The Oldest List

[Impbread]

10 hours ago, LynnS said:

I question whether the Night Watch started out as a military operation with one fort.  It's possible it was a religious brotherhood serving the old gods and it's original purpose was changed along with the oath to reflect Andal beliefs and replace any practices that were of a religion that they were determined to eliminate.  I suspect the story of the Night King reflects that takeover and the Night King was the last priest of the brotherhood but counted among the first Lord Commanders.   I do think he was another Bran and someone with greenseer/3rd eye abilities.

Exactly so.  The tales of the Night King (of Winter?) appear to have some parallels with Bran, Jon and Arya.  The tale of three' prentice boys who dream of someone who appears as someone different to each of them; sounds very much like the god of many faces/faceless man come to test greenseers. They die shortly after perhaps from a fall and a dream of flying.  The fourth goes mad and we have tales of Mad Axe who seems the counterpart to Euron. These sound like sacrifices made to the old gods. 

The parallels between Bran (the one whose name cannot be spoken) and the Night King whose name is erased from history - a name that cannot be spoken, is one similarity.   The Night King knew no fear and and neither does Bran.  Old Nan's stories are meant to instruct Bran on his own recklessness.

 

Bran still has fears when we last saw him. I think he is headed there though. The part where Bloodraven tells him the darkness will be his cloak, his shield, and his mother's milk. He also tells Bran the strongest trees are rooted in the dark and that the darkness will make him strong. That caught my attention because we are told the Night king ruled the night. This seems somewhat of a parallel to Bran. Perhaps the Night king was a seer. Hence why he could control his men and maybe why he is linked to magic. Cold hands calls Bloodraven a wizard. Obviously wizards are synonymous with magic. The Night king didn't fear anything because he was a living god himself who loved the darkness and was sacrificing to the cold gods. The only entity's that could stop him. 

[Impbread]

6 hours ago, Julia H. said:

Thanks, but now I'm wondering what could possibly be the significance of Jon not being LC #998 but (for example) LC #1225. Or is it only another detail to highlight how much the Watch has forgotten? In that case, what's the interrupted sentence for? Sam could just as well have finished it. 

Could be just to show how much has been forgotten.i like that idea. Personally I think Jon is dead but will be brought back from Ghost where he is living his 2nd life. Someone will replace him as lord commander. They will die or be executed for treason.jon will then be the 1000th lord commander. 

[Impbread]

14 hours ago, The_Lone_Wolf said:

Or just simple interrupted sentence

I think this is correct. Ocams razor says the simplest answer is usually the correct answer. Some times there are no hidden meanings. George is great at throwing them in his writing but I don't think this is an example. 

[LynnS]

2 hours ago, Impbread said:

I think this is correct. Ocams razor says the simplest answer is usually the correct answer. Some times there are no hidden meanings. George is great at throwing them in his writing but I don't think this is an example. 

I'm starting to think that the story of the Night King is not as old as we suspect; that the NK is not contemporary with the first long night or the first appearance of the White Walkers.

It seems to me that this is a story about conflict between the old order; serving the old gods as a condition of the Pact; and the new order, that comes when the enemy of the old gods, the Andals, arrives at the gate. 

I'm guessing that the original population of the Watch was confined to one fort. the Night Fort and the population of brothers who served no more than 100 men.  This would be consistent with gift of 100 pieces of obsidian that the COTF give to the Watch.

The largest influx of Andals may coincide with Nymeria sending five kings to the Wall.  One supposes they brought their Knights and the remains of their armies with them.  That would require a building program to house them all and the raising of new forts along the Wall.  It's also possible that each new fort had it's own Lord Commander or King.  I think this is the point in time when the nature and purpose of the Watch changes with the downfall of the Night King.  When the original oath is Andalized. 

The list of LC's may be a compilation of LC's from more than one fort.  So as the strength of the Watch fails and forts are closed, records are moved to a central location.   Some maester tries to make sense of it all and what we have is a headcount rather than a succession.  So why 998 LC's when such a large number of headcount are missing from the written record?  If the assumption is that there has always been a Lord Commander since the beginning; then this could be an attempt to date the Wall.  

