Catelyn was right about everything.

[ATaleofSalt&Onions]

5 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

She was in a position to play mother to both Jon and Theon, instead she, at best, neglected both

I think you make some good points in your post, but it's absurd to expect Catelyn to be a mother to Jon and Theon. Jon was (believed to be) her husband's bastard and product of an adulterous affair who was raised in front of her in a manner highly unusual in Westeros, and Theon was essentially a hostage.

[SeanBeanedMeUp]

Releasing Jaime was still a stupid idea. Other than that she did get things right about not letting Theon go or not marrying Jeyne.

[Julia H.]

It was amazing to read first the OP and shortly after @Morning Star's post. It is to GRRM's great credit that he wrote such complex characters and situations, as well as difficult choices, that make such opposing interpretations quite convincingly possible.

After all that has happened in Westeros, it is often hard to say when a character was right or mistaken,  or which alternative actions (if any) would have led to a better outcome. Not to mention that morally right and practically right can be two different things. I think Catelyn is a complex character, who is far from being always right or always wrong, but very often there are no "clearly right" decisions either. Her primary goal is to save her family, and often the immediate survival of specific family members comes before any vision of a more distant future. In this, she is the opposite of Tywin, who does not care so much about the immediate wellbeing, even survival, of specific family members as about the long-term position of his family. We could say both of them failed, but most of Catelyn's children can still survive, while Tywin's family is in a very bad position. 

It may sound terrible, but I cannot fault Catelyn for Jinglebell. She was in a desperate situation, witnessing something that no mother should ever witness, which was enough to drive her insane and make her care about nothing else in that moment. 

Why did she trust Littlefinger and Lysa? Probably because Lysa was her little sister, and deep down she also regarded Petyr as family. Yes, she warned Ned about Robert having changed and yet, she failed to apply the same logic to herself and her childhood companions. This may well be a common failure to many of us though - it is easier to see clearly in the case of other people's lives than in the case of our own. What I find strange is not simply that Cat arrested Tyrion based on Littlefinger's false accusation and took him to Lysa, but that she did that despite everything that Ned had told her:

Quote

"Take Ser Rodrik and ride for Winterfell. I will watch over the girls. Go home to our sons and keep them safe."

Quote

 

"Once you are home, send word to Helman Tallhart and Galbart Glover under my seal. They are to raise a hundred bowmen each and fortify Moat Cailin. Two hundred determined archers can hold the Neck against an army. Instruct Lord Manderly that he is to strengthen and repair all his defenses at White Harbor, and see that they are well manned. And from this day on, I want a careful watch kept over Theon Greyjoy. If there is war, we shall have sore need of his father's fleet."

"War?" The fear was plain on Catelyn's face.

"It will not come to that," Ned promised her, praying it was true. He took her in his arms again. "The Lannisters are merciless in the face of weakness, as Aerys Targaryen learned to his sorrow, but they would not dare attack the north without all the power of the realm behind them, and that they shall not have. 

 

Ned had told her what to do and that she needed to do it to prevent war, yet she chose to arrest Tyrion and take him to Lysa instead of going to Winterfell to give Robb essential information and to keep her sons safe. 

[chrisdaw]

Stannis inexplicably not declaring earlier and Cat going from bumbling pawn to sage old advisor are the two biggest holes in the series for mine, they were done to suit the overall narrative and are inconsistent or illogical.

Stannis needed to not have declared so that Robb would be named KITN. And GRRM wanted to point out all Robb's mistakes in real time (it's for a direct comparison, when Jon comes south he's going to have the same situations but not make the same mistakes) and so needed Cat to know what was the correct course of action.

[Hugorfonics]

5 hours ago, Julia H. said:

In this, she is the opposite of Tywin, who does not care so much about the immediate wellbeing, even survival, of specific family members as about the long-term position of his family. 

