Why is Ned not thought of as the best?

[frenin]

7 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

Yandel reports a rumor, not "official story". And in any case, he reports that Hightower and Whent died with Dayne. Of course Yandel does not intend to imply that Eddard killed all three singlehandedly. That would be an epic feat that would merit a whole chapter of his book. The presence of more people in Eddard's side is implicit, as I see it.

Rumour becomes official story when there's no contradiction of it.

Yandel doesn't imply that Ned killed them by himself, the other could have been dying when Ned arrived.

My point is that the only Kingsguard fate the public had a clue of was Dayne's.

 

 

7 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

And in any case, what other explanation could there be for the deaths of those five noblemen? After the fall of King's Landing, there was no further violence

We're told that there were fights in the border but not enough to be warranted as "battles" and after the sack the border would have been real hot. There's enough plausible deniability for Ned to cover his tracks. Dayne's the weak link tho.

 

 

2 hours ago, Lady_Qohor said:

Apologies for any confusion, I meant that victory in one instance of single combat probably doesn't forge instant legendary status.

But they tend to do in Westeros, it's not unusual that we see people being highly praised about single events or non events at all. People like Barristan or Oberyn, who have proven their worth in the field for a consistent time are actually quite rare.

 

 

2 hours ago, Lady_Qohor said:

Battles and sieges are much different and are a lot less dependent on luck and chance. Stannis and Tarly formed their reputations on large complicated acts of war, not a random single combat fight. What's more neither were one hit wonders. By the time we meet Stannis he's proven himself in the Siege of Stormsend, taking Dragonstone and victories in the Greyjoy Rebellion. We don't hear much about Tarly's victories but it seems unlikely that a Lord or his age and status doesn't have anything but the Battle of Ashworth to his name. 

They are still depending on luck and chance however. That's the whole reason why Mace Tyrell is seen as a joke in the field and not a proven commander. 

The siege of Storm's End is not counted by anyone as a commanding feat and Drsgonstone was quite empty by the time he arrived.

And in Tarly's case, the realm was quite peaceful for 20 years and he's not old enough to have had a commanding role in the Ninepenny wars nor noted to be a veteran of that war nor he took any commanding role in the Greyjoy rebellion. Before Duskendale, beating Robert was all there was in his resume.

2 hours ago, Lady_Qohor said:

Meanwhile there are other instances when one off single combat matches fail to affect the lasting reputations of their combatants. For instance Loras Tyrell beats the Mountain at the Hands Tourney but everyone still views the Mountain as the more fearsome foe. Also Jorah Mormont defeats Jaime Lannister at the Lannisport Tourney yet afterwards Jaime still seems to have a better reputation as a fighter

I don't really know that tourney jousts really count. And Jorah and Jaime matched that day anyway.

[ATaleofSalt&Onions]

7 hours ago, frenin said:

My point is that the only Kingsguard fate the public had a clue of was Dayne's.

Yandel says that Dayne died alongside his brothers. There’s nothing in the books that suggests that their fate or that of Ned’s companions is a big mystery. Dayne gets talked about more than them because he was a legend in his prime and Ned returned the family sword right afterwards.

[Impbread]

On 6/26/2021 at 5:32 AM, Mark O'Kane said:

He beat Arthur Dayne who everyone acknowledges was the best, not to mention Whent and Hightower. No one knows Howland Reed helped him or played  major role. Why the heck does Westeros not hail him as the best now? 

Ps. He should have kept Dawn.....

The kingsguard members were outnumbered more than 2 to 1. Hightower was old and done.

[Impbread]

On 6/26/2021 at 9:35 AM, Mark O'Kane said:

But surely enough people knew that they fought and Ned came out alive while Arthur didn't? Cersei knew and would have heard from either Jaime or Robert and Jaime thought Arthur was a god with a sword.

From what Jaime said and thought about him, Arthur should have beat Ned and his friends by himself.

This is a very good point. Its suprising Jaime doesn't seem to think Ned would be a problem to deal with. Considering people think he slew Arthur 1on1 and Jaime obviously thinks Dayne was the best he had ever seen. 