[TheLastWolf]

2 hours ago, Impbread said:

I think this is correct. Ocams razor says the simplest answer is usually the correct answer. Some times there are no hidden meanings. George is great at throwing them in his writing but I don't think this is an example. 

Murphys Law too 

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, The_Lone_Wolf said:

Murphys Law too 

And the Law of Unintended Consequence.

[Free Northman Reborn]

“…which suggests it was written during the Andal Conquest.” 

[Impbread]

4 hours ago, LynnS said:

I'm starting to think that the story of the Night King is not as old as we suspect; that the NK is not contemporary with the first long night or the first appearance of the White Walkers.

It seems to me that this is a story about conflict between the old order; serving the old gods as a condition of the Pact; and the new order, that comes when the enemy of the old gods, the Andals, arrives at the gate. 

I'm guessing that the original population of the Watch was confined to one fort. the Night Fort and the population of brothers who served no more than 100 men.  This would be consistent with gift of 100 pieces of obsidian that the COTF give to the Watch.

The largest influx of Andals may coincide with Nymeria sending five kings to the Wall.  One supposes they brought their Knights and the remains of their armies with them.  That would require a building program to house them all and the raising of new forts along the Wall.  It's also possible that each new fort had it's own Lord Commander or King.  I think this is the point in time when the nature and purpose of the Watch changes with the downfall of the Night King.  When the original oath is Andalized. 

The list of LC's may be a compilation of LC's from more than one fort.  So as the strength of the Watch fails and forts are closed, records are moved to a central location.   Some maester tries to make sense of it all and what we have is a headcount rather than a succession.  So why 998 LC's when such a large number of headcount are missing from the written record?  If the assumption is that there has always been a Lord Commander since the beginning; then this could be an attempt to date the Wall.  

I like your idea that the lord commander was praying to ancient gods perhaps the cold gods like Craster. I completely agree that this lord commander was not around during the first long night. Geor? Mormont was aware of what Craster was up to which tells me he has heard of the cold gods before. Perhaps he knew more about the lord commander that was sacrificing to the others. 

[LynnS]

4 hours ago, Impbread said:

I like your idea that the lord commander was praying to ancient gods perhaps the cold gods like Craster. I completely agree that this lord commander was not around during the first long night. Geor? Mormont was aware of what Craster was up to which tells me he has heard of the cold gods before. Perhaps he knew more about the lord commander that was sacrificing to the others. 

If the Night King was a Stark with a 3rd eye and the original brotherhood served the old gods; it could explain a lot.  The Andals would be inimical to the old gods; so they wouldn't be too thrilled with either the Watch or the Wildlings.  The notion that the Wildlings won't kneel to any king, could come from the time when kings were sent to the Wall and acted like kings.  Demanding allegiance from the Wildlings, just as we see Stannis doing right now.  I don't think there were difficulties between the Watch and the Wildlings until after the Andals arrived.

So I can see the brothers of the Night Fort rebelling against the Andal kings over religious differences or an attempt to convert them to the Faith.  Stories of the NK may carry some truths about the nature or powers of the NK but written by the Andals with  a bit of revisionist history that makes him into a monster.  

- The NK sees a (wildling) woman from the Wall, loves her, chases her, catches her and then he gives her his seed.  This is very much what passes for the wildling courting tradition.  How does he espy her from the Wall?  That wouldn't be difficult to do if the NK was a warg or skin changer.  Orel's eagle comes to mind.  She becomes his 'Queen'.  We know there are no kings or queens beyond the Wall but this is how the Andals would style them.  Stannis does exactly the same thing with Mance and Val.

- She is also vilified for her association with the NK and called the Corpse Queen for other reasons. Giving her his seed could be something similar to Craster making himself 'right' with the gods.  But I think originally this has more to do with providing human greenseers than making White Walkers. 

