The Oldest List

[Impbread]

13 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

Exactly!

It's no mistake at all that we haven't gotten the name of the first lord commander, all we get are titles.

 After his fall, when it was found he had been sacrificing to the Others, all records of Night's King had been destroyed, his very name forbidden.

Like Jon's parentage couldn't be important because Ned doesn't think about it on the page?

I feel like this sort of thinking is ignoring that this is a story intentionally written in a way to keep things a secret from readers, and the mystery is part of what makes it work.

I'm not sure what huge game changing story you are talking about though... I suggested Sam was cut off (by the author) to allude to, but not explicitly give, a clue to the reader. No reason to believe Sam has put everything together or found some complete explanation of ancient Westerosi history lol. He's confused and has other priorities, although I will say I think part of why Aemon had to go south with Sam was because the author decided he knew too much to keep hanging around Castle Black.

The passage in question is repeated almost word for word in two different PoVs in two different books, I don't know how much more banging can be done, when this is literally the only passage that can be said for in the whole series.

Anyway, just my thoughts, hopefully one day we get answers.

 

Ned does think about Jon's parents all the time. Every time he heard Lyanna screaming promise me Ned! He also asks himself if Rhaegar was ever the type of man to visit brothels when went with Littlefinger. He didn't think so. Ned doesn't have any contempt for the man who supposedly kidnapped and raped his sister who was promised to his bed byd Bobby B. If Rhaegar did kidnap her he was single handedly responsible for the rebellion occurring. Ned never thinks or says a bad word about Rhaegar. That's because Ned knew Lyanna loved him to and they ran away together to follow their hearts and escape their families. Even if you don't think Rhaegar is Jon's father you know Lyanna is his mother and shes making Ned promise to raise his as his own and keep him safe. Ned also decided that next time that he speaks to Jon hes going to tell him about his mother. 

      Aemon left at Jon's command because he sees Stannis Rhollor zealot now and they he keeps hearing all the red god worshipers talking about the importance of Kings blood. They truly believe those burned leetches did something. Aemon having kings blood means he can't stay when the Watch is outnumbered by Stannis and his fanatics. His life would be in danger.Did Mances baby.know to much also? Because he left with them.

 

I was.joking when I asked if Monster knew too much. I guess my question is what kind of clue? Whst would it pertain to? Are you thinking the real age of the watch or that it might allude to why numbers on paper from the 998 lord commanders Sam thinks there are?

[Mourning Star]

1 hour ago, Impbread said:

Ned does think about Jon's parents all the time. Every time he heard Lyanna screaming promise me Ned! He also asks himself if Rhaegar was ever the type of man to visit brothels when went with Littlefinger. He didn't think so. Ned doesn't have any contempt for the man who supposedly kidnapped and raped his sister who was promised to his bed byd Bobby B. If Rhaegar did kidnap her he was single handedly responsible for the rebellion occurring. Ned never thinks or says a bad word about Rhaegar. That's because Ned knew Lyanna loved him to and they ran away together to follow their hearts and escape their families. Even if you don't think Rhaegar is Jon's father you know Lyanna is his mother and shes making Ned promise to raise his as his own and keep him safe. Ned also decided that next time that he speaks to Jon hes going to tell him about his mother. 

What is happening here... I was trying to say that the story is written to allude to things without being explicit, which is exactly what you are describing with Ned and Jon's parentage. I feel like you are making my point. Ned giving hints in his thoughts but not spelling it out is why the mystery/story works.

Quote

      Aemon left at Jon's command because he sees Stannis Rhollor zealot now and they he keeps hearing all the red god worshipers talking about the importance of Kings blood. They truly believe those burned leetches did something. Aemon having kings blood means he can't stay when the Watch is outnumbered by Stannis and his fanatics. His life would be in danger.Did Mances baby.know to much also? Because he left with them.

Ok again I feel like you are conflating a discussion about story structure with the plot.

There are plot reasons Aemon was sent south, namely Jon is concerned Mel will try to sacrifice Aemon for his King's blood.

