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Catelyn was right about everything.


Impbread
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     Looking back at Cat she was correct about every bit of advice she gave Rob regarding the war and a large amount of other things.This post is a Cat appreciation thread of sorts. To be honest I didn't care for her character when I first got into the books, but looking back she was right on the money with the war time counsel she gave to Rob he just never agreed for whatever reason.

     She was right when she told Rob to make common cause with Stannis or Renly. Aligning with Stannis after Renly died would have insured victory.Tywin would have been trapped between Stannis and Robs army and he would've been crushed. The whole reason Rob called his banners was to save his father. Once Ned was executed Robs first move should have been finding more allies not pissing in the wind and alienating Stannis by declaring independence which was never his goal or even a thought before Neds death. 

       She was right when she told Rob not to marry Jayne ( not knowing it was too late he already had). With Robs marriage to Jane he destroyed his alliance with the Freys and also ruined future marriage prospects with families with a much larger army and much more money(Tyrells, Hightower, even the Martells). Not to mention her mother is secretly working for Tywin making sure she wont get pregnant. I don't know what was going on with her Uncle but he was bad news to.

     She was 100% correct when she begged Rob not to release Theon. She knew that Theons father would reclaim his independence while Rob was busy fighting and that Theon would betray him once he was out of there grasp. This was Robs costliest and dumbest mistake he made. When Theon returns home the iron born are free to invade the unguarded North (which is stupid and just for spite because the Starks killed his family breached his keep and took his last living son as a hostage/ward. Attacking the cold, sparse, poor, land locked North made zero sense when the West and Casterly Rock were also undefended but impossibly rich and very accessible by boat which the iron born have lots of).If Theon was still hostage the Iron born never would have taken the North. If the iron fleet joins Rob in exchange  for independence after the war, stays neutral, or goes pillaging in the unprotected and very rich West Rob has no need to return North to retake his home. Which also means he has no need to cross the Twins and get murdered while in route. If the iron born joined the fight with him he could cut his losses with the Freys. The iron born have ships, which he is in diar need of. The iron born are also better fighters and there are more of them than Frey soldiers. Also the iron fleet enables Rob to get North any time he needs quickly without the need of crossing the Twins and getting within reach of the Freys. Even after his betrayal of the Freys and they had left his cause he still had a shot at victory.  

     Catelyn did tell Rob to be wary of Roose Bolton. And never to trust the late lord Walder Frey with your life. He will sell it to the highest bidder (this time it was Tywin) Rob does the opposite and makes Roose  one of his chief commanders and completely trusting him to have his back. Believes Walder when he says he will be forgiven if he comes to the Twins and apologized in person. This old man  is known to always pick the winning side and Robs side is currently losing what is starting to look like a hopeless war. Hes known to be extremely proud and prickly when it comes to his families respect and honor. Tired of being looked down upon by older more historical families like the Starks and Tullys. Because of Rob and Catelyns incompetence Walder has what is believed to be the last living Stark and last living Tullys under his own roof. Of course hes going to take his vengeance. Cat knew it was very possible that is why she asks for food and drink to invoke guests right. She had  to know killing guests wouldnt bither him. Hes 90 something hes not worried about being cursed After the Freys murder Rob and his mother.Roose had the opportunity to take the North for himself. The Freys couldn't have pulled this off without Roose weakening Robs army from within by getting everyone but his own men slaughtered and sewing anarchy with his false directions to the other parts of Robs army  I feel If Rob had promised Edmure to the Freys after the war to at least keep them neutral and not a threat to his rear. Roose couldn't pull his coup off without the guarantee of Robs death from the Freys and support from both house Frey,  and house Lannister,and house Dustin in the aftermath. He knows that if Rob lives his house will be extinguished. Eventually  Roose' crimes would come to light illustrating how he'd been operating  in bad faith since the  very beginning.