- The thing that comes in the night to the 'prentice boys' could be the NK entering the boys dreams to test them as Bran is tested.  He doesn't have a face any of them recognize and each sees a different face (the god of many faces).  Three of the boys die and one goes mad.  The three boys may not have survived the 'falling/flying' test.  While the fourth lives to become Mad Axe.

- Sacrificing to the old gods may be true.  We have the weirwood grove of nine trees where Jon and Sam take their oaths.  This is an old place and holy ground.

- The story of binding his brothers to his will might involve making the nine into WWs to combat the Andals on the Wall since the Night Fort is so outnumbered.  The binding accomplished with a binding horn that raises the dead (wakes giants in the earth) and  binds their will to the one who sounds the horn (of winter) belonging to the Night King (of winter).  This is likely the small horn in Sam's possession.  An object that later comes into Joramund's possession.  Jon wonders about waking giants in the earth and whether sounding the horn will put them back to sleep.  Unless Sam repairs the horn it can't be winded.  Breaking the horn may have released the WWs from their bond but it didn't put them back to sleep.  The law of unintended consequences.  The WW's are now swords without hilts and likely to return when conditions are right during the winters or long nights in the North.  The Watch retains the protocol of three horn blasts for WW's.

- So the NK may have raised his own army of the dead with the consequence that all living people were now threatened.  Ultimately the King in the North and the King (Magnar) Beyond the Wall have to join forces to defeat the Night King.

The oath of the NW is changed so there will be no conflicts between kings on the Wall for supremacy, no chance of siring offspring for the old gods and no competition for land or honors.  The wildlings become the enemy of the Watch something to be contained, while the purpose of the Watch is largely forgotten.  All memory of the original brotherhood buried and forgotten.

  

[Impbread]

5 minutes ago, LynnS said:

If the Night King was a Stark with a 3rd eye and the original brotherhood served the old gods; it could explain a lot.  The Andals would be inimical to the old gods; so they wouldn't be too thrilled with either the Watch or the Wildlings.  The notion that the Wildlings won't kneel to any king could come from the time when kings were went to the Wall and acted like kings.  Demanding allegiance from the Wildlings, just as we see Stannis doing right now.  I don't think there were difficulties between the Watch and the Wildlings until after the Andals arrived.

So I can see the brothers of the Night Fort rebelling against the Andal kings over religious differences or an attempt to convert them to the Faith.  Stories of the NK may carry some truths about the nature or powers of the NK but written by the Andals with  a bit of revisionist history that makes him into a monster.  

- The NK sees a (wildling) woman from the Wall, loves her, chases her, catches her and then he gives her his seed.  This is very much what passes for the wildling courting tradition.  How does he espy her from the Wall?  That wouldn't be difficult to do if the NK was a warg or skin changer.  Orel's eagle comes to mind.  She becomes his 'Queen'.  We know there are no kings or queens beyond the Wall but this is how the Andals would style them.  Stannis does exactly the same thing with Mance and Val.

- She is also vilified for her association with the NK and called the Corpse Queen for other reasons. Giving her his seed could be something similar to Craster making himself 'right' with the gods.  But I think originally this has more to do with providing human greenseers than making White Walkers. 

- The thing that comes in the night to the 'prentice boys' could be the NK entering the boys dreams to test them as Bran is tested.  He doesn't have a face any of them recognize and each sees a different face (the god of many faces).  Three of the boys die and one goes mad.  The three boys may not have survived the 'falling/flying' test.  While the fourth lives to become Mad Axe.

- Sacrificing to the old gods may be true.  We have the weirwood grove of nine trees where Jon and Sam take their oaths.  This is an old place and holy ground.

- The story of binding his brothers to his will might involve making the nine into WWs to combat the Andals on the Wall since the Night Fort is so outnumbered.  The binding accomplished with a binding horn that raises the dead (wakes giants in the earth) and  binds their will to the one who sounds the horn (of winter) belonging to the Night King (of winter).  This is likely the small horn in Sam's possession.  An object that later comes into Joramund's possession.  Jon wonders about waking giants in the earth and whether sounding the horn will put them back to sleep.  Unless Sam repairs the horn it can't be winded.  Breaking the horn may have released the WWs from their bond but it didn't put them back to sleep.  The law of unintended consequences.  The WW's are now swords without hilts and likely to return when conditions are right during the winters or long nights in the North.  The Watch retains the protocol of three horn blasts for WW's.

