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Catelyn was right about everything.


Impbread

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On 7/3/2021 at 10:10 AM, Impbread said:

I think you are mistaken. Tywin knows before he returns to the capital.

Tywin didn't return to the capital until the Battle of the Blackwater. Ned is long dead by then, and Jaime had been released, although Tywin might not know this.

Do you mean Tywin knew before Tyrion returned to the capital? That's true too. Tyrion and Tywin talk about Ned's execution in the same conversation they talk about Jaime's capture.

What I'm saying is that at the time Ned was executed in KL, it doesn't appear that anyone in KL (Cersei, Joffrey, LF or Varys) knew that Jaime had been captured. And we can see the approximate time that Tywin and Tyrion learn of It, which is some four chapters after Ned's execution. So at the time Joff took Ned's head, nobody was thinking that they needed Ned to trade for Jaime, because as far as they know, Jaime is still free. It was only after word of Jaime's capture came through did anyone start thinking about losing the opportunity to trade Ned for Jaime. But even before that, of course, everybody but Joffrey realized that Ned would have made a good hostage anyway -- eventually trading him for someone of importance. 

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On 6/28/2021 at 5:24 PM, Impbread said:

She knew there was a good chance Walder was going to try to kill or harm them or she wouldn't have been so insistent Rob asked for food and drink. She also knows how little Walder cares about oaths and common decency. Knowing that she should have had the wedding at River run or only sent Edmure with some pretext Rob was ill wounded or indisposed. Anything but walking right into a murderous old man's lair. She wouldn't allow Rob to go in when Rob first marched South in the beginning of the war of 5 kings, but after Rob broke his oath and pissed on Walder she decided it would be ok for Rob to go in and spend some quality time with the family he spurned. I swear she was just so depressed and went there to put an end to it.

Based on the general reaction of pretty much everyone in Westeros and about half everyone in the Free Cities, I would say that no one knew that Walder Frey and his family would violate guest right in such an murderously abominable way.

Walder Frey has always been an impolite, crude, self-indulgent opportunist but 

Honestly, neither Catelyn nor anyone in Robb's camp was in any position to demand anything of Walder. They were trying to win him back over. Why demand having the wedding at Riverrun?

On 6/28/2021 at 8:33 PM, chrisdaw said:

Am I to believe Littlefinger and Lysa were regular respectable type people while Catelyn knew them. Never in the intimacy that she knew them did they drop the facade and reveal a true nature that would make one wary of them?

I find it hard to reconcile Cat's perceptiveness after the war with the naive trusting she displayed before the war, that she basically caused to begin (it would have almost certainly happened anyway but her actions decided it happened when it did).

First of all, let's be fair to Catelyn. She hadn't seen Littlefinger since the day he dueled Brandon (so yes, it was a little dumb to trust him as much as she did) but Lysa is a different story.

Apparently, the last time Catelyn saw and spoke with Lysa personally was six years ago and Lysa had apparently undergone a huge change over that time period. What started that change was Littlefinger's arrival to court at Jon Arryn's request. Lysa would never talk to Catelyn about her childbearing struggles which, as we know, poisoned her personality and made her into the vain, stubborn, unstable woman that she was. Tyrion said himself that Lysa Arryn that he watched Lysa change right before his eyes from a timid woman to a nutjob.

Ultimately, Catelyn and Ned are two peas in a pod because both of them, for all of their intelligence and experience, are naive in thinking that people improve with age and that strong relationships and bonds with people never weaken over time. Classic case of good people falsely believing that there are more good people in the world than bad people and projecting that.

Sansa is truly their daughter.

On another note, blaming Catelyn for starting the war is and has always been ludicrous. The war started when Tywin Lannister had his soldiers disguise themselves as outlaws before sending them out to rob, rape, maim and murder civilians in the Riverlands.

That's like if I was to call the cops on your son for mistakenly believing he had committed a crime against my family and your response is to set my high school and the surrounding neighborhood on fire...

It's not only a war crime, it's a very bewildering overreaction. Somewhere between monstrous and childish.