     Catelyn was even right to let Jaime go and to trust Tyrion. Tyrion being the only decent adult Lannister in the city. Joffrey executed Ned believing Rob still had Jaime as his hostage and didn't care if he was sacrificing him  Tywin was ready to move forward as Tyrion as his heir. Trading Jaime was the only hope she had of ever seeing her daughters again. Although the trade didn't work it indirectly got Brienne to take up a quest to find the girls and protect them/fight the others. Shes obviously going to succeed. They wouldn't give her a sword that was made from The Stark ancestral sword if she wasn't going to play a big part in the girls lives/ the battle for dawn. No coincidence that Valyrian steel can be set aflame and it won't change its physical make up. Flame just happens to kill the white walkers th thralls of the others and valyrian steel itself can kill others themselves. Also by releasing Jaime she inadvertently started his path to redemption. Jaime is going to play a huge part in the Starks story as he was in Brans dream as the knight that shown Like the sun with the girls around him. I also think hes going to grow apart from Cersei. I think it has already started. Hes gets the letter from Cersei begging him for help  and he doesn't just head for her immediately like he would have in the past. I think hes going to fall in live with Brienne and father a child on her.The further he drifts from Cersei the more knightly he becomes. He upholds his promise to Catelyn and doesn't take up weapons against the Tullys and does everything he can to safely return her daughters home by questing Brienne with the task with Neds own steel.

     Although Catelyns decision to release Jaime was a net positive for her family and the likelyhood of the Stark family survival. At the time it was ruinous to Robs cause. She inflamed lord Karstark by releasing jaime who killed two of his sons. So he took it out on two unarmed Lannisters. By doing so he forced Rob to punish him rather severely especially the way Karstark was mocking him calling him boy. Saying hes no king. Basically begging for Rob to execute him and forever cursing himself for kinslaying.Catelyn again giving solid advice in this crucial situation. Says he should keep lord Karstark as a hostage to ensure his heir and fighting men stay loyal. So of course Rob doing everything he can to defeat himself decides to execute him. Not a great idea when  you can still get his men to fight for you. 300 cavalry and twice as many mounts. 

     Cats last pearl of wisdom she offers Rob is to leave his bride behind when traveling to the Twins and to keep his wolf by his side. Again he didn't listen and let them cage Greywind. Sealing both there fates.

      Still have to bag on Catelyn. She knows Walder Freys word is worthless. She tells her son as much many times. When they first arrived at the Twins she wouldn't even let Rob enter to treat with Walder because she thinks he might slit his throat or hand him over to Tywin, but now she thinks its safe enough for Rob to enter, and the heir to Riverrun and other likely hostages. This defies logic. This move if returning to the Twins goes against everything we know of Cat and her skepticism and the caution she takes when it comes to her children. She doesn't even trust Jon to be in Robs will and hes Neds son as far as she knows, but we are supposed to believe she really didn't expect Walder to try an exact extreme vengeance? Her brother has no kids.That leaves her, her uncle, her brother, and Rob as the last direct blood of those  houses. Why the hell would you take your entire bloodline to an angry known betrayer tthat's likely looking for recompense for the humiliation his family endured? Greywind howled the whole way there and it poured the entire time. She knows Greywind can smell death she states that the chapter before when he howls after the Lannister prisoners are murdered.Heading where she was with the current circumstances and Greywind isn't acting normal and is howling. She also knows those wolves protect her kids but doesn't heed the terrible omen on the way to hers and her son's doom. What do you all think of Catelyn? She did give a lot of good advice but didn't follow it herself and it cost her and Robs lives.

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Cat is a bit of a Cassandra figure, she can't make people listen to her even when she's right. Also, she's written in a way to make readers doubt her judgement - like the mental breakdown she had early in the first book, and the regular self-doubts, and growing depression. But she is right most of the time. She lets Robb overrule her - she has to, he's her king.

2 hours ago, Impbread said:

now she thinks its safe enough for Rob to enter, and the heir to Riverrun and other likely hostages

It was her idea to offer Edmure as replacement son-in-law. Oops, But it wasn't a bad idea, the Riverlands are described as richer lands than the North, so Lord Walder should have been pleased.

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3 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

Cat is a bit of a Cassandra figure, she can't make people listen to her even when she's right. Also, she's written in a way to make readers doubt her judgement - like the mental breakdown she had early in the first book, and the regular self-doubts, and growing depression. But she is right most of the time. She lets Robb overrule her - she has to, he's her king.

It was her idea to offer Edmure as replacement son-in-law. Oops, But it wasn't a bad idea, the Riverlands are described as richer lands than the North, so Lord Walder should have been pleased.