- So the NK may have raised his own army of the dead with the consequence that all living people were now threatened.  Ultimately the King in the North and the King (Magnar) Beyond the Wall have to join forces to defeat the Night King.

The oath of the NW is changed so there will be no conflicts between kings on the Wall for supremacy, no chance of siring offspring for the old gods and no competition for land or honors.  The wildlings become the enemy of the Watch something to be contained, while the purpose of the Watch is largely forgotten.  All memory of the original brotherhood buried and forgotten.

  

I agree I don't think the watch had problems with wildlings until after the andals arrived. The north men who compromised the watch were are shockingly similar just on different sides of the wall. I also like your thought about the NK spying his love via skin change. I believe there is some truth to the story but it was muddled up with andal disgust for the old gods and magic and wildlings. I suspect the bride was just a female wildling that sacrificed her children to the cold gods. Tin foil...the NK was doing this to protect the watch from the others. They leave those who sacrifice to them. So perhaps the NK thought he was doing right by the watch and wasn't doing it for a woman or personal gain  

[LynnS]

21 hours ago, Seams said:

In Jon's scene at the Fist, he leaves Mormont, touches base with Grenn and his other pals, and then slips out with Ghost to find the obsidian cache. I suspect a close reading of this scene would closely parallel the rewinding of a watch (an accessory worn around the base of a fist, just as Jon and Ghost walk around the base of the Fist) or perhaps the resetting of a watch

The resetting of the Night Watch is in an interesting idea.  It's not long afterwards that Jon encounters tree-Bran who seems to be out of phase with time.

In terms of wells, I think you can include pools of water like the pool at the base of the weirwood in Winterfell.  

Quote

 

A Game of Thrones - Bran III

He saw Winterfell as the eagles see it, the tall towers looking squat and stubby from above, the castle walls just lines in the dirt. He saw Maester Luwin on his balcony, studying the sky through a polished bronze tube and frowning as he made notes in a book. He saw his brother Robb, taller and stronger than he remembered him, practicing swordplay in the yard with real steel in his hand. He saw Hodor, the simple giant from the stables, carrying an anvil to Mikken's forge, hefting it onto his shoulder as easily as another man might heft a bale of hay. At the heart of the godswood, the great white weirwood brooded over its reflection in the black pool, its leaves rustling in a chill wind. When it felt Bran watching, it lifted its eyes from the still waters and stared back at him knowingly.

 

The leaves of the weirwood are stirring but the water of the pool is still.   That implies that time is frozen or standing still.

This post from Tucu is interesting:

Heresy 236 and the Musgrave Ritual - Page 6 - A Dance with Dragons - A Forum of Ice and Fire - A Song of Ice and Fire & Game of Thrones (westeros.org)

[ATaleofSalt&Onions]

9 hours ago, LynnS said:

I'm starting to think that the story of the Night King is not as old as we suspect; that the NK is not contemporary with the first long night or the first appearance of the White Walkers.

Doesn't that seem pretty clear based on what we are told? The Night's Watch was founded at the end of the Long Night, based on what we're told. The NK supposedly was the 13th Lord Commander, so it seems fairly obvious that he's not supposed to be contemporaneous with the Long Night or the first appearance of the Others.

[LynnS]

27 minutes ago, ATaleofSalt&Onions said:

Doesn't that seem pretty clear based on what we are told? The Night's Watch was founded at the end of the Long Night, based on what we're told. The NK supposedly was the 13th Lord Commander, so it seems fairly obvious that he's not supposed to be contemporaneous with the Long Night or the first appearance of the Others.

You think I'm stating the obvious. Thanks for clearing that up for everyone.

