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7 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

I don't think anyone has to point out the reasons why Robert Baratheon didn't take up the Targaryen name.

He and his buddies still justified him becoming king with his Targaryen ancestry. Which means Robert is pretty much a Targaryen in the same way as Laenor is. Even more so, if Orys Baratheon was actually Aerion's son, because that would mean the Baratheons as a whole are an illegitimate male branch of House Targaryen.

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I wonder why he couldn't elect his wife/children as Jaehaerys' heir. Not even with bribing anyone he could.

Because folks apparently preferred male line succession. And because Laenor was a young boy and Viserys a grown man.

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The Velaryons on the other hand weren't oneat all, which isn't better. Everyone would've been more satisfied with Jace calling himself Jacaerys Targaryen, except for Corlys, maybe. It's not like he wouldn't have won 'the game' anyway. Corlys might have known by the time of their birth that the children aren't Laenor's. Rumours started to spread immediately. If not anything else, everyone knew by the time of Lucerys' birth that neither is he the son of Laenor. Yet Corlys wanted to give them the somewhat most popular Velaryon names. If he weren't siding with Rhaenyra, none of the 3 would've inherited Driftmark. That could be a reason. 

As I said - the issue is not so much with Rhaenyra's sons but also with Laena and Laenor. If Corlys' children had been called 'Targaryen' since their birth to reinforce the fact that they were the true heirs to the Iron Throne then Laenor Targaryen would have challenged Viserys Targaryen in 101 AC, Laena Targaryen would have been spurned by Viserys I in 106 AC, and Laenor Targaryen would have married Rhaenyra Targaryen in 113 AC ... and subsequently Laenor Targaryen's children would have been named Targaryen, just as Daemon Targaryen's children Laena Velaryon and by Rhaenyra Targaryen later were.

That Lucerys or Joffrey might later go with the name Velaryon if they succeed to Driftmark makes sense. But then they could just change their name to Velaryon, no?

In fact, it actually makes no sense that Laena and Laenor don't go by their mother's name. Rhaenys and Corlys want the Iron Throne for themselves or their children. That's their agenda from 92 AC onwards. The Targaryen name could have helped with that, and while Corlys was still around his heirs would not have to call themselves Velaryon if they actually were after a much bigger price.

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And it's not like the factions weren't drawn out already, as you sometimes say. Corlys' actual (and only) grandchildren were Baela and Rhaena, Daemon's daughters. They were bethroted to his alleged grandchildren, Jacaerys and Lucerys, whom he defended when the Silent Five's incident happened. Daemon and Otto hated each other since the 100's, and he hated his nephews for pushing him further away on the line. On the other hand, he was friends with Corlys, and his ex son-in-law. 

Yes, yes, the betrothals could have played a role. But in the text as given this is not mentioned. Rhaenyra is more than fond of Laena and that leads to the betrothals. Nobody mentions that Rhaenyra wants or has to suck up to Corlys and Rhaenys because of the rumors about the parentage of her sons and feels the need to marry the boys to Laena's daughters for that reason.

If you think about it - Corlys Velaryon wasn't even in any need to name or keep Laenor as his heir. When Daeron married Myriah Martell, she was disinherited as heiress of Dorne in favor of her younger brother, just as Doran Martell intended to give Dorne to Quentyn when he betrothed Arianne to Viserys since that would make her the queen consort of Westeros one day.

As Rhaenyra's husband, Laenor Velaryon would be the prince consort or king consort at her side. It may no longer be suitable for him to also succeed his father as Lord of Driftmark. Meaning Corlys could have made Laena and her descendants his heirs - after all, the Prince of Dorne did apparently also not view Myriah's sons by Daeron II as his heirs, no?

The point why the Velaryons are kind of weirdly underdeveloped is that we don't really know how they felt about the issue of Rhaenyra/Laenor's children, Rhaenyra as a future queen, and Daemon's alleged involvement in the murder of Laenor.

George didn't really properly describe this. I mean, would Ned support, say, Stannis, if there were rumors floating around Selyse had paid a guy to murder Bran? The very suspicion that the Lannisters tried to murder Bran and did murder Jon Arryn plays a huge role in the war between the Lannisters and Starks.

But Corlys Velaryon is very close with the wife of the man who may have orchestrated the murder of his own son? That's certainly not completely impossible, but it is one of those things that should actually be addressed. The author should offer an explanation for something like that.

8 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

This really seems to depend on what's the most beneficiary. As you said, a son (or daughter) of Daemon Targaryen and Rhea Royce would be a male-line descendant of the most powerful dynasty, the Targaryens. Which would allow them to have dragons, whereas remaining Royces would not benefit them this much. The reason people may seem to do this may be that the name gives influence, credibility, stability and legitimacy, but being a Targaryen would still be more beneficial. 

This kind of thing just shows that George didn't really bother thinking things through. He gives us a very patriarchal world on so many levels ... and then he wants us to buy the idea that the names of dynasties and noble houses do not follow patriarchal norms? That just doesn't make much sense. Children take the names of their fathers in this world, and that would also be the case when a man marries an heiress. Her children would go by the name of her husband, because men give their names to their children.

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8 minutes ago, The Dragon Demands said:

Spain-based fan @_JeynePoole_ was in Caceres and...basically took selfies with the entire cast and crew, including the showrunners:
 

...you just have to walk up and ask? Really? That's all it takes?!

 

I guess they don’t really have to worry about spoilers, since we already know how the story ends.

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On 10/6/2021 at 5:42 PM, The Bard of Banefort said:

I think they’ll try to make him an antihero. GRRM clearly believes he’s a grey character, so I think they’ll take their cue from him (although I’ve always wondered what exactly Daemon’s good deeds were lol. I guess he raised four great kids?)

