House of the Dragon Filming in Spain in October

[Lord Varys]

2 minutes ago, Ran said:

It was an appropriate match. Leaving the potential future heir of the throne should something befall his brother's sons without a Targaryen bride for many years because of the youth of his cousins made no sense.

The issue isn't that Aegon got a wife, the issue is that Viserys forced his daughter to marry the brother she wasn't into - at best this was a recipe for a personal disaster within the family, at the worst a crucial piece in a future dynastic struggle - which it was.

If Aegon had married some other woman and the Naerys the Dragonknight - or nobody at all - all would have been fine.

And it is not that there weren't enough Targaryen women around for Aegon to marry. Aegon III had three daughters, Rhaena had six daughters, Baela had at least one daughter, possibly more.

That said - Viserys seems to have nothing to do with Aegon's shitty personality. But he failed molding him into a decent human being, dutiful son, and competent king. King Baelor and Viserys should have cut Aegon out of the succession in favor of Daeron II some time in the 160s. He was a completely rotten apple.

2 minutes ago, Ran said:

I wouldn't assume so. Daeron appears to have had the upper hand, and as he passed on marrying Daena, it had to fall on Baelor.

We don't know that Daeron passed on marrying Daena. We don't know who arranged the Baelor-Daena match - it could have been Aegon III or Daeron I. Since Viserys was Hand under both kings, presumably already when the match was arranged, he would share part of the blame for this ill-made match which clearly was as misguided as Aegon-Naerys.

And while we can tentatively accept that Viserys was allowed to arrange a match for his children before the king's children married - because Aegon was much older than Aegon III's eldest children - the Baelor-Daena match is just odd. Daeron I should continue the royal bloodline, not his pious younger brother, and Targaryen tradition has the eldest daughter marry the eldest brother, not the younger brother. That is why Aegon was expected to marry Visenya rather than Rhaenys.

The idea that neither Aegon III nor Viserys would have thought that Daena was the ideal bride for Daeron I is very odd. They seem to have been a perfect match.

16 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Viserys’ wife left him; they were still technically married. We don’t know if he outlived her or not.

Larra Rogare apparently died in 145 AC in Lys. This isn't canon yet, but it is very likely to turn out to be accurate.

Viserys certainly also should have remarried when it became clear that Aegon and Naerys were having trouble producing more than one living heir. Aemon cut himself out of the gene pool, and as soon as it had become clear that Viserys' branch of the family would have to shoulder the burden of continuing the dynasty - which was already clear when Baelor annulled his marriage and took his septon's vows - it would have been his duty to produce further spares in case Aegon or Daeron died prematurely. We have both Daeron I and Baelor I die early. If Daeron II had died as a toddler or as a preteen boy, the Targaryens would have been in big trouble even if Aegon and Naerys had eventually produced Daenerys.

They would have to turn to female heirs again, meaning the claim of Daenerys could have been challenged not only by the daughters of Aegon III and their children but also by Baela and Rhaena and their children and grandchildren. It would have been a complete mess.

[The Grey Wolf Strikes Back]

@Ran

Anyone could see Aegon IV and Naerys were incompatible. If Viserys II had actually cared about his children he would have wed Naerys to Aemon or allowed Naerys to become a Septa. After all the dragons died out marrying into other great houses only became more important, not less. As for heirs and second spouses, I find your arguments lackluster. Four sons between two brothers, one of them sworn to celibacy, is not "plenty of heirs". (The direct line of the House of Capet and Valois both died out when three sons in a row failed to have living sons of their own to succeed them.) Furthermore, there are always exceptions so Philip IV being a lifelong widower doesn't address my broader point, which was that many kings and princes did not stay widowers unlike the Targaryens. To give one counterexample, Edward I was a widower for nine years before marrying his second wife. (Incidentally, Philip IV was also nine years a widower when he died.) I understand why GRRM simplified the genealogy but that doesn't change the fact that it was simplified. Oh, and if your child, regardless of how you raised him or her, turns out to be as shitty as Aegon IV, it is your duty as a good, responsible parent to make sure he never, ever has the power to hurt his siblings or anyone else. Viserys II did neither of those things. If anything, he enabled and empowered Aegon IV. First, by making Naerys his wife and second, by never making Aegon suffer any meaningful consequences for his actions. He sleeps with Falena? Marry her to Lothston and give them Harrenhal. He sleeps with Megette? Send her back to her husband. He sleeps with Casella, a bloody hostage from a newly-conquered state, and what happens? Nothing. To summarize, Viserys II was the Tywin of his house. A man who was as brilliant a Hand as he was a terrible father. (In fact, given what F & B V1 revealed of Jaehaerys I's character, the comparison of Viserys II to him by Yandel makes even more sense now sadly.)