Nice! Thats such a good catch! (Catelyn clutching Brans hand while Robb and Rickon make pop-tarts for dinner)

5 hours ago, Julia H. said:

Why did she trust Littlefinger and Lysa? Probably because Lysa was her little sister, and deep down she also regarded Petyr as family

Petyr teaches Sansa that the best lies are what you want to hear

Quote

"I did," Petyr admitted, "but our rock is a Royce, which is to say he is overproud and prickly. Had I asked him his price, he would have swelled up like an angry toad at the slight upon his honor. But this way . . . the man is not utterly stupid, but the lies I served him were sweeter than the truth. He wants to believe that Lysa valued him above her other bannermen.

Cat wants to believe in the worst, she wants justice for her son and her sister. So Petyr says, "sure!" 

Id also like to mention that Petyrs not some random dude at the water cooler, hes a lord of the small council, prestige, and accompanied by the kings very own lord of secrets. The fact that Spiderman, the master or whisperers, didnt object to anything adds heavy credence to knifegate. 

Now did Petyr expect Cat to apprehend Tyrion, like within the month? Outlook does not look good. Westeros is big while Tyrion is small. Does Petyr even know hes pissing off the edge of the world, course not because thats ridiculous. But Tyrions ridiculous and waddles up to Cats table grinning like an idiot.

I mean come on! Who would make small talk? The kings chancellors just little fingered this little attempted murderer on her son, hes getting knocked. Like, why the hell not, there are laws. And honestly, its now or never. Call them the old gods or the new, grumkins or snarks, but the accused is in her neighborhood with her fathers men and her husbands knight and her sisters house down the block. Family Duty Honor. Little guy aint have a chance.

(That Lysa commits more treason then a Blackryre isnt helpful)

5 hours ago, Julia H. said:

Ned had told her what to do and that she needed to do it to prevent war, yet she chose to arrest Tyrion and take him to Lysa instead of going to Winterfell to give Robb essential information and to keep her sons safe. 

What would Ned do? Probably fetch a block. 

[Julia H.]

6 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Petyr teaches Sansa that the best lies are what you want to hear

Cat wants to believe in the worst, she wants justice for her son and her sister. So Petyr says, "sure!" 

Id also like to mention that Petyrs not some random dude at the water cooler, hes a lord of the small council, prestige, and accompanied by the kings very own lord of secrets. The fact that Spiderman, the master or whisperers, didnt object to anything adds heavy credence to knifegate. 

Those are good points. To be honest, Cat made mistakes that we know, in retrospect, are mistakes, but at the time they were based on common sense. Take for example, advising Ned to go South despite his misgivings. We know it was a terribly bad idea, but once your king has travelled across half a continent (or more) with his wife, children, brothers-in-law and half his court in tow just to personally offer you the second most important office in the realm and to arrange a marriage between your daughter and his heir, how realistic is it that you can refuse without serious repercussions? 

Quote

I mean come on! Who would make small talk? The kings chancellors just little fingered this little attempted murderer on her son, hes getting knocked. Like, why the hell not, there are laws. And honestly, its now or never. Call them the old gods or the new, grumkins or snarks, but the accused is in her neighborhood with her fathers men and her husbands knight and her sisters house down the block. Family Duty Honor. Little guy aint have a chance.

(That Lysa commits more treason then a Blackryre isnt helpful)

What would Ned do? Probably fetch a block. 

It would be the natural solution if the guy was some commoner accused of a crime. With Tyrion, Ned wouldn't make small talk either, but I don't think he'd fetch a block - precisely because there are laws. Being the King's Hand, Ned would actually have more authority to arrest Tyrion than Catelyn has, but Ned conducts investigations before openly accusing a Lannister, and he knows he needs Robert's support in any move against them:

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"All justice flows from the king," he told her. "When I know the truth, I must go to Robert."

He says the above in connection with Jon Arryn's death, but I think his views are similar in the case of the accusation against Tyrion.

Family, Duty, Honor, precisely. This is what Cat's husband told her:

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"I want you to return to Winterfell at once. If there was one assassin, there could be others. Whoever ordered Bran's death will learn soon enough that the boy still lives."

It is her duty to gome home and protect her sons as a mother and as a wife. 

