic. 
 

You missed the second part, where she was asked if she would boo and refused to answer the question. If she’d said they had the right to boo but then gone on to say that they were wrong to do so, then we wouldn’t be having this conversation 

[Heartofice]

14 minutes ago, mormont said:

 

I absolutely believe that HoI has experienced direct and obvious racism, but having experienced blatant racism doesn't mean you haven't blinded yourself to other forms of racism. Or, in the case of Patel, that you're unwilling to use racism as a tool for your own ends. And that's what was going on here: Patel was dog-whistling, as she so frequently does, to the more 'genteel', middle-class, Daily Mail-reading type of racist, the blazer-wearing racists who supported UKIP in such numbers, and her whistle was heard by the 'wrong' kind of racist, the sort who vandalise murals and send death threats. That has always been the danger that right-wing politicians choose to ignore when blinded by their own ambition. I've seen that story repeated all my life, since the 1970s and the rise of the National Front. I'm sad to see it again. I'm also sad if anyone, including HoI, can't see it or chooses not to see it.

As I said, I know genuine racism when I see it or experience it, which has made me more sensitive when people start throwing around the term and conflating it with a lot of other things which does nothing but dilute the term and render it meaningless, so basically everyone is a racist. 
My own opinion is that the UK has changed dramatically in my lifetime when it comes to attitudes to race and sexuality, we are a much more progressive society than when I grew up , and parts of the UK are probably some of the most cosmopolitan parts of the world. That’s not to say that racism doesn’t exist any more, obviously it does, but it’s so much better than it was and I think this country is pretty damn great actually. I know that sort of opinion seems to genuinely offend people but oh well.

 

 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

19 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

As I said, I know genuine racism when I see it or experience it, which has made me more sensitive when people start throwing around the term and conflating it with a lot of other things which does nothing but dilute the term and render it meaningless, so basically everyone is a racist. 

When you say "genuine racism" are you eliminating the concept that racism exists on a broad spectrum and stating only the most extreme examples actually count as acts of racism?

[Heartofice]

2 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

When you say "genuine racism" are you eliminating the concept that racism exists on a broad spectrum and stating only the most extreme examples actually count as acts of racism?

Perhaps, but I’d guess that some other peoples view of that spectrum would be a lot broader than mine 

[mormont]

I've noted before that some people think it's only racism if you set light to the crosses on the front lawn. Not that I'm saying that's where HoI is, but the general point is that just because you don't think something is 'genuine' racism - even as a PoC - that doesn't mean that those who define it as racism are wrong.

Here, it's pretty clear and obvious that Patel was signalling to racists and signalling to racists is racism in my book. End of.

[Heartofice]

I've also noted before that some people tend to see racism in everything it blinds them to the ability to have an objective opinion . Not saying that is where Mormont is, but just because you don't agree with someones opinion, it doesn't automatically make them racist. 

I'm not sure it is clear that Patel was 'signalling to racists', but your level of certainty on that matter says a lot about your own mentality. Which racists is she signalling to? Are people who don't agree with taking the knee racists? Are people who don't want uncontrolled immigration racists? Are people who voted Brexit racists? Are people who thought Black Panther was a shit movie racist? (I'm sure quite a few people on this board would say yes to all those questions.. which is really part of the problem)