[Impbread]

On 6/26/2021 at 9:55 AM, Lady_Qohor said:

Even if it is widely known that Ned beat Arthur Dayne, people might have assumed Ned was lucky or that Dayne was having an off day. 

If Luxembourg beats Brazil in a football match, people don't automatically call Luxembourg a great footballing nation. Reputations are based on performances sustained over a long period of time, not one off matches.

I imagine the same principle is true for Westeros knights. 

Not necessarily because Ned doesn't have a reputation good or bad. Luxembourg is a known quantity.Ned never competed in tourneys so no one but maybe Robert and a few others would actually know his competence with a sword 

[Lady_Qohor]

7 hours ago, Impbread said:

Not necessarily because Ned doesn't have a reputation good or bad. Luxembourg is a known quantity.Ned never competed in tourneys so no one but maybe Robert and a few others would actually know his competence with a sword 

I think Ned must be somewhat of a known quantity by this point.

By the time of the Tower of Joy he's been Lord of the North and fighting in Robert's Rebellion for many months. Lots of people would have had the opportunity to see him fight in multiple battle and it does not appear that his performance was the stuff of legends. 

[Impbread]

1 hour ago, Lady_Qohor said:

I think Ned must be somewhat of a known quantity by this point.

By the time of the Tower of Joy he's been Lord of the North and fighting in Robert's Rebellion for many months. Lots of people would have had the opportunity to see him fight in multiple battle and it does not appear that his performance was the stuff of legends. 

This is true but hes a commander. Most commanders do not ride in the van. Ned wasn't a night either so we have no reason to believe he was especially deadly on horse back. Nothing about Neds character points to him being anything more than a prudent leader. Robert and Ned's brother were the type to lead the attack themselves. Ned was never injured which also makes me think he was not in the thick of the fighting. Besides Ned was trying to save his sister. He cant do that if he is dead or seriously injured. Not once in the books is noted as an above average fighter,but he is talked about by Tywin and others as a very formidable leader of men. He marched fast and kept his army in good order. 

[Walda]

On 6/28/2021 at 1:18 PM, Impbread said:

Ned never competed in tourneys

Well, he attended the tourney of Harrenhal. his master-at-arms has tourney blades to hand, his wife had attended half-a-hundred tourneys in her time, and he was the teenage ward of the Lord Protector of the Vale, an area full of knights and lords that are interested in chivalry and tourneys, the best friend of teenage Robert Baratheon who was always interested in the melee, and attended tourneys even if he failed to distinguish himself in them.

It is clear that Eddard objected to the Tourney of the Hand as an unnecessary and unjustifiable expense given the King's debts. Since he returned to Winterfell as its Lord it seems that, like his Northern lieges, he has little to do with chivalry, and has his household and hangers-on train for battle rather than for tourney. There is no sign that Winterfell held tourneys during his Lordship.

But it does not follow that Ned never competed in tourneys, and especially it does not follow that Ned never competed in tourneys in his youth. Being trained in arms in a region where the cult of chivalry was entrenched, with all three of his siblings and his fellow ward all strongly interested in tourneys, it seems unlikely that he could have avoided the experience completely.

[TheLastWolf]

On 6/26/2021 at 3:02 PM, Mark O'Kane said:

He beat Arthur Dayne who everyone acknowledges was the best, not to mention Whent and Hightower. No one knows Howland Reed helped him or played  major role. Why the heck does Westeros not hail him as the best now? 

Ps. He should have kept Dawn.....

Title 

Spoiler

Because he is not 

 

[Thedog]

On 6/27/2021 at 11:30 AM, Bernie Mac said:

It was 7 vs 3. The 3 fought 7 and 2 of the 7 survived. It is not quite the accomplishment, by itself, that would mark Ned as the greatest ever swordsman especially as Ned's prowess in the field, in tourneys or practice would be known to others.

This is the answer. Three Kings Guard faced seven. If one of the 3 survived, that might mark him as a legend. But not the other way around.