Then there is the story telling reasons for having Aemon die in transit in the south rather than just killing him off at the wall. As in why the author chose to tell the story that way.

These two aren't the same.

Although, side note, I suspect there is fantastic convergence of plot and story purpose, for ironies sake, if Craster was Aemon's bastard son, since the baby swap actually left "king's blood" (Targaryen blood) in the form of Gilley's baby who is being passed off as Mance's. Jon accomplishing the opposite of what he had hoped with the baby swap.

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I was.joking when I asked if Monster knew too much. I guess my question is what kind of clue? Whst would it pertain to? Are you thinking the real age of the watch or that it might allude to why numbers on paper from the 998 lord commanders Sam thinks there are?

The histories as presented are not reliable, something we have seen and been told repeatedly, this passage indicates it includes the origins of the Watch.

 

[ATaleofSalt&Onions]

6 hours ago, Impbread said:

He could easily been a contemporary of the firs lord commander. The 13th could have been a child when the first was named. He could be living an extended life green seer kings referenced in stories such as the tale of how Naggas hall came to be. I believe some of the kings during the age of heroes were alleged to have lived 100 years plus plus we see Bloodraven so we know for a fact someone could rule for 100 years from their  weirwood thrones. Back to the point. If there are almost a thousand lord commanders and let's say the watch existed for 8 thousand. That's only 8 years per commander. Mormont and the previous litd commander served much longer than 8 years each. There is no reason to think the 13th couldn't have been the youngest of the 12 heroes and azor. The other heroes could have lived very short lives from old age battles with the others or illness.

 

I think "easily" is being a bit generous. Even with a tenure of just 4 years per commander, he'd be well into his 60s when he took over assuming he was at least a teenager when it was founded. And that's still not the same as being around before or during the first appearance of the Others (which is what I actually said in that post), which would be (at the latest) the onset of the Long Night rather than its end. Assuming the LN lasted at least around 15 years (seems to make sense with it being described as a generational thing), he'd be in his late 70s at a minimum. You can come up with all sort of speculation about how he could have done X or aged more slowly, etc., my point is just that the text never suggests that he was around before the Others showed up for the first time.

[Julia H.]

On 6/28/2021 at 7:05 AM, Impbread said:

I think he was just going to state a time period. Jon knows this that is why he cut him off and said what Sam was going to say. If it were that important Sam would have informed someone. Every other significant find he alerts someone. Like the lethality of the dragon glass against others. 

Sam does not necessarily think it is very important or at the moment useful, but it still might be. He did take the time to try to mention it though. It is perhaps less likely that he just wanted to tell Jon when a certain historical document had been written just as a fun fact, than that he thought the date signified something (like the number of LC's not being consistent with the information in the document) that related to the present situation or Jon, personally, at least a little bit. However, my main argument was the use of but as a conjunction, which normally introduces something in contrast with something else, and a writer knows that quite well. In addition, before the sentence in question, Sam mentions tales, which introduces the idea of doubt (which may be on his mind), and then he says: "we say that you're the nine hundred and ninety-eighth Lord Commander of the Night's Watch, but" 

Why is this sentence introduced by "we say" when Sam could just state the number as a fact if he is not going to cast doubt on it and why is he using but if he is just going to state a logical conclusion? 

On 6/28/2021 at 1:45 AM, Seams said:

It's also interesting that Jon is specifically requesting information about The Others and Sam turns the subject back to the history of the Night's Watch and the number of Lord Commanders. Are the two histories intertwined?

Probably. I don't think Sam is just trying to tell random stories, there must be some connection between what he is trying to say and what Jon is asking. However, he realizes that at the moment Jon wants some very specific piece of information, something that could be translated into practical knowledge right away, whereas Sam has probably found information that needs to be interpreted through research and analysis to make sense. 

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The oath says that the sworn brothers will father no sons but many of them travel to Mole's Town for sex with prostitutes. Maybe there is a Craster-like "underground" pipeline of Night's Watch babies going from Mole's Town beyond the Wall to the Others.