On 6/29/2021 at 3:09 PM, Buried Treasure said:

This is 100% on Stannis.

 

Stannis had not declared. Robb was waiting on a letter from Stannis, expecting that he would declare, which would have allowed Robb to back Robert's oldest living brother against Robert's son, but Renly had too weak a claim for Robb to back.

 

If Stannis had gotten his ass in gear and actually declared himself King Stannis, that would have surely been the answer Robb was looking for.

This is true.

Stannis dropped the ball and made several critical errors early on that he has never recovered from. As a matter of fact, I don't believe Stannis will ever recover from those mistakes. One of them being his departure from King's Landing and refusal to respond to Ned Stark's calls.

 

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9 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

Killing Jinglebell was the right thing to do in a way.

She had taken him hostage and was willing to do a hostage exchange: Jinglebell for Robb. Walder Frey declined and allowed Robb to be killed anyway. Thus, the life of the Frey hostage in Catelyn's custody was forfeit.

Well... I still think it was an act of utter despair rather than anything else. 

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On 7/5/2021 at 8:26 PM, Hugorfonics said:

The triggering of the war was when Tywin sent Gregor to the Riverlands. Did Tyrions abduction convince Tywin, sure! But thats not the only reason. Lady, Neds Job, Dragonspawn, Kingslayer. The war is on the horizon no matter what, which means Arya and Sansa are in danger no matter what, bottom line, you take the free chip. I mean, if both Tyrion and Jamie were in Robbs custody Tywin probably would have sued for peace.

It was the start of the war when Tywin sent Gregor to the Riverlands. Of course, I don't blame Catelyn for single-handedly triggering a war or anything like that. What she did escalated the conflict. 

On 7/5/2021 at 8:26 PM, Hugorfonics said:

I dont believe Catelyn wanted a rushed trial, nor did she want Tyrion to die in the sky cells. This was the work of Lysa who knew damn well that she was helping pit Stark against Lannister and its Iron Throne.

Lysa has much to answer for. Unfortunately, taking Tyrion to Lysa's home meant leaving her largely to Lysa's mercy. 

On 7/5/2021 at 8:26 PM, Hugorfonics said:

Ok, if the mission was prevent war, she failed. But if the mission was to find justice for Bran, well she failed that too, but certainly not for lack of trying.

I can agree on that! :cheers:

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7 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

On another note, blaming Catelyn for starting the war is and has always been ludicrous. The war started when Tywin Lannister had his soldiers disguise themselves as outlaws before sending them out to rob, rape, maim and murder civilians in the Riverlands.

Nah, it can reasonably be assumed one great house taking captive by force the son of another great house could start a war. Only a dedicated Cetelyn apologist is going to see it otherwise.

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32 minutes ago, chrisdaw said:

Nah, it can reasonably be assumed one great house taking captive by force the son of another great house could start a war. Only a dedicated Cetelyn apologist is going to see it otherwise.

Even if you think said son tried to kill your son? That sounds unbelievable to me. It's not like she was wrong that it was the Lannisters. She just had the wrong brother. And it's not like major doubt on Tyrion's guilt was cast before she arrested him.

At least Cat only took Tyrion. Unlike the Lannisters and their drama queen overreactions where they punish an entire kingdom of smallfolk for way less offenses.

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1 hour ago, Julia H. said:

It was the start of the war when Tywin sent Gregor to the Riverlands. Of course, I don't blame Catelyn for single-handedly triggering a war or anything like that. What she did escalated the conflict. 

For sure

1 hour ago, Julia H. said:

Lysa has much to answer for.

Well if she ever lands she can get questioned, but if shes anything like her sister she wont say much 

1 hour ago, Julia H. said:

I can agree on that! :cheers:

:cheers:

 

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13 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

Nah, it can reasonably be assumed one great house taking captive by force the son of another great house could start a war. Only a dedicated Cetelyn apologist is going to see it otherwise.

What is she supposed to do? Not arrest a suspected criminal? Tell the king?