@The Bard of Banefort

Lara died at the age of 30 and she was 7 years older than him. Viserys had plenty of time.

[The Bard of Banefort]

I still think the greatest troll would be for it to turn out that Aemon was gay. Because it really doesn’t make sense that Viserys would allow him to join the Kingsguard, when you think about it, and I doubt Aegon would have accepted him without his brother’s approval.

[Lord Varys]

9 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I still think the greatest troll would be for it to turn out that Aemon was gay. Because it really doesn’t make sense that Viserys would allow him to join the Kingsguard, when you think about it, and I doubt Aegon would have accepted him without his brother’s approval.

The story how that happened has to be told, just as the story of the marriage. The role of Aegon III cannot be ignored in all that. If he hadn't approved of/permitted the match, there wouldn't have been a marriage, just as Aemon wouldn't have joined the KG if the king had refused to accept him.

But I think we would have to assume that Viserys had no issue with Aemon joining the KG, or else his relationship with his royal brother would have deteriorated when Aegon III decided to accept Aemon's request to join the KG. But this didn't happen, apparently. If Viserys had been really angry, he may have even resigned as Hand, had refused to work with Aegon's sons later on, etc.

As for the remarriage issue:

The problem with Viserys II and Maekar not remarrying is that both are widowers (apparently) when they take the throne. And that means they would be kings lacking queens, which is usually a no-go in medieval societies. It is one thing for an aging king who is widowed in the last decade or so of his reign to not remarry if the succession is crystal clear. But a king lacking a queen consort doing the entire queen consort stuff is very odd.

George better keep both Daenaera Velaryon and Aelinor Penrose alive to do queenly things as dowager queens, if he isn't permitting Viserys and Maekar proper queens.

But frankly, it is a joke to have widower kings unless they have very good reasons to not remarry. And that's not the case for either Viserys II or Maekar. Viserys II had just one son who could succeed him and only one grandson at the time of his ascension, and Maekar was down to three sons to of which were failures/dangers and no grandchildren in 221 AC.

[The Bard of Banefort]

4 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

The story how that happened has to be told, just as the story of the marriage. The role of Aegon III cannot be ignored in all that. If he hadn't approved of/permitted the match, there wouldn't have been a marriage, just as Aemon wouldn't have joined the KG if the king had refused to accept him.

But I think we would have to assume that Viserys had no issue with Aemon joining the KG, or else his relationship with his royal brother would have deteriorated when Aegon III decided to accept Aemon's request to join the KG. But this didn't happen, apparently. If Viserys had been really angry, he may have even resigned as Hand, had refused to work with Aegon's sons later on, etc.

Yeah, that's why I think there's something odd about Aemon joining the kingsguard. Viserys was adamant that his other two children marry, and I don't think Aegon would have taken Aemon on without Viserys' approval. Plus, Aemon still had two unwed female cousins. Maybe it's one of those shouldn't-Rhaenys-have-married-Viserys I situations where it just needed to happen for story purposes, but I can't see Viserys permitting his son to join the kingsguard just because he was hung up on Naerys.

4 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

As for the remarriage issue:

The problem with Viserys II and Maekar not remarrying is that both are widowers (apparently) when they take the throne. And that means they would be kings lacking queens, which is usually a no-go in medieval societies. It is one thing for an aging king who is widowed in the last decade or so of his reign to not remarry if the succession is crystal clear. But a king lacking a queen consort doing the entire queen consort stuff is very odd.

George better keep both Daenaera Velaryon and Aelinor Penrose alive to do queenly things as dowager queens, if he isn't permitting Viserys and Maekar proper queens.

