House of the Dragon Filming in Spain in October

[The Wondering Wolf]

7 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said:

The fact that Raenyra based her defense on the Arryn descendancy

I don't think we have ever got information on the way Rhaenyra addressed the looks of her sons - or if she did speak about that, at all. The Arryn descent is something brought up by the fandom, not in world.

[Daeron the Daring]

5 minutes ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

I don't think we have ever got information on the way Rhaenyra addressed the looks of her sons - or if she did speak about that, at all. The Arryn descent is something brought up by the fandom, not in world.

Well, I might be wrong then. Always tought that actually happened. Now I'm not sure. 

[Sotan]

46 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Yep, that’s the one! I’m curious if they’ll do like they did with Myrcella on GOT, and have Jace realize on his own that the rumors are true and Harwin really is his father.

Jace confronting his mother would be a powerful scene. There is also something sweet about the boys being the only ones who don't know. I'm interested to see which direction they take. 

[The Dragon Demands]

48 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I just have a hard time picturing pre-war Alicent running at someone with a knife.

I did too for a minute, but...I think any parent would fly into a rage at seeing that their child had just been permanently maimed, an eye slashed out. The real issue is that it's an out of character moment they chose to feature in a trailer.

[The Dragon Demands]

Harwin COULD be his father, but they may never know.

[Lady Fevre Dream]

1 hour ago, Daeron the Daring said:

No. It's something the royal court knows. But this thing had a significance over the entire realm. We don't know the opinion of any vassal lords who never saw these supposed bastards, yet supported one or the other side of the family. Rhaenys didn't have valyrian features, and Aemma Arryn's are unknown. The fact that Raenyra based her defense on the Arryn descendancy, it makes it likelier that Aemma in fact had 'common' features. People knew the boys aren't Laenor's for many reasons: Laenor being gay, Rhaenyra having an affair with Ser Harwin, and the children looking nothing like their father. But this was a conceivable thing by anyone who didn't know all these things, or didn't believe it for their own reasons. The only people that ever objected about it were the ones that benefited from the 3 brothers being bastards: Alicent (the greens) and the Velaryon family. The point is that is was conceivable. Rhaenyra could've argued ahainst rumours that only included haircolor, but skincolor? Noone can sell that. In this case, Rhaenyra shouldn't even be considering making any kind of excuses, since people wouldn't need to knoe about Harwin or Laenor's sexual oeientation to guess or be convinced the children aren't his. And you and I will probably see how it won't play out well on screen (I can only hope for the opposite), wether they ignore it or make it part of the actual plot. 

These issues is why I do find the idea very messy, the changing of the Velaryon family.  I fear I will find myself too much over thinking it.  The addition of questions on the paternity of Rhaenyra's children, along with the known traits of past, present, and future Targs specifically, and Valyrians generally, give me pause.  Granted, if we have other families of Valyrian ancestry with differing skin colors.......maybe it won't be so, so messy, story line wise, but..........  

I'd like to be wrong, I'd like to just enjoy it, so I'm open to it, but not counting on it.

1 hour ago, Daeron the Daring said:

Also, some of these shots are supposed to take place around 120 AC, but we've seen neither of Alicent's children. Not that they won't be included, but kind of interesting.

But the real question is: Will Vermithor have his unique jaw he has in some FnB portrayals. I would love that. And after all, they have to make diversities between the dragons. There's 17 of them, they can't all be identical. 

HA!  This brings me back to my original post this morning:

WHERE ARE MY DRAGONS??????????  (yeah, yeah, I know, they are somewhere in post production)

I had seen some artistic conceptions, I thought that were show associated, and well, let's just say it worried me.  GOT did pretty good with the dragons, although they did lose a lot of color over the years, it seemed.  Then again, so did everything on that show, it got so dark one couldn't see much of anything.  The dragon bodies and effects, though, were spectacular.  No need to change much, just some color, and, I guess, some interesting jaw set for Vermithor.  I am looking forward to seeing some of the dragons, Caraxes especially.  

[Lady Fevre Dream]

4 hours ago, Sotan said:

I get where you're coming from, I guess that just doesn't bother me. When I watch an adaptation I come into to it expecting changes, as long as the continuity of the story all the way to the main show GOT is kept, I'm good. I also think they look amazing.

If there is one continuity to choose, and one to lose, it's GOT's that I'd have second thoughts on........I'm all for just forgetting lots of their mistakes, like Dany and the Iron Fleet.  Forgetting all of that works for me.  