Yes richer but hes wealthy. He wants his family that has always been snubbed by the older and great houses to become royalty. Her idea to have Edmure marry a Frey wasn't a bad idea. Bringing what she thought was her last surviving son their after what he pulled on old Walder is beyond illogical. She knew there was a good chance Walder was going to try to kill or harm them or she wouldn't have been so insistent Rob asked for food and drink. She also knows how little Walder cares about oaths and common decency. Knowing that she should have had the wedding at River run or only sent Edmure with some pretext Rob was ill wounded or indisposed. Anything but walking right into a murderous old man's lair. She wouldn't allow Rob to go in when Rob first marched South in the beginning of the war of 5 kings, but after Rob broke his oath and pissed on Walder she decided it would be ok for Rob to go in and spend some quality time with the family he spurned. I swear she was just so depressed and went there to put an end to it.

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Am I to believe Littlefinger and Lysa were regular respectable type people while Catelyn knew them. Never in the intimacy that she knew them did they drop the facade and reveal a true nature that would make one wary of them?

I find it hard to reconcile Cat's perceptiveness after the war with the naive trusting she displayed before the war, that she basically caused to begin (it would have almost certainly happened anyway but her actions decided it happened when it did).

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38 minutes ago, chrisdaw said:

Am I to believe Littlefinger and Lysa were regular respectable type people while Catelyn knew them. Never in the intimacy that she knew them did they drop the facade and reveal a true nature that would make one wary of them?

I find it hard to reconcile Cat's perceptiveness after the war with the naive trusting she displayed before the war, that she basically caused to begin (it would have almost certainly happened anyway but her actions decided it happened when it did).

It’s strange; in AGOT Catelyn II she tells Ned to not trust Robert because he’s probably changed from when they grew up together, yet she tells Ned to trust Petyr because they grew up together. Hypocrisy much?

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8 hours ago, Impbread said:

     She was right when she told Rob to make common cause with Stannis or Renly. Aligning with Stannis after Renly died would have insured victory.Tywin would have been trapped between Stannis and Robs army and he would've been crushed. The whole reason Rob called his banners was to save his father. Once Ned was executed Robs first move should have been finding more allies not pissing in the wind and alienating Stannis by declaring independence which was never his goal or even a thought before Neds death. 

 

This is misleading. The River lords and the Northern lords are having their big meeting to discuss what to do about Renly and Stannis. It's a difficult decision for all of them, including Robb. Stannis should be the legitimate heir but Renly has the big army. Before Robb makes a decision the lords suddenly all declare him King. He couldn't realistically tell all those lords no. Your post seems to imply that she had already advised him to choose Renly or Stannis and instead he ignored that and made himself King.

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9 hours ago, The Hoare said:

I've always found Catelyn a very stupid person. Pretty much all the advices she give are obvious.

I disagree that releasing Jaime was a good idea too. This ruined the Stark cause and sealed the fate of her daughters, even if the Red Wedding hadnt happened.

It didn't change anything Jaime was useless sitting there. Joffrey executed Ned. Tywin, Cersei, and Tyrion all assumed Jaime would be executed for that in turn. Jaime was the only chance she ever had of seeing her daughters again. The Lannisters weren't going to stop fighting to save Jaime. What good would Rob holding him and having Karstark potentially murder him? Hes more trouble than its worth protecting him. His only value is in trade. I mean yeah Rob lost the Karstarks but they only had 300 men or something like that. He could have avoided losing them if he would have used Karstark as a hostage so his men stayed loyal until the fighting is done. Then sent him to the wall after the war. Thst way he gets the fighting men keeps his word by sparing Lord Karstarks life and getting rid of him by shipping him to the wall. That is what I call diplomacy. Also Jaine being released leads to Brienne to embark o n her quest to help the Stark girls. Brienne is shown to be the finest knights in the realm (I know she isn't knighted but she acts the most honorable out of many of the warriors we see) now she has Neds steel with her.

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3 hours ago, Groo said:

This is misleading. The River lords and the Northern lords are having their big meeting to discuss what to do about Renly and Stannis. It's a difficult decision for all of them, including Robb. Stannis should be the legitimate heir but Renly has the big army. Before Robb makes a decision the lords suddenly all declare him King. He couldn't realistically tell all those lords no. Your post seems to imply that she had already advised him to choose Renly or Stannis and instead he ignored that and made himself King.