 

 

[Julia H.]

On 6/28/2021 at 7:57 AM, Impbread said:

Could be just to show how much has been forgotten.i like that idea. Personally I think Jon is dead but will be brought back from Ghost where he is living his 2nd life. Someone will replace him as lord commander. They will die or be executed for treason.jon will then be the 1000th lord commander. 

I've heard this theory before, and it's quite probable. 1000 is a nice round number, I know (though I'm not sure what further significance this number has in relation to Lord Commanders). However, what I was wondering is what could be the significance of Sam finding out that the commonly known tally of Lord Commanders does not match the information found in the available historical records. The only answer I can give to my own question is that it would be just the introduction to a longer story regarding the Night's Watch and (given the topic of Jon's questions to Sam) the Others. 

 

23 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

I would argue that when characters are interrupted like this in explanation it's always important.

 

Yes, and perhaps especially so in stories where a mystery needs to be cleared up, and the history of the Others / Long Night is a a sort of mystery in present-day Westeros. It is repeatedly emphasized that "remembering" is important, that essential knowledge has been lost or only partially preserved. An interrupted sentence is a device a writer can use to point towards a bit of information without actually revealing it, so the reader knows there is something Sam knows that he has not had the chance to say on page.  

[Mourning Star]

13 minutes ago, Julia H. said:

Yes, I've heard this theory before, and it's quite probable. 1000 is a nice round number, I know (though I'm not sure what further significance this number has in relation to Lord Commanders). However, what I was wondering is what could be the significance of Sam finding out that the commonly known tally of Lord Commanders does not match the information found in the available historical records. The only answer I can give to my own question is that it would be just the introduction to a longer story regarding the Night's Watch and (given the topic of Jon's questions to Sam) the Others. 

Hard to know, but there might be something odd going on with the 1000 number... or maybe it's just a nice big number...

It was cool and dim beneath the silk. As she let the door flap close behind her, Dany saw a finger of dusty red light reach out to touch her dragon's eggs across the tent. For an instant a thousand droplets of scarlet flame swam before her eyes. She blinked, and they were gone.

...

A face took shape within the hearth. Stannis? she thought, for just a moment … but no, these were not his features. A wooden face, corpse white. Was this the enemy? A thousand red eyes floated in the rising flames. He sees me. Beside him, a boy with a wolf's face threw back his head and howled.

...

"What do you see, my lady?" the boy asked, softly.
Skulls. A thousand skulls, and the bastard boy again. Jon Snow.

...

The knight nodded. "The red temple buys them as children and makes them priests or temple prostitutes or warriors. Look there." He pointed at the steps, where a line of men in ornate armor and orange cloaks stood before the temple's doors, clasping spears with points like writhing flames. "The Fiery Hand. The Lord of Light's sacred soldiers, defenders of the temple."
Fire knights. "And how many fingers does this hand have, pray?"
"One thousand. Never more, and never less. A new flame is kindled for every one that gutters out."
Benerro jabbed a finger at the moon, made a fist, spread his hands wide. When his voice rose in a crescendo, flames leapt from his fingers with a sudden whoosh and made the crowd gasp. The priest could trace fiery letters in the air as well. Valyrian glyphs. Tyrion recognized perhaps two in ten; one was Doom, the other Darkness.

...

"Let me tell you what will happen," Jon said. "The dead will rise again, in their hundreds and their thousands. They will rise as wights, with black hands and pale blue eyes, and they will come for us."

13 minutes ago, Julia H. said:

Perhaps especially so in stories where a mystery needs to be cleared up, and the history of the Others / Long Night is a a sort of mystery in present-day Westeros. It is repeatedly emphasized that "remembering" is important, that essential knowledge has been lost or only partially preserved. An interrupted sentence is a device a writer can use to point towards a bit of information without actually revealing it, so the reader knows there is something Sam knows that he has not had the chance to say on page.  