[Lord Varys]

4 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

GoT Randyll and Dickon would be stormtroopers if GoT was Star Wars. They weren't characters, they were plot devices, bad ones. 

Oh, I nearly forgot about that, I thought more about that silly meeting Sam and Gilly had with the Tarlys are Horn Hill.

I honestly want as little references to GoT as possible, including the depiction of houses that were prominent in GoT.

4 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

Rhaena and Baela will be of mixed heritage still, I think, and Rhaenyra's Velaryon children will still supposedly be Laenor's. 

I guess Baela and Rhaena could be somewhat brownish but they could also pass as whites. They are only Corlys' granddaughters, after all.

[Lord Varys]

Don't you think you guys the Otto and Alicent would have worked much better as black characters? Their bloodline dies out, the Hightowers were not depicted in GoT and them being from Oldtown could mean that Otto's father had a Summer Islander wife. Otto is a younger son of House Hightower, so technically a black mother of his could have been the second or third wife of Lord of Oldtown, meaning it wouldn't have (necessarily) affecting the general coloring of House Hightower.

Then, if one wants to insert modern racist concepts into the show, Viserys I falling in love with a woman who is not ideally suited to be queen (Alicent is just a knight's daughter, not the daughter of a lord) could have been reinforced or reflected by her skin color. Folks - especially in the pure-blooded Targaryens and Velaryons at court - could have looked down on the queen whose grandmother was a foreigner and whose children still looked that way. Something like that could even help explain why Rhaenyra and her half-siblings didn't get along.

Instead we get this weird thing with the Velaryons.

I really wonder who came up with that. Honestly, I think some guy jumped from Corlys Velaryon being this great seafarer and explorer to 'the Summer Islanders are great seafarers, too, let's make the Velaryons black.'

Which is just a silly idea. If there had to be more racial diversity - especially black folks - then there were quite a few ways to do this better.

[Jaenara Belarys]

3 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

Well, I might be wrong then. Always tought that actually happened. Now I'm not sure. 

Rhaenyra didn't say a thing about what her mother looks like. 

1 hour ago, Lady Fevre Dream said:

If there is one continuity to choose, and one to lose, it's GOT's that I'd have second thoughts on........I'm all for just forgetting lots of their mistakes, like Dany and the Iron Fleet.  Forgetting all of that works for me.  

We were supposed to forget about logic and only look for spectacle. 

33 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Don't you think you guys the Otto and Alicent would have worked much better as black characters? Their bloodline dies out, the Hightowers were not depicted in GoT and them being from Oldtown could mean that Otto's father had a Summer Islander wife. Otto is a younger son of House Hightower, so technically a black mother of his could have been the second or third wife of Lord of Oldtown, meaning it wouldn't have (necessarily) affecting the general coloring of House Hightower.

 

Yes...that's much better. Black Valyrians....just look odd to book readers who know what Valyrians look like. 

[Sotan]

2 hours ago, Lady Fevre Dream said:

If there is one continuity to choose, and one to lose, it's GOT's that I'd have second thoughts on........I'm all for just forgetting lots of their mistakes, like Dany and the Iron Fleet.  Forgetting all of that works for me.  

LOL! Fair enough. 

[The Dragon Demands]

Presence of Tarlys is a point of evidence that they might not cut Daeron the Daring’s Reach subplot.

[The Grey Wolf Strikes Back]

14 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Don't you think you guys the Otto and Alicent would have worked much better as black characters? Their bloodline dies out, the Hightowers were not depicted in GoT and them being from Oldtown could mean that Otto's father had a Summer Islander wife. Otto is a younger son of House Hightower, so technically a black mother of his could have been the second or third wife of Lord of Oldtown, meaning it wouldn't have (necessarily) affecting the general coloring of House Hightower.

Then, if one wants to insert modern racist concepts into the show, Viserys I falling in love with a woman who is not ideally suited to be queen (Alicent is just a knight's daughter, not the daughter of a lord) could have been reinforced or reflected by her skin color. Folks - especially in the pure-blooded Targaryens and Velaryons at court - could have looked down on the queen whose grandmother was a foreigner and whose children still looked that way. Something like that could even help explain why Rhaenyra and her half-siblings didn't get along.

That would have been so much better.