[ATaleofSalt&Onions]

20 minutes ago, LynnS said:

You think I'm stating the obvious. Thanks for clearing that up for everyone.

I honestly didn't intend for my post to come off as snarky if that's how you read it, I just wasn't sure what you were basing the "not as old as we suspect" thing off of as I haven't found the idea that the Night's King was around at the start of the Long Night to be a common notion in the fandom given his status as the 13th LC and the origin story of the Night's Watch.

[Moiraine Sedai]

Either recorded history was purposely revised to make a certain house look better or it's a problem with translation.  

[Mourning Star]

21 hours ago, Julia H. said:

Whatever Sam was going to say must be important, in my opinion. Interrupted sentences seem to be like huge flags signalling that there is something important hidden there if anyone wants to start digging. 

This! I would argue that when characters are interrupted like this in explanation it's always important.

21 hours ago, Julia H. said:

One thing that bothers me is Sam's use of the word but:

we say that you're the nine hundred and ninety-eighth Lord Commander of the Night's Watch, but the oldest list I've found shows six hundred seventy-four commanders, which suggests that it was written during . . ."

If he wanted to say simply that the present LC is the 998th one, and the oldest list contains 674 names, so the oldest list was written at whatever time period the difference in numbers suggests, why would he use but as a conjunction? There is no contradiction in this train of thought. Could it be that he wants to say the list should have been written 324 LC's ago but in fact the document has a date and it clearly cannot be 324 LC's ago, so the numbers do not match? That would explain the use of but. He also says which suggests... instead of which means, and it may also indicate that there is a difference between what is suggested and the date that is actually known.

I have similarly struggled to interpret what Sam was trying to say, because I agree completely, there has to be a reason why he says "but", and why this passage was included in the first place. And doubhly so since it was included twice, once in Feast and once in Dance. If I'm being honest I think there is an enormous amount here to unpack... but most notably...

In Jon's PoV from Dance, this line (seemingly Jon's own words) is missing from the paragraph before:

Quote

"The younger four all being sons, brothers, or bastards of the King in the North. Tell me something useful. Tell me of our enemy."

I wonder how many of them were named Brandon Stark?

I wonder if any names were wiped from the records besides the Night King?

Quote

As the sun began to set the shadows of the towers lengthened and the wind blew harder, sending gusts of dry dead leaves rattling through the yards. The gathering gloom put Bran in mind of another of Old Nan's stories, the tale of Night's King. He had been the thirteenth man to lead the Night's Watch, she said; a warrior who knew no fear. "And that was the fault in him," she would add, "for all men must know fear." A woman was his downfall; a woman glimpsed from atop the Wall, with skin as white as the moon and eyes like blue stars. Fearing nothing, he chased her and caught her and loved her, though her skin was cold as ice, and when he gave his seed to her he gave his soul as well.
He brought her back to the Nightfort and proclaimed her a queen and himself her king, and with strange sorceries he bound his Sworn Brothers to his will. For thirteen years they had ruled, Night's King and his corpse queen, till finally the Stark of Winterfell and Joramun of the wildlings had joined to free the Watch from bondage. After his fall, when it was found he had been sacrificing to the Others, all records of Night's King had been destroyed, his very name forbidden.
"Some say he was a Bolton," Old Nan would always end. "Some say a Magnar out of Skagos, some say Umber, Flint, or Norrey. Some would have you think he was a Woodfoot, from them who ruled Bear Island before the ironmen came. He never was. He was a Stark, the brother of the man who brought him down." She always pinched Bran on the nose then, he would never forget it. "He was a Stark of Winterfell, and who can say? Mayhaps his name was Brandon. Mayhaps he slept in this very bed in this very room."

A Storm of Swords - Bran IV

 

[Mourning Star]

12 hours ago, Impbread said:

I think this is correct. Ocams razor says the simplest answer is usually the correct answer. Some times there are no hidden meanings. George is great at throwing them in his writing but I don't think this is an example. 

Occams Razor does not apply to fiction, let alone fantasy.