Just so!

[Megorova]

20 hours ago, Groo said:

GRRM is good about the fact that the first of anything naturally gets referenced by people all the time. Bran the Builder gets mentioned by characters in the North regularly. Characters in the Vale mention the Falcon Knight. Everybody mentions Aegon the Conqueror. The list goes on. But not one mention of the first Lord Commander of the Night's Watch? Not even by any of the characters in the Night's Watch? GRRM has done such a masterful job writing this story that it seems a little hard to believe that he's resorted to just blatantly withholding the name from readers.

Really?

Then - Who was the leader of the First Men that migrated from Essos to Westeros? The leader of the first Andals was Hugor of the Hill. So by your logic, if we know who was the first leader of Andals, then we should also know who was the leader of the First Men, and also everyone else who was the first in anything. But that isn't how GRRM wrote his books.

What was the name of the first Dothraki? This one - >

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Womb_of_the_World

"According to Dothraki legends, the first man emerged from the depths of the Womb of the World, riding on the back of the first horse a thousand thousand years ago.^[2]"

What was that first horse's name?

What was the name of the founder of House Dayne, who also was the first ever  Sword of the Morning? Who was the first High Septon of the Citadel? Who founded Citadel? What was the name of the first head of House Targaryen? What was the name of the first dragon that was tamed and used as a mount by Valyrians? Who was the first ever skinchanger?

So as you can see on those examples (and I can continue the list) "the first of anything" not always gets referenced by people all the time.In my opinion, GRRM did intentionally withheld from the readers who was the first Lord Commander of Night's Watch, because he isn't ready yet to reveal to readers what were the conditions of the Pact made between the Children and the Last Hero, Bran the Builder, who build The Wall, Winterfell and created Night's Watch. I think that whoever became the first Lord Commander of NW was the part of the Pact. There is a possibility that the Children agreed to help the Last Hero/Bran, though in exchange requested him to become the first LC, because it is somehow connected to his blood. It's likely that their Pact was made on blood, so the blood of the Starks is the part of that magic that holds back the Others and fortifies The Wall. Could be that after Bran build Winterfell, he passed the castle to his son and then went to The Wall and became the first LC, similar to Jorah Mormont's father. Though GRRM won't reveal this information until much later, because this information is connected to the nature of the Others.

[Groo]

1 hour ago, Megorova said:

What was the name of the founder of House Dayne, who also was the first ever  Sword of the Morning? Who was the first High Septon of the Citadel? Who founded Citadel? What was the name of the first head of House Targaryen? What was the name of the first dragon that was tamed and used as a mount by Valyrians? Who was the first ever skinchanger?

I should have been more precise. When I wrote the "first of anything" I really meant founder. Some of your examples aren't relevant in that sense (e.g. the first skinchanger) but you do make some fair points. The first Sword of the Morning and the first High Septon are definitely good counterexamples. The Citadel might very well have been a founded by a group of people so that might not be a counterexample. In my defense, some of this is regional. The people of the North talk a lot about Bran the Builder but characters outside the North don't seem to bring him up. Same with the Falcon Knight and the Vale. That probably applies to the first Sword of the Morning. That doesn't save me from the first High Septon counterexample though.

[Megorova]

15 minutes ago, Groo said:

The people of the North talk a lot about Bran the Builder but characters outside the North don't seem to bring him up.

Though it was mentioned by GRRM (probably in the World Book) that Bran the Builder gave recommendations to the Storm King how to build Storm's End, and also he build stone tower for the founder or son of the founder of House Hightower - Uthor of the High Tower. This guy - Uthor - married with Bran's aunt Maris the Maid. So the characters even outside of The North know about Bran the Builder. But they don't mention him because why would they? he's long dead, and thus what he did and where he was, and who he was (whether he was the first LC of Night's Watch) is irrelevant. For now. Though later, when the Others will appear on this side of The Wall, I think that then the characters all over Westeros will be talking about Bran and the Pact, and that's when GRRM will probably thru them will reveal that Bran the Builder (or maybe his brother, or one of his sons) was the founder of Night's Watch, and because he was the founder, he was chosen by the other Watchers as their Commander.