But frankly, it is a joke to have widower kings unless they have very good reasons to not remarry. And that's not the case for either Viserys II or Maekar. Viserys II had just one son who could succeed him and only one grandson at the time of his ascension, and Maekar was down to three sons to of which were failures/dangers and no grandchildren in 221 AC.

I suppose GRRM could change the story by having one or both of them have a childless second marriage in future stories, since he already made a similar change by giving Rhaena a third husband in F&B. 

If they don't remarry, perhaps one of their daughters will take on the role of a queen in their mothers' place (without being crowned, of course). I don't know if that was common in monarchies, but there were a number of widowed/unwed presidents who appointed their daughter or niece to act as First Lady while in office (Jefferson, Jackson, James Buchanan). I could see GRRM doing something similar with Naerys or Daella/Rhae.  

[Sotan]

This is a question that's always bothered me, does anyone know why Laenor and Laena were allowed dragons? I don't think the text specifically states it (if so I forgot). Considering how worried Jaehaerys I was about his sister's stolen dragon eggs and the prospect of another dragonlord family challenging their power. Why give dragons to the children of the richest man in Westeros with the largest fleet in the world, whose wife you denied the throne?

[The Bard of Banefort]

1 hour ago, Sotan said:

This is a question that's always bothered me, does anyone know why Laenor and Laena were allowed dragons? I don't think the text specifically states it (if so I forgot). Considering how worried Jaehaerys I was about his sister's stolen dragon eggs and the prospect of another dragonlord family challenging their power. Why give dragons to the children of the richest man in Westeros with the largest fleet in the world, whose wife you denied the throne?

Whoops, misread the question 

[Lord Varys]

13 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Yeah, that's why I think there's something odd about Aemon joining the kingsguard. Viserys was adamant that his other two children marry, and I don't think Aegon would have taken Aemon on without Viserys' approval. Plus, Aemon still had two unwed female cousins. Maybe it's one of those shouldn't-Rhaenys-have-married-Viserys I situations where it just needed to happen for story purposes, but I can't see Viserys permitting his son to join the kingsguard just because he was hung up on Naerys.

I'd be surprised if Aemon actually joined the KG because of the marriage. Originally, in the pre-THK timeline/conception Aemon may have been motivated by a similar desire as Loras, i.e. protecting his sister from her royal husband, but Aegon wasn't exactly at the top of the line of succession in 153 AC. There was little to no chance that Viserys and his descendants would ever get close to the throne. Aegon III was still young, had five children, might have more in the future, and they all could have lived long enough to have armies of grandchildren.

Quote

I suppose GRRM could change the story by having one or both of them have a childless second marriage in future stories, since he already made a similar change by giving Rhaena a third husband in F&B. 

I think the obvious second wife for Viserys would be widowed Daenaera Velaryon. If that doesn't happen then George should at least go with Daena marrying uncle Viserys after the latter takes the throne. Because that would have been the obvious way resolve the succession issue.

But I've to say, as things stand, dynastically the reign of Aegon III's sons is a mess. Not only does the Baelor-Daena match make little sense, but Baelor the Blessed effectively seems to be hell-bent to eradicate the Targaryen bloodline. He annuls his own marriage, ensures he cannot take another wife or father legitimate children by taking a septon's vows, imprisons his three sisters ensuring they wouldn't marry ... he even effectively prevents his cousin Aegon from having more children by separating him from Naerys and sending him to Braavos.

Quote

If they don't remarry, perhaps one of their daughters will take on the role of a queen in their mothers' place (without being crowned, of course). I don't know if that was common in monarchies, but there were a number of widowed/unwed presidents who appointed their daughter or niece to act as First Lady while in office (Jefferson, Jackson, James Buchanan). I could see GRRM doing something similar with Naerys or Daella/Rhae.  

I don't think it could work with daughters, since that would put them into a position they would have to give up when the next proper queen (the wife of the Heir Apparent) succeeds to her rightful place. In that sense, it would have to be Naerys as wife of the future king, and, for Maekar, Kiera of Tyrosh and, perhaps, Daenora as the wives of Daeron and Aerion.