It is also her duty to help secure Winterfell and the North against a war looming on the horizon (because that's also what Ned told her to do). Instead, she makes a move that clearly escalates the conflict that could lead to war, without giving so much as a warning to Winterfell, and goes off to the Vale while loudly proclaiming that she is taking Tyrion to Winterfell. So what if the Lannisters attack the North now without anyone there having a clue that an attack could be coming? Or they might kidnap Sansa / Arya and send a letter to Winterfell demanding the release of Tyrion. 

 

 

[Dreadscythe95]

Well, sha was right in many things she adviced Robb but she was also very wrong in many others.

She was right that Robb should not release Theon, that he should make an alliance with at least one of the two Baratheon brothers or that he shoud mary a wife from a major House, like Margaery for example. She was also very right for telling Robb (though this is mainly in the show) that he should not offend Walder Frey when he gave his word to marry his daughter.

She was kinda wrong (although not massively wrong) in trusting Littlefinger and Lysa, eventhough she knew them for so many years. She was VERY WRONG for capturing Tyrion Lannister and taking him to The Vale with just speculation. She was VERY WRONG for releasing Jaimie Lannister (from an objective view). Also she was wrong for treating Jon Snow that way (though it's understandable) cause he was a vaulable ally to Robb.

[Hugorfonics]

5 hours ago, Julia H. said:

Those are good points. To be honest, Cat made mistakes that we know, in retrospect, are mistakes, but at the time they were based on common sense. Take for example, advising Ned to go South despite his misgivings. We know it was a terribly bad idea, but once your king has travelled across half a continent (or more) with his wife, children, brothers-in-law and half his court in tow just to personally offer you the second most important office in the realm and to arrange a marriage between your daughter and his heir, how realistic is it that you can refuse without serious repercussions? 

For sure, although the real blame is again on Lysa and Petyr for killing/lying about Jon. But, anyway, Im not sure it was guaranteed to be a mistake. Eddard wasnt destined to fail and as you say refusing Sansas hand could lead to a split with the kings grace. 

5 hours ago, Julia H. said:

It would be the natural solution if the guy was some commoner accused of a crime. With Tyrion, Ned wouldn't make small talk either, but I don't think he'd fetch a block - precisely because there are laws. Being the King's Hand, Ned would actually have more authority to arrest Tyrion than Catelyn has, but Ned conducts investigations before openly accusing a Lannister, and he knows he needs Robert's support in any move against them:

Quote

"All justice flows from the king," he told her. "When I know the truth, I must go to Robert."

He says the above in connection with Jon Arryn's death, but I think his views are similar in the case of the accusation against Tyrion.

So quickly, minor detail, Tyrions arrest was met with all legal mumbo jumbo 

Quote

"In the name of King Robert and the good lords you serve, I call upon you to seize him and help me return him to Winterfell to await the king's justice."

Hosters knights and men at arms are responsible for policing the land, so if they seize someone its because thats their job description, serving their good lords and king.

 

All justice flows from the king

(My god I love trying to understand Eddard)

Ok, so right off the bat thats bull, unless all justice for noblemen/ not deserters? This also creates discrepancies since Eddard himself was marked for death by his king, so then he made a new king. I digress, point being theres some leeway for the high lords, let alone Hands. And honestly, like the last king, justice is not in the kings interest. 

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"Abductions on the kingsroad and drunken slaughter in my streets," the king said. "I will not have it, Ned."

"Catelyn had good reason for taking the Imp—"

"I said, I will not have it! To hell with her reasons.

To hell with her reasons, to hell with justice. Should we be suprised?

Quote

"I have more concern for my nephew's welfare than I do for Lannister pride," Ned declared.

"That is because you do not sleep with a Lannister." Robert laughed

The king is compromised 

I believe Cat did the only thing she was capable of doing, Tyrion basically acknowledges the same. Taking him to KL would clearly not have had a positive outcome.

5 hours ago, Julia H. said:

Family, Duty, Honor, precisely. This is what Cat's husband told her:

Quote

"I want you to return to Winterfell at once. If there was one assassin, there could be others. Whoever ordered Bran's death will learn soon enough that the boy still lives."