What is telling the king going to do? If, and I mean, only if Robert can be pressed to do anything contrary to Cersei (i.e. the Lady situation), it can reasonably be assumed that the king taking the son of another house captive by force could start a war too.

If Robert has Tyrion arrested and tried, do you think Tywin is not going to cause problems.

The bigger problem is that there is no concrete system of justice and law in Westeros that holds the great houses and other powerful lords accountable.

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58 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

What is she supposed to do? Not arrest a suspected criminal? Tell the king?

Yes, clearly if she suspected a criminal who is the son of a great lord the proper thing to do is tell the king.

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What is telling the king going to do? If, and I mean, only if Robert can be pressed to do anything contrary to Cersei (i.e. the Lady situation), it can reasonably be assumed that the king taking the son of another house captive by force could start a war too.

Justice. 

This is how Robert's Rebelion began, I do not think the parallel is a coincidence.

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If Robert has Tyrion arrested and tried, do you think Tywin is not going to cause problems.

Tywin clearly didn't have a problem throwing Tyrion under the bus when it suited him.

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The bigger problem is that there is no concrete system of justice and law in Westeros that holds the great houses and other powerful lords accountable.

Ya, sure... but it's clear that there was a right way to handle the situation and Cat didn't do that.

13 hours ago, Mystical said:

Even if you think said son tried to kill your son? That sounds unbelievable to me.

Yes! This is literally highlighted over and over as the difference between justice and vengeance. Same reason today you aren't aloud to go out and arrest someone you accuse of doing you wrong. And if you do you have to take them to authorities not your sister.

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It's not like she was wrong that it was the Lannisters. She just had the wrong brother. And it's not like major doubt on Tyrion's guilt was cast before she arrested him.

Blaming someone for the sins of their family is another major theme of the series, and also clearly wrong.

It is wrong to run around abducting people you decide might be guilty.

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At least Cat only took Tyrion. Unlike the Lannisters and their drama queen overreactions where they punish an entire kingdom of smallfolk for way less offenses.

Robb goes to war over his father, same shit tbh.

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59 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

Yes, clearly if she suspected a criminal who is the son of a great lord the proper thing to do is tell the king.

Justice. 

This is how Robert's Rebelion began, I do not think the parallel is a coincidence.

Tywin clearly didn't have a problem throwing Tyrion under the bus when it suited him.

Ya, sure... but it's clear that there was a right way to handle the situation and Cat didn't do that.

Yes! This is literally highlighted over and over as the difference between justice and vengeance. Same reason today you aren't aloud to go out and arrest someone you accuse of doing you wrong. And if you do you have to take them to authorities not your sister.

Blaming someone for the sins of their family is another major theme of the series, and also clearly wrong.

It is wrong to run around abducting people you decide might be guilty.

Robb goes to war over his father, same shit tbh.

How do you obtain justice in a world where there is no police force, no independent judges, and no law courts?  Justice is whatever the local lord says it is.  King Robert is three hundred miles away from The Crossroads Inn.  And, we know what Robert's attitude towards justice is, anyway.  He gloated over the deaths of Elia and her children, and handwaved the murder of Mycah.

You rely on self-help, as Catelyn does.

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46 minutes ago, SeanF said:

How do you obtain justice in a world where there is no police force, no independent judges, and no law courts?  Justice is whatever the local lord says it is.  King Robert is three hundred miles away from The Crossroads Inn.  And, we know what Robert's attitude towards justice is, anyway.  He gloated over the deaths of Elia and her children, and handwaved the murder of Mycah.

You rely on self-help, as Catelyn does.

How do you obtain justice in any world? No system is perfect.

Our systems today are far from paragons of justice. That doesn't mean it's ok to go out and abduct people you think have wronged you. Many standards have changed over time, and it's good to identify them, but it seems more like you are throwing the baby out with the bath water and ignoring some core pillars of what differentiates justice from just vengeance, a core theme of the series.

Not just because people are often wrong, like Cat is, but because it results in more trouble, like Cat's abduction of Tyrion is the fist open act of violence which sets of the war.