But going with dowager queens might work even better. That way they wouldn't have to retire them. Although, Daenaera Velaryon must either be dead in the 170s or far away from court, or else the travesty of Baelor's reign would likely not have happened the way it did. She would either have not allowed Baelor to imprison his sisters for his weirdo reason ... or Baelor would have imprisoned his widowed mother alongside her daughters. And there is no mentioning of that. Daenaera seems to have been the most beautiful woman of her generation, and she would have only been 34 in 161 AC. Young enough to entice the passions of all the men at court.

3 hours ago, Sotan said:

This is a question that's always bothered me, does anyone know why Laenor and Laena were allowed dragons? I don't think the text specifically states it (if so I forgot). Considering how worried Jaehaerys I was about his sister's stolen dragon eggs and the prospect of another dragonlord family challenging their power. Why give dragons to the children of the richest man in Westeros with the largest fleet in the world, whose wife you denied the throne?

We have no idea. George doesn't seem to have actually thought through the whole dragon issue. I mean, does it make sense that Viserys I would be a dragonless king? Or that both Alicent and Rhaenyra would not bother that any of the Targaryens in their faction do not, you know, mount either Vermithor or Silverwing, two of the largest dragons alive? No, it doesn't make any sense.

George writing up the reign of Jaehaerys I at the end of the writing process for FaB without reworking the later portions thoroughly really shows. Maegor's reign and the tragedy of Aerea explain why Jaehaerys would keep the dragons close and use the Dragonpit as a means to prevent the blood of the dragon from mounting a dragon without royal permisson. He limited them to his two elder sons and the daughter who married his second son. But then he arbitrarily threw dragons at his grandchildren. That Rhaenys got a dragon makes sense since she got Meleys prior to Aemon's death. That Viserys got a dragon also makes sense since he was Baelon's heir. Daemon is already kind of weird, with him being a hothead and all. But Laenor getting a dragon is very odd - whether Laena got Vhagar during the reign of Jaehaerys or only during the reign of Viserys I we don't know.

But Viserys I would have been a complete moron to allow Rhaenys' daughter a dragon the size of Vhagar. Especially in light of the fact that he himself had no dragon, didn't get along with Daemon, etc.

[The Dragon Demands]

Miguel Sapochnik briefly talked about House of the Dragon at the end of a recent interview with The Hollywood Reporter. He didn't say much of note, other than generically "if it ain't broke don't fix it" (he's not going to change the color palette of the show just for the sake of changing it) but also acknowledging that it's a different show with a different crew so obviously as an organic outgrowth it will feel different. But this is nothing Ryan Condal himself hasn't said before months ago (visually they want it to feel like "part of the same universe" as Game of Thrones, but obviously is a different time period two centuries before so somethings like personal fashion will look different). 

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/movies/movie-features/finch-miguel-sapochnik-tom-hanks-interview-1235033236/

What was really of interest to me is the one new thing he mentioned, that he's working with not just "my DP Fabien Wagner" (who he already said is coming back) but also "my editor Tim Porter" - confirming that Porter is also returning to the show.

Seeing them crew up the series these past few months has been fascinating, all the behind the scenes roles needed to produce a TV show, and I've been keeping a Master List of all the staff, with a focus on returning ones:

https://www.reddit.com/r/HouseOfTheDragon/comments/nv9xg3/master_list_of_all_behind_the_scenes_crew_for/

You never really think about "Film Editing", they never do behind the scenes interviews with them, but it's got a fascinating history:  going back to the dawn of cinema in the 1920s, Film Editing was the only major creative position which had gender parity. Even in the 1920s, when there were basically no women directors or cinematographers, there were very prominent female Film Editors. Why? Because the studios were biased against important "creative" positions having women in them....but barely paid attention to the "technical" positions. The Film Editors were wise to this, so they basically passed off their profession as a "mere technical position" so the studios wouldn't discriminate in hiring for it. ---- In contemporary terms, it's as if studios were discriminating against Transgender people, so Trans CGI effects artists passed themselves off as a "mere technical position" to "hide under the radar" away from studio scrutiny.

So on the whole, we never pay much attention to the Film Editors, even though it has a big impact on the overall visual look and feel of any TV series or film. It's a profession that doesn't try to call attention to itself, to avoid scrutiny.

What stunned me was after eight seasons, I honestly couldn't name the Film Editors on Game of Thrones....even though there were ONLY FIVE regular ones!