It is her duty to gome home and protect her sons as a mother and as a wife. 

To me this falls under the keep the gentle sex in safe territory, honorable, chivalrous and mad chauvinistic. 

Quote

"And what of my wrath, Lord Stark?"

Robb did it too, eventually. It drove her mad, (not like LSH mad lol) like Cersei and other powerful women in asoiaf she doesnt understand why a capable woman shouldn't play the game herself.

5 hours ago, Julia H. said:

It is also her duty to help secure Winterfell and the North against a war looming on the horizon (because that's also what Ned told her to do). Instead, she makes a move that clearly escalates the conflict that could lead to war, without giving so much as a warning to Winterfell, and goes off to the Vale while loudly proclaiming that she is taking Tyrion to Winterfell. So what if the Lannisters attack the North now without anyone there having a clue that an attack could be coming? Or they might kidnap Sansa / Arya and send a letter to Winterfell demanding the release of Tyrion

This is a very good point. And while the North has like never been attacked and Theons still in the yard, war comes to her homeland Riverland.

Like her freed prisoner, she rolled the dice, even loaded them. Look shit turned ugly, yea. It didnt help that Tywins ready to scrap over a song let alone a son and that son refuses to be cordial for a second. But its Lysa, the other compromised.

How it shoulda been was Tyrions given decent accommodations based on his birth, or any number of modern laws, and Petyr and Jaime go to the Vale where a law abiding lady and a not insane, though still slickly boy lord, unravel the halfassed lie of catspaw. That coulda happened, who knows, maybe Joffrey would have been found guilty and the absolute worst king westeros has seen since that stark fucked an other wouldn't have ascended.

[Mourning Star]

20 hours ago, ATaleofSalt&Onions said:

I think you make some good points in your post, but it's absurd to expect Catelyn to be a mother to Jon and Theon. Jon was (believed to be) her husband's bastard and product of an adulterous affair who was raised in front of her in a manner highly unusual in Westeros, and Theon was essentially a hostage.

I think this is exactly the sort of behavior that differentiates a good person from a bad one, or perhaps it's better to say this was an opportunity to be good.

There are clearly reasons to understand Cat's behavior, but it is the hard choices that define us.

"A craven can be as brave as any man, when there is nothing to fear. And we all do our duty, when there is no cost to it. How easy it seems then, to walk the path of honor. Yet soon or late in every man's life comes a day when it is not easy, a day when he must choose."

19 hours ago, Julia H. said:

It may sound terrible, but I cannot fault Catelyn for Jinglebell. She was in a desperate situation, witnessing something that no mother should ever witness, which was enough to drive her insane and make her care about nothing else in that moment. 

Great post, and I couldn't agree more with how it reflects so well on the writing when readers can come away with such different interpretations and opinions of the same characters.

With that said, killing Jinglebell, an innocent, was one of those precipice moments for Cat, in my opinion, a clear point of no return.

"Honor," she spat. "How dare you play the noble lord with me! What do you take me for? You've a bastard of your own, I've seen him. Who was the mother, I wonder? Some Dornish peasant you raped while her holdfast burned? A whore? Or was it the grieving sister, the Lady Ashara? She threw herself into the sea, I'm told. Why was that? For the brother you slew, or the child you stole? Tell me, my honorable Lord Eddard, how are you any different from Robert, or me, or Jaime?"
"For a start," said Ned, "I do not kill children."

[ATaleofSalt&Onions]

4 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

I think this is exactly the sort of behavior that differentiates a good person from a bad one, or perhaps it's better to say this was an opportunity to be good.

She’s not a bad person for not being motherly to them, even more so in context. Absolutely nobody in their world would expect her to treat Jon and Theon like her own kids.

[Hugorfonics]

59 minutes ago, ATaleofSalt&Onions said:

She’s not a bad person for not being motherly to them, even more so in context. Absolutely nobody in their world would expect her to treat Jon and Theon like her own kids.