[StarksInTheNorth]

18 hours ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

I don't think we have ever got information on the way Rhaenyra addressed the looks of her sons - or if she did speak about that, at all. The Arryn descent is something brought up by the fandom, not in world.

My understanding has always been that she and the blacks never tried to explain it. Even the offering of an explanation makes it look suspect. If Laenor said they were his, then they were. Corlys and Rhaenys' behavior regarding the children seems to support this, as well. It's not like the Westerosi have any understanding of Mendelian genetics to back this up.

14 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Don't you think you guys the Otto and Alicent would have worked much better as black characters? Their bloodline dies out, the Hightowers were not depicted in GoT and them being from Oldtown could mean that Otto's father had a Summer Islander wife. Otto is a younger son of House Hightower, so technically a black mother of his could have been the second or third wife of Lord of Oldtown, meaning it wouldn't have (necessarily) affecting the general coloring of House Hightower.

Then, if one wants to insert modern racist concepts into the show, Viserys I falling in love with a woman who is not ideally suited to be queen (Alicent is just a knight's daughter, not the daughter of a lord) could have been reinforced or reflected by her skin color. Folks - especially in the pure-blooded Targaryens and Velaryons at court - could have looked down on the queen whose grandmother was a foreigner and whose children still looked that way. Something like that could even help explain why Rhaenyra and her half-siblings didn't get along.

See, that's the thing. I'm not a POC, but I have heard from friends that they're over the diversity and representation always being on the outs and being the trod upon characters. From my perspective as a woman, I can also emphasize with wanting to see more nuanced and non-usual portrayals of female characters. So the feeling that we should have more different, nuanced, and non-usual portrayals of POC characters also makes sense. And here, it's a huge deviation from usual portrayals to have an entire badass, wealthy family be Black. Generally in fantasy shows, viewers don't see that portrayal frequently (unless it's colorblind casting).

Plus, it seems from what I've read / seen so far that Daemon and Rhaenyra are going to be the protagonists of the show (somewhat in the style of the Starks in AGOT) so making their enemies the downtrodden/frowned-upon Black characters probably wouldn't go great for the sympathy vote.

Although this also brings into question race anyway, since the POC in AGOT and HOTD will both be on the side of the female aggressor (Daenerys, Rhaenyra) and then end up also being the losing side.

[Lord Varys]

1 minute ago, StarksInTheNorth said:

See, that's the thing. I'm not a POC, but I have heard from friends that they're over the diversity and representation always being on the outs and being the trod upon characters. From my perspective as a woman, I can also emphasize with wanting to see more nuanced and non-usual portrayals of female characters. So the feeling that we should have more different, nuanced, and non-usual portrayals of POC characters also makes sense. And here, it's a huge deviation from usual portrayals to have an entire badass, wealthy family be Black. Generally in fantasy shows, viewers don't see that portrayal frequently (unless it's colorblind casting).

The Velaryons aren't very nuanced characters, nor are they non-usual. Or rather: They are worse in this regard than black Hightowers would be. Laenor Velaryon is an effeminate, clichéd homosexual in FaB, and Laena Velaryon is essentially just a baby machine dying in childbirth. Neither is a very developed character. They certainly can seem to develop them more in the show, as the prominence of Laenor in the teaser seems to imply, but that has then nothing to do with the source material. In the source material they are either clichés or effectively non-existent. That's even worse for Princess Rhaenys who literally only shows up in FaB for her death scene. Before that, she has a couple of explanatory lines in a council session, and we get the story how she was passed over in the succession. But we have no idea who she is as a person or what she did for most of her life.

Corlys Velaryon is the only proper Velaryon character we get ... and he was badass in his younger days. During the Dance he is an old, done man who constantly wants everyone to make peace by marrying Aegon the Younger to Jaehaera (which is a weird match in any case).

Vice versa, Otto and Alicent Hightower and their children are real main characters in this story. After all, if they were black then we would actually get black Targaryens with Aegon II, Helaena, Aemond, and Daeron. And while you could present Otto and Alicent as one-dimensional villains - you don't have to do this. You should not, actually, because that would make the story stupid and boring as hell. They have to be both good and bad.

The Velaryons are secondary characters at best. Black Hightowers could be heroes and villains and everything in between. Much more nuance than anything you can expect from the Velaryons whose role will inevitably shrink as the story advances since Laena and Laenor will die. And Rhaenys, too.

Similarly, you could have had black Strongs or a black Criston Cole. This guy is a real badass and could be a very nuanced multi-layered character if written and developed properly.