Even more than Cinematographers / DP's (who tend to work with specific directors), Film Editors tend to be conserved from one season to the next. So it hit me after Season 8 aired that I'd never even heard of "Katie Weiland", even though she was the lead Film Editor from Seasons 2 THROUGH 8 - she worked on 20 out of 73 episodes! AND she won an Emmy for it!

At any rate, the four regular Film Editors on Game of Thrones were:

• Katie Weiland - 20 episodes - Seasons 2 through 8
• Frances Parker - 13 episodes - Seasons 1 through 3)
• Crispin Green - 13 episodes - Seasons 4 through 8
• Tim Porter - 13 episodes - Seasons 4 through 8
• Oral Norrie Ottey - 8 (seasons 1 to 3, including Winter is Coming and the Rains of Castamere)
• (3 others who between them only did 6 episodes - assistant editors who they were nice and gave full credit to on an episode or two)

Crispin Green was already confirmed to be returning, and now we have Tim Porter back too. Parker and Ottey left after Season 3 and I'm not sure if they'd come back. The big question is if Katie Weiland will return.

Sapochnik has confirmed that Wagner and Porter will return to complete the Director-Cinematographer-Editor trio for his episodes.

I'm not sure who the cinematographers or editors would be for the other three directors on Season 1. I guess directors would bring in their own cinematographers? I don't know.

[The Grey Wolf Strikes Back]

@Lord Varys

Thank you for expanding on my critique. I just hope GRRM doesn't have Daenaera Velaryon, Jena Dondarrion, Alys Arryn, Dyanna Dayne, Kiera of Tyrosh, etc. die giving birth. (For the record, my headcanon is that Dyanna died of whatever pox marred Maekar's cheeks.)

[Jaenara Belarys]

4 hours ago, Sotan said:

Why give dragons to the children of the richest man in Westeros with the largest fleet in the world, whose wife you denied the throne?

My personal headcanon surrounding Seasmoke is that he hatched from an egg laid by Meleys. And Viserys I basically threw dragons to everyone....

1 hour ago, The Grey Wolf Strikes Back said:

Thank you for expanding on my critique. I just hope GRRM doesn't have Daenaera Velaryon, Jena Dondarrion, Alys Arryn, Dyanna Dayne, Kiera of Tyrosh, etc. die giving birth. (For the record, my headcanon is that Dyanna died of whatever pox marred Maekar's cheeks.)

It's probably necessary for Daenaera to die before Baelor's reign so that he can go through with the Maidenvault stuff....

[The Grey Wolf Strikes Back]

@Jaenara Belarys

Doesn't have to be childbirth. Fall from a horse, a hunting accident, poison, disease, trying to claim Silverwing, a shipwreck, there are so many possibilities.

[Lord Varys]

4 hours ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

My personal headcanon surrounding Seasmoke is that he hatched from an egg laid by Meleys. And Viserys I basically threw dragons to everyone....

That is not unlikely, but it doesn't explain how on earth Laena got access to Vhagar. Baelon died in KL, so Vhagar must have been housed in the Dragonpit at that time, and that means that King Jaehaerys I or King Viserys I must have allowed Laena Velaryon to enter the Dragonpit, approach Vhagar, and mount her. It couldn't have happened any other way. And it seems extremely unlike that the Old King would have wanted Laena to get that (or any) dragon either before or after the Great Council, nor does it make sense that Viserys I would allow Laena Vhagar when he rejected her as his second wife.

I mean, seriously, Viserys I spurns the rider of Vhagar in 106 AC, a woman who in the eyes of some even had a better claim to the throne than he had. How, well, unwise was that? And much sense does it make that he would do that as a dragonless king?

Insofar as Seasmoke is concerned - dragon eggs are still property of the king, just as the dragons as a whole are. Jaehaerys I controlled his dragons and dragon eggs, and demanded that Rhaena help him get his property back from Elissa after she stole the eggs. And under Viserys I this didn't change. When Daemon gave Mysaria a dragon egg for her unborn bastard, the king commanded him to return the egg and Daemon obeyed. Later, when Rhaenyra had sons, they all got dragon eggs in their cradles per royal decree. Rhaenyra and Laenor didn't do that on their own authority.