Theres a large diffrence between motherly and the disgusting behavior of Catelyn

[Angel Eyes]

1 hour ago, ATaleofSalt&Onions said:

She’s not a bad person for not being motherly to them, even more so in context. Absolutely nobody in their world would expect her to treat Jon and Theon like her own kids.

Not many people would say that someone should be dumped out a window while grieving. And she baited him into receiving that insult by using his name when she would have usually referred to him as Snow.

[Mourning Star]

1 hour ago, ATaleofSalt&Onions said:

She’s not a bad person for not being motherly to them, even more so in context. Absolutely nobody in their world would expect her to treat Jon and Theon like her own kids.

I'm not trying to suggest she had to try and raise them exactly as her own children... but even doing the right thing morally aside, it would have served her purpose to have at least tried to help raise them. You can make a case for Jon being neglected, given that he is supposedly her husband's bastard (The seeming willful ignorance or stupidity on her part to believe Jon was Ned's aside), but raising a Ward is literally the job description, and the whole other half of the reason for them besides being a hostage.

Lord Eddard had tried to play the father from time to time, but to Theon he had always remained the man who'd brought blood and fire to Pyke and taken him from his home. As a boy, he had lived in fear of Stark's stern face and great dark sword. His wife was, if anything, even more distant and suspicious.

[sifth]

Sorry, but I'll never view freeing Jamie as a smart move. Despite what Tyrion might think, I really doubt Tywin would have killed Rob at the RR, had Jamie still been alive.

[Julia H.]

8 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

For sure, although the real blame is again on Lysa and Petyr for killing/lying about Jon. But, anyway, Im not sure it was guaranteed to be a mistake. Eddard wasnt destined to fail and as you say refusing Sansas hand could lead to a split with the kings grace. 

I agree, there was no way Catelyn could know how wrong it all would go. Ned perhaps had a presentiment, but she didn't. I doubt there are many lords in the realm who would have refused the King's offer. 

8 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

So quickly, minor detail, Tyrions arrest was met with all legal mumbo jumbo 

Hosters knights and men at arms are responsible for policing the land, so if they seize someone its because thats their job description, serving their good lords and king.

Quote

"In the name of King Robert and the good lords you serve, I call upon you to seize him and help me return him to Winterfell to await the king's justice."

Those men did as they were told by Lord Tully's daughter. I don't think they would have acted the same way if a total strange had asked them to arrest Lord Tywin's son. The responsibility is all Catelyn's. If her words provide the legal context, then she was wrong to take Tyrion not to Winterfell but to the Vale and expose him to Lysa's justice.

8 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

All justice flows from the king

(My god I love trying to understand Eddard)

Ok, so right off the bat thats bull, unless all justice for noblemen/ not deserters? This also creates discrepancies since Eddard himself was marked for death by his king, so then he made a new king. I digress, point being theres some leeway for the high lords, let alone Hands. And honestly, like the last king, justice is not in the kings interest. 

Of course, justice for noblemen, especially for sons of very powerful families, is different than for commoners. Though even in the case of commoners, Ned carried out justice in the name of the king, it is quite obvious that between a Stark and a Lannister only the King (or the King's Hand) can do justice with authority. A Lannister will never accept justice from someone of equal rank. If the King fails to do justice, the result can easily be war. 

8 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

The king is compromised 

Sure, he is. But he shouldn't be. I'm not saying Ned would not have been disappointed by Robert's justice (again), only that he was trying to do things legally and through the authority of the King, and even that only after sufficient evidence had been gathered. He wouldn't have fetched a block for Tyrion right there.

8 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

I believe Cat did the only thing she was capable of doing, Tyrion basically acknowledges the same. Taking him to KL would clearly not have had a positive outcome.

We don't really know, but it's quite probable it wouldn't. My point is that Catelyn should have gone straight to Winterfell to fortify the North instead of giving the Lannisters immediate casus belli. 

8 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

To me this falls under the keep the gentle sex in safe territory, honorable, chivalrous and mad chauvinistic. 