1 minute ago, StarksInTheNorth said:

Plus, it seems from what I've read / seen so far that Daemon and Rhaenyra are going to be the protagonists of the show (somewhat in the style of the Starks in AGOT) so making their enemies the downtrodden/frowned-upon Black characters probably wouldn't go great for the sympathy vote.

Rhaenyra and Daemon seem to be core characters, but they cannot be proper heroes because, unless they completely change them, they are not heroes. Daemon is a cruel sadist driven by ambition and pride, and Rhaenyra is a spoiled and haughty princess. She is no monster, but an accurate depiction of her wouldn't paint her as a future queen you look forward to being ruled by ... even if you agree she is the rightful heir.

The bottom line is that there aren't any sympathetic characters in the royal family of this era, aside from, perhaps, Viserys I (who is a nice guy) and some of the children we won't see much of in the first season.

1 minute ago, StarksInTheNorth said:

Although this also brings into question race anyway, since the POC in AGOT and HOTD will both be on the side of the female aggressor (Daenerys, Rhaenyra) and then end up also being the losing side.

The Blacks do not lose the war as such. Rhaenyra dies, but her son Aegon III is king after her, and ends up being married to Corlys' great-grandniece, so the setting isn't as shitty as GoT.

[The Grey Wolf Strikes Back]

@StarkInTheNorth

Only if they make the Greens out-and-out villains. Personally, I'd prefer one of three directions:

1) Everyone is the a**hole they are in canon but the story focuses on sympathetic minor characters like Addam Velaryon such that it becomes a tale about good people on both sides dying to put two spoiled brats on the throne

2) Everyone starts out being reasonable and honorable but as the war progresses the characters become more bestial, with, for example, Aegon II's spiteful and hedonistic personality being the end result of the story rather than who he is from beginning to end

3) Everyone gets new arcs wherein the tragedy becomes a family full of potential tearing itself apart instead of coming together
For example, Daeron's could be about learning to become more assertive with regards to keeping the war chivalrous, his behavior at Bitterbridge thus becoming a catalyst for character development (To elaborate, they could have Daeron only set fire to the Hog's Head but from there the flames spread out of control, leaving him feeling very guilty about unintentionally burning down the entire town)
Another idea I'm rather fond of is Aegon II becoming both a parallel and inversion of Aegon III, broken in body but not in spirit, such that he learns from his mistakes and actually tries to do better than before (For instance, when he captures Rhaenyra on Dragonstone he could at least make a reasonable offer (Marry him now that they've both lost their spouses, marry Aegon the Younger to Jaehaera and both of them abdicate so that said children could start their joint-reign with a clean slate, etc.) before then executing her when she inevitably refuses)

[The Bard of Banefort]

Like I said before, the entertainment industry is scared of its own shadow. . . there’s no way they would make the Black family the villains of this show. The production apparatus behind all of these networks is still overwhelming white, and nothing scares them more than the possibility that someone will accuse them of being racist. 
 

I disagree that the Velaryon’s are underwritten though. Maybe Laena and Laenor are, but Corlys, Addam, and Alyn are all full-fledged characters.

[The Bard of Banefort]

Oh, and Rhaena and Baela. Didn’t mean to forget them.

[Lord Varys]

21 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I disagree that the Velaryon’s are underwritten though. Maybe Laena and Laenor are, but Corlys, Addam, and Alyn are all full-fledged characters.

Corlys still isn't a nuanced or complex character. He has a lot of screentime, but he isn't very developed. I mean, do we know why he and Rhaenys even support Rhaenyra? No, we do not.

Addam is a hero, and Alyn becomes of three-dimensional in the Regency material, but he doesn't do anything of note during the Dance.

And so far neither Addam or Alyn have been cast. I expect them to show up eventually, of course, but not in season 1.

 

[Sotan]

2 hours ago, StarksInTheNorth said:

My understanding has always been that she and the blacks never tried to explain it. Even the offering of an explanation makes it look suspect. If Laenor said they were his, then they were. Corlys and Rhaenys' behavior regarding the children seems to support this, as well. It's not like the Westerosi have any understanding of Mendelian genetics to back this up.

This is an excellent point. Maybe Westerosi legal minds can help me out here, but if the children were born in wedlock and Rhaenyra's husband has claimed them as his and given them his name, aren't they legitimate, legally speaking?