In that sense - Laenor Velaryon would have never gotten a dragon egg or a dragon hatchling without royal persmission. Or rather: If Rhaenys had given her son a dragon egg or a hatchling from one of Meleys's eggs then both could have been taken from Laenor at the command of his royal great-grandfather if that had been Jaehaerys' decision.

We cannot really pretend it was 'a free for all' in the dragon department during the reigns of Jaehaerys I and Viserys I. Although the latter definitely was far more generous and giving in the dragon department, that much is clear.

Quote

It's probably necessary for Daenaera to die before Baelor's reign so that he can go through with the Maidenvault stuff....

Not necessarily. I don't see her still being at court, but she could remarry during the reign of the Young Dragon and live in the castle of her second husband when Baelor takes the throne.

If we don't get the suggested Viserys-Daenaera marriage then my personal preference is that Daenaera Velaryon marries Royce Baratheon, mirroring the marriage of Rogar Baratheon and Alyssa Velaryon. That could help give Renly's weirdo claims about those marriages between the dragon and the stag a hundred years past more credibility. Symbolically, Rogar Baratheon married a Targaryen woman in Alyssa, considering the fact that she was the mother of the king and wore the Targaryen colors during her wedding feast as a Targaryen-by-marriage. Daenaera would do something similar if she ever took a second husband.

6 hours ago, The Grey Wolf Strikes Back said:

@Lord Varys

Thank you for expanding on my critique. I just hope GRRM doesn't have Daenaera Velaryon, Jena Dondarrion, Alys Arryn, Dyanna Dayne, Kiera of Tyrosh, etc. die giving birth. (For the record, my headcanon is that Dyanna died of whatever pox marred Maekar's cheeks.)

I always thought that there was a story behind the death of Egg's mother. More of a story than 'she died giving birth to Princess Rhae'.

In Maekar's case, the need for a proper queen consort should be pretty high. The guy is a kinslayer and half the Realm or more blame him for Baelor's death and everything bad that came from that. When Aerys I is going to name him Heir Apparent, many people might think the man finally got what he was after - the Iron Throne.

I expect that whatever role Maekar plays during the Third Rebellion is going to make him more popular than he is right now, but he would still be a king without a queen, a stern, hard, and distant man whose rule won't be softened by the gentle hand of his wife and queen. That would cause problems.

It doesn't mean that George cannot go with this scenario but doing what he did with Tywin or Baelon - them just refusing to remarry without any explanation - wouldn't be something I'd let him get away with in a detailed history of Maekar's reign.

With Viserys II his personal story and the strains of his job as Hand definitely could help explain why he didn't want to remarry ... but during the reign of Baelor it would have become clear that the line of Aegon III would not be continued by the king, so eventually the throne would either pass to Viserys himself, Aegon, or Daeron. And they were at least 2-3 spares too short. If Daeron II had died without issue, House Targaryen may have faced another succession war, one that may have ended in the destruction of the house.

And when Viserys II finally became king he would have faced the same issue as Maekar later would. Even more so when they decided to pass over the girls.

And thinking about it - Baelon would have faced the same issue. He was his father's heir from 92 AC onwards, but nobody thought he should have a wife at his side who could be his queen? Here it is also very odd that Baelon apparently didn't marry Jocelyn Baratheon to heal the rift between the two branches. And with her being unable to produce more than one child it wouldn't be problematic that she and Baelon never had any issue.

[Jaenara Belarys]

11 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Not necessarily. I don't see her still being at court, but she could remarry during the reign of the Young Dragon and live in the castle of her second husband when Baelor takes the throne.

 

Yes, but would she not return when she heard about Baelor locking up his sisters and at least have some influence on her son and as Dowager Queen? 

13 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

That is not unlikely, but it doesn't explain how on earth Laena got access to Vhagar. Baelon died in KL, so Vhagar must have been housed in the Dragonpit at that time, and that means that King Jaehaerys I or King Viserys I must have allowed Laena Velaryon to enter the Dragonpit, approach Vhagar, and mount her.

There are four years between Baelon's death and the first mention of Laena being a dragonrider, so I wouldn't think it a stretch that Vhagar went back to Dragonstone....there is still the problem of her being allowed to claim the dragon but she's also the daughter of the Sea Snake and Princess Rhaenys.