Just because it was never mentioned by anyone in the books who the first LC was it (in my opinion) doesn't mean that the characters doesn't know who that guy was. Maybe GRRM planned to make that reveal thru Old Nan, and because since the fall of Winterfell Nan was separated from Bran and Co, the reveal was postponed until their reunion. Or maybe Bloodraven will reveal to Bran who NW's founder was. 

Similar thing - who is older - Jon or Robb? I think that the characters know the answer, though they never mention it, because this reveal is a huge spoiler (for the readers). Because if Jon is older then, based on what we as the readers know about the events that were occuring during Robert's Rebellion and what the characters in the books are unaware of, Jon can't be Ned's son, and thus if GRRM will write in the books that Jon is older, then it will be the same as admitting that Jon is Lyanna's and Rhaegar's child and not Ned's bastard.

So even though GRRM wrote 5 books, he still holds back a lot of information. Thus, what I originally wrote in this thread concerning the possibility of Bran the Builder being the first LC is a viable possibility. 

[Seams]

On 6/28/2021 at 4:12 PM, Mourning Star said:

Night's King was only a man by light of day, Old Nan would always say, but the night was his to rule.

What if this doesn't refer to the Long Night but instead refers to every night? Maybe the story of the Night's King is all metaphorical and we can crack it if we try to figure out who is the Day's King to go with the Night's King. 

I'm still ruminating on the idea of a Night's "watch" that keeps track of time. 

What if the Day's King rules from noon to midnight? (Or it could be 6 a.m. to 6 p.m. but let's say it's normally 12 hours or half a day.) If the Last Hero is the Day's King, this could explain why his twelve companions perish - they are the twelve hours of his reign. 

The Night's King is the 13th Lord Commander because twelve "hours" passed before his reign began. He begins his reign in the 13th Hour. 

The love affair with the corpse queen is also metaphorical:

Quote

A woman was his downfall; a woman glimpsed from atop the Wall, with skin as white as the moon and eyes like blue stars. Fearing nothing, he chased her and caught her and loved her, though her skin was cold as ice, and when he gave his seed to her he gave his soul as well.

He brought her back to the Nightfort and proclaimed her a queen and himself her king, and with strange sorceries he bound his Sworn Brothers to his will. For thirteen years they had ruled, Night's King and his corpse queen, till finally the Stark of Winterfell and Joramun of the wildlings had joined to free the Watch from bondage. (Storm, Bran IV)

If the Night's King is literally nighttime, he doesn't need binoculars to glimpse his mate from the top of the Wall - she may be in the sky and the Wall is closer to her than the ground would be. In the story, she has skin as white as the moon and eyes like stars: what if she really IS the moon and stars? Sounds like a good lover for a man who embodies night. 

(If the Night's King was a greenseer, he could see "well beyond the trees" as Bloodraven tells Bran in the next excerpt.) 

The king and queen rule for thirteen years but remember what Bloodraven tells Bran about time:

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"Once you have mastered your gifts, you may look where you will and see what the trees have seen, be it yesterday or last year or a thousand ages past. Men live their lives trapped in an eternal present, between the mists of memory and the sea of shadow that is all we know of the days to come. Certain moths live their whole lives in a day, yet to them that little span of time must seem as long as years and decades do to us. An oak may live three hundred years, a redwood tree three thousand. A weirwood will live forever if left undisturbed. To them seasons pass in the flutter of a moth's wing, and past, present, and future are one. Nor will your sight be limited to your godswood. The singers carved eyes into their heart trees to awaken them, and those are the first eyes a new greenseer learns to use … but in time you will see well beyond the trees themselves." (Dance, Bran III)

Leaf and Maester Luwin have also told Bran about the relative length of time in the "life" of a mountain or of an individual such as a giant or one of the children of the forest. Maybe thirteen years in the Night's King story is the same as thirteen hours in the Last Hero story. 