Not necessarily or not only. The family and the household back in Winterfell needed information about the escalation of the conflict, and they needed to receive Ned's orders regarding defence. Originally, Cat had left Winterfell in order to personally warn Ned about the attempt on Bran's life. Now she has a similar mission: to take information back to Winterfell.

8 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

How it shoulda been was Tyrions given decent accommodations based on his birth, or any number of modern laws, and Petyr and Jaime go to the Vale where a law abiding lady and a not insane, though still slickly boy lord, unravel the halfassed lie of catspaw. That coulda happened, who knows, maybe Joffrey would have been found guilty and the absolute worst king westeros has seen since that stark fucked an other wouldn't have ascended.

Yes, that would have been lovely. But we would never have found it out because there wouldn't have been a story.  Speaking of what ifs, one thing I find extremely annoying is that during the journey to Lysa's, Cat and Tyrion talk about Littlefinger at one point, and Tyrion tells Cat that Littlfinger is a liar. What an opportunity for them to figure out together what's going on in the bacground! But, alas, no. 

[SeanF]

15 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

I think this is exactly the sort of behavior that differentiates a good person from a bad one, or perhaps it's better to say this was an opportunity to be good.

There are clearly reasons to understand Cat's behavior, but it is the hard choices that define us.

"A craven can be as brave as any man, when there is nothing to fear. And we all do our duty, when there is no cost to it. How easy it seems then, to walk the path of honor. Yet soon or late in every man's life comes a day when it is not easy, a day when he must choose."

Great post, and I couldn't agree more with how it reflects so well on the writing when readers can come away with such different interpretations and opinions of the same characters.

With that said, killing Jinglebell, an innocent, was one of those precipice moments for Cat, in my opinion, a clear point of no return.

"Honor," she spat. "How dare you play the noble lord with me! What do you take me for? You've a bastard of your own, I've seen him. Who was the mother, I wonder? Some Dornish peasant you raped while her holdfast burned? A whore? Or was it the grieving sister, the Lady Ashara? She threw herself into the sea, I'm told. Why was that? For the brother you slew, or the child you stole? Tell me, my honorable Lord Eddard, how are you any different from Robert, or me, or Jaime?"
"For a start," said Ned, "I do not kill children."

What you're demanding from her is not so much goodness as perfection, and that's an unfair demand to make of any person.  By the lights of her world, Catelyn was a good person.

I doubt if one person in a thousand - in Cat's position - would love Jon or Theon and it's unreasonable to expect her to do so.

As for Jinglebell, yes, what she did was wrong, but she was plainly out of her mind, after having seen her son and his retainers being slaughtered in front of her.

[Julia H.]

16 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

With that said, killing Jinglebell, an innocent, was one of those precipice moments for Cat, in my opinion, a clear point of no return.

"Honor," she spat. "How dare you play the noble lord with me! What do you take me for? You've a bastard of your own, I've seen him. Who was the mother, I wonder? Some Dornish peasant you raped while her holdfast burned? A whore? Or was it the grieving sister, the Lady Ashara? She threw herself into the sea, I'm told. Why was that? For the brother you slew, or the child you stole? Tell me, my honorable Lord Eddard, how are you any different from Robert, or me, or Jaime?"
"For a start," said Ned, "I do not kill children."

Yes, Jinglebell was innocent, if not exactly a child (about 50 years old). As a rule, Catelyn does not kill children, she made one desperate and mad move in extreme distress, acting on impulse. It was a last minute, desperate attempt at negotiating for her son's life, and that attempt failed - Robb was killed (as her other children had been, to her knowledge), her people were being slaughtered, she was about to die, the world had gone mad around her, and she may have felt it was at least partly her fault. She couldn't bear it with stoic resignation, but any mother in her situation could go mad and do anything that she normally wouldn't have thought of ever doing. Based on her psychological state at the moment, I don't think she would be convicted by a modern-day criminal court. It doesn't mean killing Jinglebell was the right thing to do, but she was out of her mind, and I cannot blame her for that, nor do I think that this is the act that defines her character. 

