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House of the Dragon Filming in Spain in October


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42 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Corlys still isn't a nuanced or complex character. He has a lot of screentime, but he isn't very developed. I mean, do we know why he and Rhaenys even support Rhaenyra? No, we do not.

I'm excited to see how they answer this part. And now that Vaemond has been changed to Corlys' brother instead of nephew, its even more of a question why is he still with Rhaenyra after she murders him? Assuming of course they keep the Driftmark succession (crisis? argument?) issue and the Silent Five. 

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29 minutes ago, Sotan said:

This is an excellent point. Maybe Westerosi legal minds can help me out here, but if the children were born in wedlock and Rhaenyra's husband has claimed them as his and given them his name, aren't they legitimate, legally speaking? 

Yes, they are legitimate in the legal sense. And if the legal father and husband of Rhaenyra actually acknowledges them and doesn't accuse her of adultery then the issue is actually settled. Things get somewhat problematic after Laenor's death since he no longer can defend his wife then.

We don't know anything about the internal dynamics with Rhaenyra and Laenor and their respective families ... but we do know firsthand that Corlys Velaryon viewed Rhaenyra's sons as his grandsons and trueborn Velaryons. He is clearly proud of them in the original war council scene and actually corrects them when Jace refers to himself and his brothers as Targaryens. He says that they are Velaryons.

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28 minutes ago, Sotan said:

This is an excellent point. Maybe Westerosi legal minds can help me out here, but if the children were born in wedlock and Rhaenyra's husband has claimed them as his and given them his name, aren't they legitimate, legally speaking? 

It's never been explicitly stated, but I'd say yes. A woman's word is suspect, but the veracity of a man's statements are less likely to be challenged. We don't know much of Laenor's characterization, but I've always imagined he knew and understood. He had his lover and his wife had hers, but the children were theirs. There's obviously some kind of closeness (or at least agreement) between them, considering that she seemed okay with her son being named Joffrey.

There were other rumors around other Targaryen queens, like Rhaenys and her lovers or the claim that Naerys had cheated on Aegon IV. The closest parallel would likely be Aegon IV, who did let his wife's honor be challenged but still did acknowledge Daeron as his heir.

We can also look towards Baelor, who obviously did not acknowledge Daemon Blackfyre as his own. His marriage to Daena had been annulled, but if it hadn't he could've made Daemon his heir if the boy was acknowledged. (I still feel like Daena should've tried some "he was conceived in a dream" thing but that's off-topic).

TL;DR: there isn't a lot of precedent, but who would doubt a much-smarter-because-of-his-gender man?

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2 minutes ago, Ran said:

What are the family names of Jace, Luke, and Joff? Velaryon. That's why Corlys and Rhaenys support Rhaenyra. Pretty straightforward.

 

 

 

Plus, they treated the boys like their grandchildren. There’s one line about Corlys showing pride in Luke when he volunteered to fly to Storm’s End, and he was also heartbroken by Jace’s death. 

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15 minutes ago, Ran said:

What are the family names of Jace, Luke, and Joff? Velaryon. That's why Corlys and Rhaenys support Rhaenyra. Pretty straightforward.

Does anyone recall if the books or GRRM ever addressed what regnal names Rhaenyra and Jace would've taken?

Historically irl, Queen Victoria started a new house but Elizabeth I, Mary I, Anne I, and Elizabeth II were all of their father's dynasty. I'm blanking on Mary II, however she was also complicated by the co-regency issue. Phillip, Elizabeth's husband, had to sign off his children's name.

Based on the example of Cersei staying Lannister, even as a mere queen consort, I'm sure Rhaenyra would stay Queen Rhaenyra of House Targaryen. But makes you wonder about Jace since he's technically Velaryon.

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46 minutes ago, Sotan said:

I'm excited to see how they answer this part. And now that Vaemond has been changed to Corlys' brother instead of nephew, its even more of a question why is he still with Rhaenyra after she murders him? Assuming of course they keep the Driftmark succession (crisis? argument?) issue and the Silent Five. 

At the end of the day, most noble and Westerosi families are not nearly as close as the Starks, or even the Tyrells. There's a chance Corlys is close with his brother, but would he care for the man who is doubting the paternity of Corlys' heir, the living, recognized son of Corlys' only son? To say that would amount to accusing Laenor of being cuckolded or for acknowledging a false child as his own. Corlys is confidant throughout the Dance and before that his grandchildren are his and never has expressed doubt. I'd imagine something like Cersei writing off Tyrion for killing her son here. 

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28 minutes ago, Sotan said:

I'm excited to see how they answer this part. And now that Vaemond has been changed to Corlys' brother instead of nephew, its even more of a question why is he still with Rhaenyra after she murders him? Assuming of course they keep the Driftmark succession (crisis? argument?) issue and the Silent Five. 

If they want to go somewhere with all that, I'm actually expected Vaemond Velaryon being somehow involved in the murder of Laenor. He wants Driftmark for himself, and I doubt they will go with the 'Corlys is sick and people fear that he might die and has to name a new heir' routine, but rather one where you have an ambitious relative taking things a step further.