We also have this passage in a Bran POV just before Bloodraven tells Bran it's time for him to become a greenseer:

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The moon was a crescent, thin and sharp as the blade of a knife. The days marched past, one after the other, each shorter than the one before. The nights grew longer. No sunlight ever reached the caves beneath the hill. No moonlight ever touched those stony halls. Even the stars were strangers there. Those things belonged to the world above, where time ran in its iron circles, day to night to day to night to day. (Dance, Bran III)

So the "long" night is a winter night - day and night are battling or borrowing or lending to each other so that one is short and one is long until the process reverses. The Night's King and the Day's King (possibly the Last Hero, whose mission was to end the Long Night) are locked in a cycle, though - night and day alternating for all eternity. 

(Note that the crescent moon is like a blade in this excerpt. Bran saw a woman use a sickle-shaped blade to cut someone's throat in the Winterfell gods wood.) 

Three other thoughts if this clock metaphor is correct:

- Arya comes to be called "no one." Is that wordplay on "noon"? Is she in the middle between the Day's King and the Night's King?

- The hand metaphor throughout the books is probably linked to the idea that clocks have hands - minute hands and hour hands. (Although I'm thinking the Second Sons could represent second hands.) But I'm also wondering whether minute and hour hands could explain some of the sword symbolism: Ice is melted into a big and little sword - like a big and little hand on a clock?). 

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And beyond, where the Honeywine widened into Whispering Sound, rose the Hightower, its beacon fires bright against the dawn. From where it stood atop the bluffs of Battle Island, its shadow cut the city like a sword. Those born and raised in Oldtown could tell the time of day by where that shadow fell. Some claimed a man could see all the way to the Wall from the top. Perhaps that was why Lord Leyton had not made the descent in more than a decade, preferring to rule his city from the clouds.

- The Hightower is a timepiece and it is linked to the Wall in this description. 

[Impbread]

On 6/29/2021 at 11:22 AM, Mourning Star said:

What is happening here... I was trying to say that the story is written to allude to things without being explicit, which is exactly what you are describing with Ned and Jon's parentage. I feel like you are making my point. Ned giving hints in his thoughts but not spelling it out is why the mystery/story works.

Ok again I feel like you are conflating a discussion about story structure with the plot.

There are plot reasons Aemon was sent south, namely Jon is concerned Mel will try to sacrifice Aemon for his King's blood.

Then there is the story telling reasons for having Aemon die in transit in the south rather than just killing him off at the wall. As in why the author chose to tell the story that way.

These two aren't the same.

Although, side note, I suspect there is fantastic convergence of plot and story purpose, for ironies sake, if Craster was Aemon's bastard son, since the baby swap actually left "king's blood" (Targaryen blood) in the form of Gilley's baby who is being passed off as Mance's. Jon accomplishing the opposite of what he had hoped with the baby swap.

The histories as presented are not reliable, something we have seen and been told repeatedly, this passage indicates it includes the origins of the Watch.

 

I can agree with your argument on why Aemon had to leave the wall. 

 

On 6/29/2021 at 12:57 PM, ATaleofSalt&Onions said:

I think "easily" is being a bit generous. Even with a tenure of just 4 years per commander, he'd be well into his 60s when he took over assuming he was at least a teenager when it was founded. And that's still not the same as being around before or during the first appearance of the Others (which is what I actually said in that post), which would be (at the latest) the onset of the Long Night rather than its end. Assuming the LN lasted at least around 15 years (seems to make sense with it being described as a generational thing), he'd be in his late 70s at a minimum. You can come up with all sort of speculation about how he could have done X or aged more slowly, etc., my point is just that the text never suggests that he was around before the Others showed up for the first time.

 I was just trying to point out that it was possible that he was. You are probably correct that he wasn't. I hope we get some reveal on what actually happened with the Nights King. It's something I'm very interested in. 