She did advise him to find more allies. He is their liege lord. He can tell them to do whatever the hell he wants within reason. If he is afraid to tell his vassals no then he definitely shouldn't be a King. A good king does what's best for his realm. As soon as Rob got word Renly died he could have sent someone to treat with Stannis. That would have been the best move for the North men. They would have routed Tywin and saved many Northern lives in the process. If he didn't want to join Stannis he could have made a marriage proposal to the Tyrells. The loss of the Frey forces would be nothing compared to what they would gain in men, food, and  wealth. Rob just wanted to play at being king. If he was serious he would have set Jane aside and married a Tyrell or Martell. 

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6 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

It’s strange; in AGOT Catelyn II she tells Ned to not trust Robert because he’s probably changed from when they grew up together, yet she tells Ned to trust Petyr because they grew up together. Hypocrisy much?

Good point she reads everyone correctly except Littlefinger. He set up the downfall of house Stark when he betrayed Ned and set up Tyrion to look guilty of hiring Brans assassin. He also has Lysa send that message telling her sister Jon was murdered by the Lannisters. He single handedly set the table for the Lion and wolf to be at eachother throat. He just happens to be leading Ned back from his whore house when Jaime attacks him in the street. I don't know how she could be so shrewd with everyone else and being super cautious. Yet she believes everything Littlefinger tells her without a second thought. I would blame her for Neds death but Littlefinger himself tells Ned he can't be  trusted. The moment Ned couldn't afford a single slip up he puts his life right in Littlefingers hands.Ned wasn't dumb he knew that they were all vipers but Littlefinger told him he should make sure Joffrey ascends the throne. He also knows Littlefinger at this time owns a tiny shit stained rock he isn't known to be wealthy. So that means all his power comes from his place on the council. If Ned becomes Regent or Stannis becomes king littlefinger loses whatever prospect he may have had at making a match with a wealthy woman from court his seat at the council and whatever the perks were that came with it. Plus he loses all influence on the royal family and the king  obviously littlefinger will do anything to ensure his fruits have time to ripen. I think he may have been thinking about lady Tandas daughter and effing her to gain control if her estate. Same trick he used on Lysa but on a much smaller scale 

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3 hours ago, Impbread said:

Good point she reads everyone correctly except Littlefinger. He set up the downfall of house Stark when he betrayed Ned and set up Tyrion to look guilty of hiring Brans assassin. He also has Lysa send that message telling her sister Jon was murdered by the Lannisters. He single handedly set the table for the Lion and wolf to be at eachother throat. He just happens to be leading Ned back from his whore house when Jaime attacks him in the street. I don't know how she could be so shrewd with everyone else and being super cautious. Yet she believes everything Littlefinger tells her without a second thought. I would blame her for Neds death but Littlefinger himself tells Ned he can't be  trusted. The moment Ned couldn't afford a single slip up he puts his life right in Littlefingers hands.Ned wasn't dumb he knew that they were all vipers but Littlefinger told him he should make sure Joffrey ascends the throne. He also knows Littlefinger at this time owns a tiny shit stained rock he isn't known to be wealthy. So that means all his power comes from his place on the council. If Ned becomes Regent or Stannis becomes king littlefinger loses whatever prospect he may have had at making a match with a wealthy woman from court his seat at the council and whatever the perks were that came with it. Plus he loses all influence on the royal family and the king  obviously littlefinger will do anything to ensure his fruits have time to ripen. I think he may have been thinking about lady Tandas daughter and effing her to gain control if her estate. Same trick he used on Lysa but on a much smaller scale 

And yet Catelyn took Littlefinger at his word and "arrested" Tyrion. That makes her just as much of a dupe as Ned since she chose to arrest Tyrion, not Ned.

Edited by Angel Eyes
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1 hour ago, Angel Eyes said:

And yet Catelyn took Littlefinger at his word and "arrested" Tyrion. That makes her just as much of a dupe as Ned since she chose to arrest Tyrion, not Ned.

    This is really unexplainable for her character. She doesn't even trust her own sister but we are supposed to believe the little sweetheart Peter is going to be exactly the same and completely trustworthy. She warns Ned that Robert may have changed and Ned has seen Robert much more recently than shes seen sweet Peter. Not buying it. She also knows the city is full of vipers and the only way survive and thrive is kill the other players. Yet she thinks of the same little boy. Its impossible to be selling whores and scheming and spying for him not to be degraded at least to some extent.

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11 minutes ago, Impbread said:

    This is really unexplainable for her character. She doesn't even trust her own sister but we are supposed to believe the little sweetheart Peter is going to be exactly the same and completely trustworthy. She warns Ned that Robert may have changed and Ned has seen Robert much more recently than shes seen sweet Peter. Not buying it. She also knows the city is full of vipers and the only way survive and thrive is kill the other players. Yet she thinks of the same little boy. Its impossible to be selling whores and scheming and spying for him not to be degraded at least to some extent.