[Mystical]

15 hours ago, sifth said:

Sorry, but I'll never view freeing Jamie as a smart move. Despite what Tyrion might think, I really doubt Tywin would have killed Rob at the RR, had Jamie still been alive.

Considering that the Lannisters proceeded with the war despite Jamie being a hostage, I don't see what value he had as a prisoner to begin with. Sure as heck didn't stop Tywin in any way.

22 hours ago, Dreadscythe95 said:

She was VERY WRONG for capturing Tyrion Lannister and taking him to The Vale with just speculation.

Sure she was wrong but it could have been fixed if Tyrion had named the real culprit in her son's fall from the tower. Everything would have been cleared up then and they might never entered the Vale. Not to mention that it would have cast doubt on LittleFinger (because he lied about the culprit being Tyrion).

I find it kind of pointless to argue characters in the whole mess when GRRM so clearly was handing out miracles to the villains left and right. Whether with luck beyond what was believable (Cersei's 'plan' to get rid of Robert the most blatant example). Weather that just happened to kick in at the worst moment (Robb and army could have crossed the river without needing the bridge thanks to the years long summer but GRRM just had to make it rain for days right before so the river was filled up). Handing the 'good guys' so many stupid cookies it became a farce (Ned going to Cersei, Ned not taking Renly up on his offer, Robb letting Theon go, Robb not telling Edmure his plan, Cat acting contrary to previous behavior and so much more). Stannis not declaring when he should have. And that's just off the top of my head.

[Angel Eyes]

2 hours ago, Mystical said:

Considering that the Lannisters proceeded with the war despite Jamie being a hostage, I don't see what value he had as a prisoner to begin with. Sure as heck didn't stop Tywin in any way.

Sure she was wrong but it could have been fixed if Tyrion had named the real culprit in her son's fall from the tower. Everything would have been cleared up then and they might never entered the Vale. Not to mention that it would have cast doubt on LittleFinger (because he lied about the culprit being Tyrion).

I find it kind of pointless to argue characters in the whole mess when GRRM so clearly was handing out miracles to the villains left and right. Whether with luck beyond what was believable (Cersei's 'plan' to get rid of Robert the most blatant example). Weather that just happened to kick in at the worst moment (Robb and army could have crossed the river without needing the bridge thanks to the years long summer but GRRM just had to make it rain for days right before so the river was filled up). Handing the 'good guys' so many stupid cookies it became a farce (Ned going to Cersei, Ned not taking Renly up on his offer, Robb letting Theon go, Robb not telling Edmure his plan, Cat acting contrary to previous behavior and so much more). Stannis not declaring when he should have. And that's just off the top of my head.

My guess is that it would theoretically stop the Lannisters from executing Sansa and Arya (they thought she was still in King's Landing). Of course Joffrey slips the ropes by having his Kingsguard beat Sansa and Cersei allows him to do that; her reaction is basically to tell Sansa to grin and bear it.

I don't think Tyrion would have sold out Jaime by naming him as the person who pushed Bran out of a tower. It's said in Tyrion I, AGOT that Tyrion would forgive Jaime for anything (until hearing the truth about Tysha that is).

[Mourning Star]

7 hours ago, SeanF said:

What you're demanding from her is not so much goodness as perfection, and that's an unfair demand to make of any person.  By the lights of her world, Catelyn was a good person.

I’m not demanding anything.

Cat isnt Cersei, she didn’t have Jon killed in his cradle. But, that isn’t enough to call her behavior good.

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I doubt if one person in a thousand - in Cat's position - would love Jon or Theon and it's unreasonable to expect her to do so.

I think you have a low bar for goodness and humanity.

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As for Jinglebell, yes, what she did was wrong, but she was plainly out of her mind, after having seen her son and his retainers being slaughtered in front of her.

For all of these things, there are extenuating circumstances and understandable motivations to sympathize with. However, that’s literally the point I was making, it’s the hard choices that show who someone is not the easy ones, or as the author likes to say, the heart in conflict with itself.