[Impbread]

On 6/29/2021 at 2:02 PM, Julia H. said:

Sam does not necessarily think it is very important or at the moment useful, but it still might be. He did take the time to try to mention it though. It is perhaps less likely that he just wanted to tell Jon when a certain historical document had been written just as a fun fact, than that he thought the date signified something (like the number of LC's not being consistent with the information in the document) that related to the present situation or Jon, personally, at least a little bit. However, my main argument was the use of but as a conjunction, which normally introduces something in contrast with something else, and a writer knows that quite well. In addition, before the sentence in question, Sam mentions tales, which introduces the idea of doubt (which may be on his mind), and then he says: "we say that you're the nine hundred and ninety-eighth Lord Commander of the Night's Watch, but" 

Why is this sentence introduced by "we say" when Sam could just state the number as a fact if he is not going to cast doubt on it and why is he using but if he is just going to state a logical conclusion? 

Probably. I don't think Sam is just trying to tell random stories, there must be some connection between what he is trying to say and what Jon is asking. However, he realizes that at the moment Jon wants some very specific piece of information, something that could be translated into practical knowledge right away, whereas Sam has probably found information that needs to be interpreted through research and analysis to make sense. 

 

 

Sam 

 

On 6/29/2021 at 2:50 PM, Mourning Star said:

Hard to know, but there might be something odd going on with the 1000 number... or maybe it's just a nice big number...

It was cool and dim beneath the silk. As she let the door flap close behind her, Dany saw a finger of dusty red light reach out to touch her dragon's eggs across the tent. For an instant a thousand droplets of scarlet flame swam before her eyes. She blinked, and they were gone.

...

A face took shape within the hearth. Stannis? she thought, for just a moment … but no, these were not his features. A wooden face, corpse white. Was this the enemy? A thousand red eyes floated in the rising flames. He sees me. Beside him, a boy with a wolf's face threw back his head and howled.

...

"What do you see, my lady?" the boy asked, softly.
Skulls. A thousand skulls, and the bastard boy again. Jon Snow.

...

The knight nodded. "The red temple buys them as children and makes them priests or temple prostitutes or warriors. Look there." He pointed at the steps, where a line of men in ornate armor and orange cloaks stood before the temple's doors, clasping spears with points like writhing flames. "The Fiery Hand. The Lord of Light's sacred soldiers, defenders of the temple."
Fire knights. "And how many fingers does this hand have, pray?"
"One thousand. Never more, and never less. A new flame is kindled for every one that gutters out."
Benerro jabbed a finger at the moon, made a fist, spread his hands wide. When his voice rose in a crescendo, flames leapt from his fingers with a sudden whoosh and made the crowd gasp. The priest could trace fiery letters in the air as well. Valyrian glyphs. Tyrion recognized perhaps two in ten; one was Doom, the other Darkness.

...

"Let me tell you what will happen," Jon said. "The dead will rise again, in their hundreds and their thousands. They will rise as wights, with black hands and pale blue eyes, and they will come for us."

Just so!

Nice catch on the amount of times 1000 is used in the story. Could be of some significance. I think Bloodraven mentions seeing through 1000 eyes. I could be mistaken though 

[Seams]

On 6/29/2021 at 2:50 PM, Mourning Star said:

. . . . there might be something odd going on with the 1000 number... or maybe it's just a nice big number...

There was an interesting discussion a few years ago that hit on an idea for the number 1000. A forum participant named @Macgregor of the North put out the idea that the phrase "a thousand years ago" was a signal for the reader that an event was repeating something that had happened in ancient history or legend. The idea was part of a larger discussion of "time loops," with an emphasis on Bran as a repeat of Bran the Builder and other Brans from Westeros history. He provides a number of examples in this post:

 

(If that link takes you to the beginning of the thread, the discussion of the "thousand years" phrase begins on p. 6, post #110.)