I think you probably have to allow for how emotion may have been affecting her judgement at when she arrested Tyrion. 

Completely unexpectedly she comes across the man who has been accused of trying to kill her son and its in her power to get revenge and justice. Arresting him was driven more by pent up emotion than reason. 

I see that decision as fuelled more by grief and love for Bran rather than trust of Petyr. Later on at the Eyrie, once she's had time to think some more, she appears to second guess her decision. 

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8 minutes ago, Lady_Qohor said:

I think you probably have to allow for how emotion may have been affecting her judgement at when she arrested Tyrion. 

Completely unexpectedly she comes across the man who has been accused of trying to kill her son and its in her power to get revenge and justice. Arresting him was driven more by pent up emotion than reason. 

I see that decision as fuelled more by grief and love for Bran rather than trust of Petyr. Later on at the Eyrie, once she's had time to think some more, she appears to second guess her decision. 

Yeah  I can agree with that. But Peter has set her up to feel like that. Hes told her Lannisters killed Jon Arryn. He told her that the cats paws knife was Tyrions. Honestly though you really would have to be the biggest fool ever to give a killer your knife to use especially one so easily identified. Tyrion has unlimited money and there are all sorts of free riders traveling with the king.  If he needed to buy steel it would be available. Plus Tyrion has absolutely no motive. What does he gain from Brans death? Nothing I can think of. The entire murder plot makes absolutely no sense. Normally Cat would see that but she trusts sweet pete her childhood friend almost 20 years ago. 

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19 hours ago, Impbread said:

      Catelyn was even right to let Jaime go and to trust Tyrion. Tyrion being the only decent adult Lannister in the city. Joffrey executed Ned believing Rob still had Jaime as his hostage and didn't care if he was sacrificing him  Tywin was ready to move forward as Tyrion as his heir.

Everybody gets some wood on the ball sometimes. She made a good number of mistakes, too. Some of them pretty foolish.

I don't think word of Jaime's capture had reached the capital by the time Ned was executed. These wo events are only two chapters apart, and Tywin doesn't learn of it until about four chapters after the execution. So maybe, but not likely.

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I had to read the OP twice since at first I was sure this was satire... but I think you are serious?

Cat is, while perhaps sympathetic at time, neither a good person nor does she make good choices.

20 hours ago, Impbread said:

She was right when she told Rob to make common cause with Stannis or Renly.

It's really hard to know when exactly you are talking about without quotes... do you mean when Rob was crowned King? Do you mean when she was sent to deal with Renly? 

20 hours ago, Impbread said:

She was right when she told Rob not to marry Jayne

Cat was the one who arranged the doomed marriage! blaming a child for being in an arranged marriage while applauding the parent who arranged it seems a bit backwards.

20 hours ago, Impbread said:

She was 100% correct when she begged Rob not to release Theon.

Was she?

Morally, I don't think there is really a debate that Robb was right. Theon had been a hostage half his life and had fought for him already. Blaming a child for his father's behavior is clearly wrong.  Theon went to Balon with every intention of doing what Rob wanted, and Balon was going to do his thing regardless of if Theon was returned or not. The real error was thinking the plan to get Balon on Robb's side would ever work, something Cat should have been able to advise Robb of.

With that said, it is hard to argue that letting Theon go was anything but a mistake in practice, given the sack of Winterfell, except perhaps for that at the end of the day Theon may have saved Bran and Rickon by faking their deaths (all be it unintentionally).

20 hours ago, Impbread said:

 Catelyn did tell Rob to be wary of Roose Bolton.

Kind of...

 "Pray, who were those men I saw here a moment ago? Roose Bolton, Rickard Karstark, Galbart and Robett Glover, the Greatjon, Helman Tallhart … you might have given the command to any of them. Gods be good, you might even have sent Theon, though he would not be my choice."

20 hours ago, Impbread said:

And never to trust the late lord Walder Frey with your life.

Cat is literally the one who negotiated away a marriage to her son for the service of a vassal.

This is a colossal error in judgement. Not only is it tremendously silly to negotiate for the loyalty of someone who has proved disloyal and is already sworn to loyalty, the price was insane. Quite possibly the worst deal in the history of deals. 