You're right Daemon did raise great kids! As for good deeds, I'm drawing a blank lol. I think they'll keep his dark nature, but make him charming and charismatic. I could also see them writing Daemon as a bastard to those not in his inner circle, vicious and unfair, giving everyone outside his circle legitimate fears of what he might do when he's king consort; but at the same time fiercely loyal and protective-a ride or die for those he cares about. If that's the case, I doubt they will make him Laenor's murderer and the "heir for a day" line could be a fabrication used to hurt him.

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33 minutes ago, The Dragon Demands said:

He made the gold cloaks.

He did, but they came off like his own personal army who behaved like thugs beating up smallfolk. Its quite possible I made all that up LOL. That's the impression I got. 

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10 hours ago, Sotan said:

He did, but they came off like his own personal army who behaved like thugs beating up smallfolk. Its quite possible I made all that up LOL. That's the impression I got. 

I mean, they did make the amount of crime decrease......questionable methods (in modern times, which this is not) but it worked. 

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38 minutes ago, The Dragon Demands said:

I'm starting to worry about Daeron the Daring AND Joffrey Velaryon again. We haven't seen them in spy photos.

Casting is impossible to tell - we have some child actors attached, but how do we know they're not the younger versions of Aegon II or Jacerys Velaryon?

The fact that they kept both Baela and Rhaena makes me confident about them staying close to the source material, at least at the start. If they got rid of Daeron, they’d be cutting the number of battles in half. Daeron was the only Green with any real victories. There’d be no conflict without that.

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3 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

The fact that they kept both Baela and Rhaena makes me confident about them staying close to the source material, at least at the start. If they got rid of Daeron, they’d be cutting the number of battles in half. Daeron was the only Green with any real victories. There’d be no conflict without that.

I agree, the fact that The Dragon Twins made is good news for Daeron. He's also the most likable of the Hightower/Targ sons and his eventual downfall is reminiscent of Dany's in the show, only it isn't as jarring. 

 

4 hours ago, The Dragon Demands said:

I'm starting to worry about Daeron the Daring AND Joffrey Velaryon again. We haven't seen them in spy photos.

As for Joffery, only his name and the circumstances around his naming is the most memorable thing about him. But since Joffery Lonmoth has been confirmed, they gotta give us his namesake.

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38 minutes ago, The Grey Wolf Strikes Back said:

I got the impression that Daemon organized crime in the city by turning the Watch into his own personal protection racket so you're not alone.

Thank You! Although I wasn't thinking that exactly, I felt he was using the gold cloaks as his own personal army.

38 minutes ago, The Grey Wolf Strikes Back said:

The only good thing Daemon Targaryen ever did was raise decent children. (Baela was unnecessarily mean to Marston Waters though.)

Daemon and were Rhaenyra are awful but all of their children turned out decent. Aegon III and Viserys II could've taken out their trauma out on the world-they certainly had the power to, but they didn't. 

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6 minutes ago, The Grey Wolf Strikes Back said:

A horrible parent unfortunately.

Aegon was a brute from his toddler years, apparently. Can't fault Viserys for that. Naerys and the Dragonknight turned out very well, OTOH, so I think a .667 batting average speaks decently well.

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@Ran

@The Bard of Banefort

I'm referring to the Aegon-Naerys match, which he absolutely arranged, and the Baelor-Daena match, which he probably had a hand in to some degree. Furthermore, he failed to reign in Aegon IV or permanently sideline him once it became apparent Aegon IV was set in his ways. Finally, for a guy all about duty, refusing to remarry and sire more children is pretty egregious. Then again, kings and princes being lifelong widowers in general makes little sense.

P.S. Aegon IV being a brute from infancy is what I mean when I say GRRM's histories flanderize characters.

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8 minutes ago, The Grey Wolf Strikes Back said:

@Ran

@The Bard of Banefort

I'm referring to the Aegon-Naerys match, which he absolutely arranged, and the Baelor-Daena match, which he probably had a hand in to some degree. Furthermore, he failed to reign in Aegon IV or permanently sideline him once it became apparent Aegon IV was set in his ways. Finally, for a guy all about duty, refusing to remarry and sire more children is pretty egregious. Then again, kings and princes being lifelong widowers in general makes little sense.

P.S. Aegon IV being a brute from infancy is what I mean when I say GRRM's histories flanderize characters.

Viserys’ wife left him; they were still technically married. We don’t know if he outlived her or not.

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29 minutes ago, The Grey Wolf Strikes Back said:

@Ran

@The Bard of Banefort

I'm referring to the Aegon-Naerys match, which he absolutely arranged,

It was an appropriate match. Leaving the potential future heir of the throne should something befall his brother's sons without a Targaryen bride for many years because of the youth of his cousins made no sense.

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and the Baelor-Daena match,

We're talking about his role as a father, not as a Hand.

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which he probably had a hand in to some degree.

I wouldn't assume so. Daeron appears to have had the upper hand, and as he passed on marrying Daena, it had to fall on Baelor.

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Furthermore, he failed to reign in Aegon IV

We've no evidence of this. Who knows whether things might have been even worse than they ended up?

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or permanently sideline him

People don't "permanently sideline" their sons, generally. IF they do, that's by definition being a horrible father. 

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Finally, for a guy all about duty, refusing to remarry and sire more children is pretty egregious.

The realm had plenty of heirs through much of it. It's the same as this Tywin thing people sometimes bring up. 

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Then again, kings and princes being lifelong widowers in general makes little sense.

Sure. Philip IV no doubt had his reasons for refusing to consider remarriage after his beloved Joan died. And Joseph II. And Victoria...

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