Combined with that quote about the Fiery Hand having 1000 fingers, never more and never less, maybe we are being told that something has to be done to stop the time loop from starting over again - the Night's Watch has to prevent a 1,000th Lord Commander from taking the leadership position. If that happens, the whole history with Others and unbalanced seasons will begin again. 

Further on, that thread also includes some discussion of Sam's interrupted remark about the list of Lord Commanders. The person speculated that a time loop had started over again (history repeating itself), explaining why the written list Sam had was not as long as the reported 998 lord commanders passed down by tradition. 

Dany also has a thousand warriors that may be the equivalent of the (almost) 1,000 Lord Commanders:

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"Did I not give you an army, sweetest of women? A thousand knights, each in shining armor."

The armor had been made of silver and gold, the knights of jade and beryl and onyx and tourmaline, of amber and opal and amethyst, each as tall as her little finger. "A thousand lovely knights," she said, "but not the sort my enemies need fear. (Clash, Daenerys III)

Of course, she goes on to buy the real army of the Unsullied, greatly exceeding the magic 1,000 number:

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Her stomach roiling, Dany wheeled her silver about and trotted toward the center of the plaza, and the army she had bought so dear. Rank on rank on rank they stood, her stone halfmen with their hearts of brick; eight thousand and six hundred in the spiked bronze caps of fully trained Unsullied, and five thousand odd behind them, bareheaded, yet armed with spears and shortswords. The ones farthest to the back were only boys, she saw, but they stood as straight and still as all the rest. (Storm, Daenerys III)

 

[LynnS]

2 hours ago, Seams said:

There was an interesting discussion a few years ago that hit on an idea for the number 1000. A forum participant named @Macgregor of the North put out the idea that the phrase "a thousand years ago" was a signal for the reader that an event was repeating something that had happened in ancient history or legend. The idea was part of a larger discussion of "time loops," with an emphasis on Bran as a repeat of Bran the Builder and other Brans from Westeros history. He provides a number of examples in this post:

Thanks for posting this link.  It's an eye opener. 

Wow! I wasn't aware that there had been any previous discussion about time loops.  Since Martin has said that he has been experimenting with time and causality; I think all this stuff is back on the table. 

The idea that Bran's death resets the loop resonates with the 3EC showing Bran the heart of winter and telling him it's the reason he must live.  

Euron presents himself as the coming storm, with the express purpose of breaking the world and killing all the gods; including the gods of the forest.  The WWs might be tooling up in Bran's defense.

The idea that he has knowledge which can't be readily explained for a boy of 7; explains why Jojen calls him an old man.

I don't think we can discount his presence at the Tourney of Harrenhall:

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A Storm of Swords - Bran II

"Perhaps they did. The mystery knight dipped his lance before the king and rode to the end of the lists, where the five champions had their pavilions. You know the three he challenged."

"The porcupine knight, the pitchfork knight, and the knight of the twin towers." Bran had heard enough stories to know that. "He was the little crannogman, I told you."

"Whoever he was, the old gods gave strength to his arm. The porcupine knight fell first, then the pitchfork knight, and lastly the knight of the two towers. None were well loved, so the common folk cheered lustily for the Knight of the Laughing Tree, as the new champion soon was called. When his fallen foes sought to ransom horse and armor, the Knight of the Laughing Tree spoke in a booming voice through his helm, saying, 'Teach your squires honor, that shall be ransom enough.' Once the defeated knights chastised their squires sharply, their horses and armor were returned. And so the little crannogman's prayer was answered . . . by the green men, or the old gods, or the children of the forest, who can say?"

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A Storm of Swords - Bran II

"Are you certain you never heard this tale before, Bran?" asked Jojen. "Your lord father never told it to you?"

Bran shook his head. The day was growing old by then, and long shadows were creeping down the mountainsides to send black fingers through the pines. If the little crannogman could visit the Isle of Faces, maybe I could too. All the tales agreed that the green men had strange magic powers. Maybe they could help him walk again, even turn him into a knight. They turned the little crannogman into a knight, even if it was only for a day, he thought. A day would be enough.