One clear difference between justice and vengeance is that it is carried out by a third party.

"Do we have your leave to take our vengeance against Ser Gregor, then?" Marq Piper asked the throne.
"Vengeance?" Ned said. "I thought we were speaking of justice. Burning Clegane's fields and slaughtering his people will not restore the king's peace, only your injured pride."

Even Ned recognizes that what Cat has done is both a crime and wrong. That is why he lies to protect her and says it was on his orders.

The act of abducting Tyrion would be wrong even if Cat was right about him having tried to kill Bran, but she wasn't right, she was clearly wrong, so while we might sympathize with her it is absolutely preposterous to defend her actions as just.

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3 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

Blaming someone for the sins of their family is another major theme of the series, and also clearly wrong.

What does that have to do with anything? Tyrion was a suspect. The end.

3 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

Robb goes to war over his father, same shit tbh.

Again, what does that have to do with anything? Have the goalposts of the topic shifted?

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2 hours ago, Mystical said:

What does that have to do with anything? Tyrion was a suspect. The end.

Not a big fan of innocent until proven guilty, huh? Being a suspect should not be the end of the discussion for anything resembling justice.

The fact that I have to say that is so disappointing.

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Again, what does that have to do with anything?

Cat abducting Tyrion started a war.

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Have the goalposts of the topic shifted?

The Topic is literally, "Catelyn was right about everything", in this case she was wrong. Both in literally her accusation and morally in her actions.

You tell me, have the goalposts shifted?

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3 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

How do you obtain justice in any world? No system is perfect.

Our systems today are far from paragons of justice. That doesn't mean it's ok to go out and abduct people you think have wronged you. Many standards have changed over time, and it's good to identify them, but it seems more like you are throwing the baby out with the bath water and ignoring some core pillars of what differentiates justice from just vengeance, a core theme of the series.

Not just because people are often wrong, like Cat is, but because it results in more trouble, like Cat's abduction of Tyrion is the fist open act of violence which sets of the war.

One clear difference between justice and vengeance is that it is carried out by a third party.

"Do we have your leave to take our vengeance against Ser Gregor, then?" Marq Piper asked the throne.
"Vengeance?" Ned said. "I thought we were speaking of justice. Burning Clegane's fields and slaughtering his people will not restore the king's peace, only your injured pride."

Even Ned recognizes that what Cat has done is both a crime and wrong. That is why he lies to protect her and says it was on his orders.

The act of abducting Tyrion would be wrong even if Cat was right about him having tried to kill Bran, but she wasn't right, she was clearly wrong, so while we might sympathize with her it is absolutely preposterous to defend her actions as just.

You seem to have this odd belief that Westeros is a modern democratic society with a functioning criminal justice system;  that all that Catelyn has to do is report the attempted murder of Bran to the local police force, and they'll take it from there.

I'm afraid it's not like that.  She has to take a decision in a matter of seconds;  arrest Tyrion, or let him go, and then have him tell his family that he met Ned Stark's wife on her way back from the capital, and what would she be doing there?  Jaime and Cersei would grasp that she was investigating their attempt to murder Bran, after he witnessed their incest.

I get that you detest Catelyn as a character, but all you're doing in this thread is holding her to standards that are ridiculous in the world that she inhabits.

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On 7/6/2021 at 3:56 AM, Springwatch said:

She was afraid of the King's Road, remember? Creeping along in disguise. She's not going to go there publicly with Tyrion tied to the back of a horse. She wouldn't even go north on the King's Road.

Tyrion thought the same - word would get to Tywin quickly, and there would be a rescue.

What rescue? The Lannisters are on the other side of Westeros. If anyone tried to rescue Tyrion it would be one of the king's men. If Catelyn wanted to bring him to the King's justice all she needed to do was to let the King's men "capture" him

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4 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

Not a big fan of innocent until proven guilty, huh? Being a suspect should not be the end of the discussion for anything resembling justice.

The fact that I have to say that is so disappointing.