To summarize:

• Her parents, as stated above and lineage
• Once a dragon is bonded, the dragon won't accept another rider
• Viserys was generous and considering that this is the person who let the Blacks/Greens thing fester for two decades, he could've let Vhagar stay as a way to placate the Velaryons on the matter of succession and later, the marriage. 

 

 

[Lord Varys]

4 minutes ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

Yes, but would she not return when she heard about Baelor locking up his sisters and at least have some influence on her son and as Dowager Queen? 

She could come back but then she would have obviously failed at convincing her son to free his sisters. As a married woman, Baelor would have no right to lock her up, too ... although I guess it may not have been wise for Daenaera and a hypothetical stepfather of Baelor's to show up. I'm not sure Baelor would have liked his mother having sex even if she was properly remarried.

4 minutes ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

There are four years between Baelon's death and the first mention of Laena being a dragonrider, so I wouldn't think it a stretch that Vhagar went back to Dragonstone....there is still the problem of her being allowed to claim the dragon but she's also the daughter of the Sea Snake and Princess Rhaenys.

The place doesn't mean all that much. Laena Velaryon would also have no access to the dragon yards of Dragonstone. At least not without royal permission. The Dragonkeepers would keep her from Vhagar both in KL and on the island.

And considering her age when she is a confirmed dragonrider - and George making a fuzz out of young Aemond and young Aerea claiming huge dragons - we even have reason to assume that the Dragonkeepers would keep her away from Vhagar even if she had royal permission to mount a dragon. They also dissuaded Alyssa from claiming Balerion.

4 minutes ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

To summarize:

• Her parents, as stated above and lineage
• Once a dragon is bonded, the dragon won't accept another rider
• Viserys was generous and considering that this is the person who let the Blacks/Greens thing fester for two decades, he could've let Vhagar stay as a way to placate the Velaryons on the matter of succession and later, the marriage. 

Of course, once Laena claimed Vhagar there was no turning back. Although the king could have permanently separated them. But nobody else would have been able to claim Vhagar while Laena lived.

Giving the Velaryons the largest dragon alive is still a huge mistake, especially since the Velaryons were just humiliated at the Great Council. Now they have the means to force the issue again, if they so chose ... and with Vhagar on their side many lords would have joined with them in a civil war.

It gets even worse for Viserys I when Daemon marries Laena. That way they control the largest and a pretty large dragon between then, while the king himself has no dragon at all, and his daughter and heir most likely would rather side with Daemon and Laena than defend her father on dragonback.

The big problem here is the setting - the idea that a dragonless King Viserys I is viewed as powerful enough to keep his dragonriding family in line. He wouldn't have the means to do this. Not his brother, not his cousins, not even his children. If push came to shove, his lords wouldn't have sided with their fat party king ... they would have sided with the prince or the princess riding the largest dragon. Or the group of Targaryens controlling the most dragons between them.

[Sotan]

On 10/22/2021 at 8:41 PM, Lord Varys said:

The big problem here is the setting - the idea that a dragonless King Viserys I is viewed as powerful enough to keep his dragonriding family in line. He wouldn't have the means to do this. Not his brother, not his cousins, not even his children. If push came to shove, his lords wouldn't have sided with their fat party king ... they would have sided with the prince or the princess riding the largest dragon. Or the group of Targaryens controlling the most dragons between them.

An alternate Dance of Dragons I'd like to read. 

[Lord Varys]

11 hours ago, Sotan said:

An alternate Dance of Dragons I'd like to read. 

I'd rather have Viserys I having his own really big dragon, helping to explain why nobody ever challenged his rule.

I mean, if you really think about it then Daemon's exiles and Rhaenyra giving in to her father's demand to marry Laenor are kind of mysterious considering they have the dragons to resist while he lacks the dragons to force them. Yes, he could decree stuff and he has the men to arrest them, etc. ... but if they can get to their dragons they can use them to flee and/or burn down his castle and capital. Not to mention visiting his most powerful lords in their castles and convincing them that the fat dragonless 'king' has outlived his usefulness and they are either going to help them topple him or they will burn.

This whole thing is especially vexing with Daemon leaving Westeros after he married Laena. They have two dragons now, one of them Vhagar. They shouldn't have to fear a dragonless Viserys I.