Even if it did, the simplest conclusion here is that the author repeated the discrepancy, and Sam getting cut off, twice, for a reason.

The question is why.

[Mourning Star]

3 hours ago, ATaleofSalt&Onions said:

Doesn't that seem pretty clear based on what we are told? The Night's Watch was founded at the end of the Long Night, based on what we're told. The NK supposedly was the 13th Lord Commander, so it seems fairly obvious that he's not supposed to be contemporaneous with the Long Night or the first appearance of the Others.

Counterpoint... I do not think this is clear at all.

He had been the thirteenth man to lead the Night's Watch, she said

First, is leading the Night's Watch the same as being Lord Commander?

Second, the fact that the Last Hero had twelve companions makes it seem plausible that the Night's King was the Last Hero, the twelve men said to lead the watch before him being his twelve companions. Especially since we are given the name of neither, only titles, and are told the Night's King's name was forbidden.

Third, there doesn't seem to be a second Long Night, but the Night's King sacrificed to the Others and was said to rule for thirteen years (a generation, like the Long Night), and the night was his to rule.

Finally, Joramun of the Wildlings, who blew the horn of winter and woke giants from the earth, was said to have made common cause with the Stark of Winterfell to cast the Night's King down. Since giants are said to have participated in the construction of both the Wall and Winterfell it's possible to interpret this as having been Brandon the Builder. The Nightfort seems to predate the Wall, being the only castle with the steps cut out of the ice.

"He was a Stark, the brother of the man who brought him down." She always pinched Bran on the nose then, he would never forget it.

The records were erased... and there was no writing then, only runes, so what records do we mean? 

Quote

"A reader lives a thousand lives before he dies," said Jojen. "The man who never reads lives only one. The singers of the forest had no books. No ink, no parchment, no written language. Instead they had the trees, and the weirwoods above all. When they died, they went into the wood, into leaf and limb and root, and the trees remembered. All their songs and spells, their histories and prayers, everything they knew about this world. Maesters will tell you that the weirwoods are sacred to the old gods. The singers believe they are the old gods. When singers die they become part of that godhood."

A Dance with Dragons - Bran III

One has to imagine that Bran will learn the answers eventually (you know, if there ever are more books...)!

[ATaleofSalt&Onions]

6 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

First, is leading the Night's Watch the same as being Lord Commander?

Second, the fact that the Last Hero had twelve companions makes it seem plausible that the Night's King was the Last Hero, the twelve men said to lead the watch before him being his twelve companions. Especially since we are given the name of neither, only titles, and are told the Night's King's name was forbidden.

Third, there doesn't seem to be a second Long Night, but the Night's King sacrificed to the Others and was said to rule for thirteen years (a generation, like the Long Night), and the night was his to rule.

Finally, Joramun of the Wildlings, who blew the horn of winter and woke giants from the earth, was said to have made common cause with the Stark of Winterfell to cast the Night's King down. Since giants are said to have participated in the construction of both the Wall and Winterfell it's possible to interpret this as having been Brandon the Builder.

This is pretty thin speculation. I made it clear that my conclusion was based on what we are told in the books, and the info we're told about him does not indicate that he's believed to have been around during the Long Night or before the Others showed up. If you make assumptions about how that info is false in specific ways it's hypothetically possible that he could have been, but that's not the narrative presented to us and not what I think most fans assume, which is the context in which my response was made.

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, ATaleofSalt&Onions said:

I honestly didn't intend for my post to come off as snarky if that's how you read it, I just wasn't sure what you were basing the "not as old as we suspect" thing off of as I haven't found the idea that the Night's King was around at the start of the Long Night to be a common notion in the fandom given his status as the 13th LC and the origin story of the Night's Watch.

There has been discussion about the Wall, The NW and the NK for as long as I can remember.  In particular, how old was the Wall, why was there a discrepancy in the LC list.  What was the story of the NK all about and when did it occur.  Discussion about the Wall doesn't come up on the general forum very often, but we've discussed it on Heresy a number of times without a resolution.