What are you even trying to say? Especially since Tyrion was not only making fine points about his innocence but his trial by combat proved that beyond doubt (in the south of the continent anyway). And Cat let him go.

The fact that people have to point out to you that Westeros doesn't operate like our times with judge and jury and laws is frankly beyond disappointing.

4 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

Cat abducting Tyrion started a war.

You said Robb, Not Cat. Pick one. Or discuss them separately, even though Robb has nothing to do with what we were discussing. This is getting confusing. Do you even know what point you are trying to make?

And no, Cat abducting Tyrion started the razing of the Riverlands by Tywin. Nothing more. The war was started because of the twin fuckers having illegitimate kids and LF wanting his petty revenge on the Houses that 'stole' his girl. And I ask you which came first: a Lannister trying to murder a Stark or a Stark apprehending a Lannister? And by your modern sensibilities regarding Westeros, Tyrion knew who tried to kill Bran and refused to tell anyone. So Tyrion is actually guilty of concealing the identity of an attempted child murderer.

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1 hour ago, Mystical said:

And I ask you which came first: a Lannister trying to murder a Stark or a Stark apprehending a Lannister

No one knew Jaime tried to kill Bran, so a Stark kidnapping a Lannister came first.

1 hour ago, Mystical said:

And by your modern sensibilities regarding Westeros, Tyrion knew who tried to kill Bran and refused to tell anyone. So Tyrion is actually guilty of concealing the identity of an attempted child murderer.

He didnt. He merely had mild suspicions based on nothing.

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6 hours ago, The Hoare said:

He didnt. He merely had mild suspicions based on nothing.

You are supposed to tell the authorities of you suspect someone of murder just as you are someone who actually did murder a person. So the point stands.

6 hours ago, The Hoare said:

No one knew Jaime tried to kill Bran, so a Stark kidnapping a Lannister came first.

But a Lannister did try to kill Bran. Who knows how things would have unfolded if that hadn't happened. Cat and Tyrion might not have run into each other.

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19 hours ago, SeanF said:

You seem to have this odd belief that Westeros is a modern democratic society with a functioning criminal justice system;  that all that Catelyn has to do is report the attempted murder of Bran to the local police force, and they'll take it from there.

why do you think that?

Cat isnt some oppressed peasant, she is on top of the social pyramid and seems to be a proponent of duty and honor.

I’m using her standards, and the standards in the story, certainly not modern ones.

19 hours ago, SeanF said:

I'm afraid it's not like that.  She has to take a decision in a matter of seconds;  arrest Tyrion, or let him go, and then have him tell his family that he met Ned Stark's wife on her way back from the capital, and what would she be doing there?  Jaime and Cersei would grasp that she was investigating their attempt to murder Bran, after he witnessed their incest.

no she didn’t. That’s kind of the point.

She chooses to rush the judgement, and that’s on her.

Obviously she shouldn’t have been there at all, but those mistakes had already been made.

19 hours ago, SeanF said:

I get that you detest Catelyn as a character, but all you're doing in this thread is holding her to standards that are ridiculous in the world that she inhabits.

I’m holding her to the standards of the series.

It’s hysterical to me that anyone could read this story and come away thinking she was never wrong.

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18 hours ago, The Hoare said:

What rescue? The Lannisters are on the other side of Westeros. If anyone tried to rescue Tyrion it would be one of the king's men. If Catelyn wanted to bring him to the King's justice all she needed to do was to let the King's men "capture" him

Even so, both Catelyn and Tyrion expected a rescue. And why not? Delivering Tyrion to the king earns nothing. Delivering him to a father that shits gold is a much more tempting prospect. And the Lannisters aren't locked up in their territory anyway. There are probably Lannister friends and agents all over the place, to keep them informed. They are planning a war, after all.

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[Tyrion] "You said we were riding for Winterfell!" [snip]

[Catelyn] "No doubt your friends will ride that way when they come after us." [snip]

[Tyrion thoughts on this] the memory filled him with bitter rage [snip] Catelyn Stark had outwitted him at every turn.

See? They both expect a rescue.

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