George consistently said that the Targaryen kings were the most powerful when they were dragonriders and all ... but the most powerful Targaryen king, Viserys I, apparently wasn't a dragonrider. And we still are supposed to believe that he could control a virtual army of dragonriders, some of which had rather serious quarrels with him.

This is just weird when you think about it. It means that, in the end, we have to believe that Viserys I wearing a crown and sitting on the Iron Throne - like so many dragonless kings after him - was what gave him the authority he had, not so much a dragon he didn't ride. That would mean that the dragonriders weren't exactly very powerful in that era, since the kings could rather arbitrarily exile them. This starts with King Aenys sending Maegor into exile (although Aenys at least was a dragonrider himself, although Quicksilver was much smaller than Balerion) but it is really weird with Viserys I and his quarrels with both the Velaryons and Daemon.

[Sotan]

@Lord Varys

I wonder why GRRM didn't keep Balerion around and have him die days or months after Viserys death? Its not like the Greens had a potential drangonrider waiting around for a large dragon. 

[Ran]

1 hour ago, Sotan said:

@Lord Varys

I wonder why GRRM didn't keep Balerion around and have him die days or months after Viserys death? Its not like the Greens had a potential drangonrider waiting around for a large dragon. 

Probably because GRRM doesn't hold the view that Viserys having a dragon throughout his reign was of vital importance, so Balerion's early death marked the first reign of a king without one and that genuinely had no effect on anything because he was still the Lord of the Seven Kingdoms and commanded the loyalty of what dragonriders there were.

[Lord Varys]

27 minutes ago, Sotan said:

@LordVarys  

I wonder why GRRM didn't keep Balerion around and have him die days or months after Viserys death? Its not like the Greens had a potential drangonrider waiting around for a large dragon. 

George had already established in ASoS that Balerion died during the reign of Jaehaerys I. So there was no way around that.

Although the idea to make Viserys I of all people the last rider of Balerion was something George finally decided when writing FaB. It may have made more sense, say, to make Prince Aemon Balerion's last rider. I mean, it is kind of pitiful and weird how Viserys feels the need to drag an old dragon who is basically already dying out of the Dragonpit to mount him for one last flight. What was the point of that? Didn't he realize that the dragon was dying?

8 minutes ago, Ran said:

Probably because GRRM doesn't hold the view that Viserys having a dragon throughout his reign was of vital importance, so Balerion's early death marked the first reign of a king without one and that genuinely had no effect on anything because he was still the Lord of the Seven Kingdoms and commanded the loyalty of what dragonriders there were.

 

George not thinking it was important that a Targaryen king ruling over an army of dragonriders didn't have a dragon himself is odd since George himself has gone on record that the basis of Targaryen power was their dragons. Which definitely implies that having a dragon - and the size of that dragon - definitely figures into the power dynamics at court. And that would be true both for the relationship within the royal family as well as with the relationship of the various dragonriders with the people of Westeros. Various dragonriders visiting crucial castles during the Dance is rather crucial for the motivation of various lords to actually raise armies to fight in the war.

And the text George actually wrote has Viserys I at odds with multiple dragonriders throughout his reign, namely his cousin Princess Rhaenys, her daughter Laena Velaryon, his own brother Daemon Targaryen and, finally, in 113 AC, his own daughter and heir Rhaenyra Targaryen.

If Viserys I had been a king who had no problems with his brother or cousin or daughter we could let this slide, but as things stand it is quite odd that the Realm at large viewed Viserys I as the guy in charge when everybody in the Seven Kingdoms would have known that Rhaenys, Laena, Daemon, and Rhaenyra could have torched the Red Keep and King's Landing if they wanted to - and Viserys I wouldn't have had a dragon of his own to try to stop them.

And this would have only gotten worse over the years as the king grew ever fatter and sicker. I mean, if you look at things it kind of weird that the Blacks and Greens even had the grace to wait for the death of the old man to start their war. What could Viserys I possibly have done to stop them if they had wanted to mount their dragons and kill their rivals?

Bottom line is, the way George portrays things is that dragons do not really matter all that much, because dragonriders are not powerful in their own right and, basically, do whatever the dragonless guy with the crown tells them ... at least if that guy's name is Viserys I.