20 hours ago, Impbread said:

Catelyn was even right to let Jaime go and to trust Tyrion.

This one is a total head scratcher... this was treason, incredibly detrimental to Robb's cause, and the Red Wedding was only possible because Robb no longer held Jaime.

This action, possibly more than any of her others, killed Robb.

20 hours ago, Impbread said:

Tywin was ready to move forward as Tyrion as his heir.

I honestly do not know what you are talking about, when did this happen?

"You shall never have Casterly Rock, I promise you. But wed Sansa Stark, and it is just possible that you might win Winterfell."

Rather than continue I'll just say that it seems like you are just ignoring Cat's mistakes and looking at her actions in the most positive possible light.

She was in a position to play mother to both Jon and Theon, instead she, at best, neglected both. How different things might have been if Jon had been there to help Robb along the way, or there to help Bran.

She was wrong to encourage Ned to go south.

She was wrong about her own sister.

She kidnaped Tyrion when she had no authority to do so, he was innocent, and she publicly lied about where she was taking him. This was the first public act of violence which started the war.

She convinced Ned to trust Littlefinger, which got him killed.

But, you know what, all the stupid, if at times sympathetic, blunders aside... Ned's death, the War of Five Kings, The Red Wedding, etc... at the end of the day one thing that I really can't get over is that she goes out taking petty vengeance on an innocent handicapped fool...

I dreamt such a clangor I thought my head might burst, drums and horns and pipes and screams, but the saddest sound was the little bells.

Edited by Mourning Star
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8 hours ago, Impbread said:

He is their liege lord. He can tell them to do whatever the hell he wants within reason. 

Remind me again why Greatjon is missing two fingers. Is it because bannermen always do whatever their liege tells them? We have five books of examples of bannermen who are reluctant or headstrong or greedy or fearful or disloyal or ambitious. We have pointed discussions about the nature of power and whether it's just a shadow on the wall. What was Robb's alternative to accepting the crown? Going back to the North with a) the Riverlands still overrun and his uncle in a poor position, b) his sisters still captive or missing, c) his father dead and unavenged, d) several of his bannermen held captive by the Lannisters, e) no lands or money gained, and f) several of his bannermen with dead sons and fathers and nothing to show for it. Is that what you meant by "let's go home to our families before winter you know they would be more then happy to."? They'd go home alright and then they'd never come again when he called them.

Edited by Groo
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On 6/28/2021 at 9:06 PM, Impbread said:

Once Ned was executed Robs first move should have been finding more allies not pissing in the wind and alienating Stannis by declaring independence which was never his goal or even a thought before Neds death. 

      

This is 100% on Stannis.

 

Stannis had not declared. Robb was waiting on a letter from Stannis, expecting that he would declare, which would have allowed Robb to back Robert's oldest living brother against Robert's son, but Renly had too weak a claim for Robb to back.

 

Quote

We've had word from the south. Renly Baratheon has claimed his brother's crown."

"Renly? she said, shocked. "I had thought, surely it would be Lord Stannis'..."

"So did we all, my lady," Galbert Glover said.

[snip]

"You cannot mean to hold to Joffrey, my lord," Galbert Glover said. "He put you father to death."

"That makes him evil," Robb replied. "I do not know that it makes Renly king. Joffrey is still Robert's eldest trueborn son, so the throne of rightfully his by all the laws of the realm. Were he to die, and I mean to see that he does, he has a younger brother. Tommen is next in line after Joffrey. 

"Tommen is no less a Lannister," See Marq Piper snapped.

"As you say," said Robb, troubled. "Yet if neither one is king, still, how could it be Lord Renly? He's Robert's younger brother. Bran can't be Lord of Winterfell before me, and Renly can't be king before Lord Stannis."

Lady Mormont agreed. "Lord Stannis' has the better claim." 

"Renly is crowned," said Marq Piper.

[snip]

That is what we shall win if we join King Renly. What does Lord Stannis have against that, that we should cast it all aside?"

"The right," said Robb stubbornly. Catelyn thought he sounded eerily like his father as he said it.

"So you mean is to declare for Stannis?" asked Edmure.

"I don't know," said Robb. "I prayed to know what to do, but the gods did not answer.

 

If Stannis had gotten his ass in gear and actually declared himself King Stannis, that would have surely been the answer Robb was looking for.

Edited by Buried Treasure
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