12 minutes ago, Ran said:

What are the family names of Jace, Luke, and Joff? Velaryon. That's why Corlys and Rhaenys support Rhaenyra. Pretty straightforward.

That's certainly one possible explanation. But then, Rhaenyra's husband, their own son-in-law, is rumored to have been the guy behind the murder of their son Laenor. Did they never hear that rumor? Do they not believe it? Do they think Rhaenyra is qualified to be queen? Doesn't Rhaenys still have the stronger claim? How are their relations with Otto and Alicent? Were they never tempted to cut their ties with their alleged Strong grandsons in favor of an alliance with the Greens, possibly being sealed by marriages of Aemond/Daeron and Baela/Rhaena?

3 minutes ago, StarksInTheNorth said:

It's never been explicitly stated, but I'd say yes. A woman's word is suspect, but the veracity of a man's statements are less likely to be challenged. We don't know much of Laenor's characterization, but I've always imagined he knew and understood. He had his lover and his wife had hers, but the children were theirs. There's obviously some kind of closeness (or at least agreement) between them, considering that she seemed okay with her son being named Joffrey.

Obviously. After all, Corlys Velaryon actually picked traditional Velaryon names for his two elder grandsons, not Rhaenyra or Laenor (who wanted to name both Jace and Luke after Joffrey).

The best take on the entire thing if Laenor isn't the father is that Laenor made it perfectly clear to his parents that he would never have sex with a woman or a wife, regardless who he would marry. And therefore he and Rhaenyra had to figure out another way to beget heirs. They needed heirs both for the Iron Throne and Driftmark, after all.

3 minutes ago, StarksInTheNorth said:

There were other rumors around other Targaryen queens, like Rhaenys and her lovers or the claim that Naerys had cheated on Aegon IV. The closest parallel would likely be Aegon IV, who did let his wife's honor be challenged but still did acknowledge Daeron as his heir.

The reason here seems to be that Aegon IV either knew or was pretty certain that Daeron was his son. He loathed his siblings and, eventually, his son so much that he would have not acknowledged him if he had truly believed the boy could possibly not be his seed. After all, Aegon being king wouldn't need proof - all he would need was to have the suspicion of Naerys having slept around around the time of Daeron's conception. Then he could have declared Daeron a bastard by royal decree ... just as he declared his bastards trueborn children on his deathbed.

3 minutes ago, StarksInTheNorth said:

We can also look towards Baelor, who obviously did not acknowledge Daemon Blackfyre as his own. His marriage to Daena had been annulled, but if it hadn't he could've made Daemon his heir if the boy was acknowledged. (I still feel like Daena should've tried some "he was conceived in a dream" thing but that's off-topic).

Daemon was conceived years after Baelor had annulled their marriage. Nobody ever thought Baelor was the father of the child. Aegon IV eventually acknowledged him - although that's certainly no proof that he is the father of the boy as long as we don't know if Daena corroborated his claim. If she never commented on the parentage of her son all we have is Aegon's word that he is the father - and Aegon was a lying scumbag.

1 minute ago, StarksInTheNorth said:

Does anyone recall if the books or GRRM ever addressed what regnal names Rhaenyra and Jace would've taken?

Historically irl, Queen Victoria started a new house but Elizabeth I, Mary I, Anne I, and Elizabeth II were all of their father's dynasty. I'm blanking on Mary II, however she was also complicated by the co-regency issue. Phillip, Elizabeth's husband, had to sign off his children's name.

Based on the example of Cersei staying Lannister, even as a mere queen consort, I'm sure Rhaenyra would stay Queen Rhaenyra of House Targaryen. But makes you wonder about Jace since he's technically Velaryon.

The fact that Laenor/Laena and Laenor's sons went with the Velaryon name seems to imply they did not really want to be Targaryens. They could all have gone with the name of their mothers if they had wanted to.

That doesn't mean they might not have changed their names if they had ascended the Iron Throne, but one would imagine that after 92 AC when Rhaenys was passed over Corlys and Rhaenys would have called their children 'Targaryen' to really hammer home the fact that they had as strong a claim - or a stronger claim - to the Iron Throne as Baelon.

One would also expect that Laenor's claim would have been presented as the claim of Laenor Targaryen rather than Laenor Velaryon for the same reason - even more so if we were to assume a King Laenor would sit the Iron Throne as King Laenor I Targaryen.

In light of all that it seems as if the guys intended to rule as Velaryons rather than Targaryens. Because it is normal in this world that the house name of a son is that of the father and not that of the mother.

4 minutes ago, StarksInTheNorth said:

At the end of the day, most noble and Westerosi families are not nearly as close as the Starks, or even the Tyrells. There's a chance Corlys is close with his brother, but would he care for the man who is doubting the paternity of Corlys' heir, the living, recognized son of Corlys' only son? To say that would amount to accusing Laenor of being cuckolded or for acknowledging a false child as his own. Corlys is confidant throughout the Dance and before that his grandchildren are his and never has expressed doubt. I'd imagine something like Cersei writing off Tyrion for killing her son here. 

That's why it would have been better if Vaemond was still Corlys' nephew - because nephews are more distant relations than brothers. A younger brother is more likely to honor the wishes of his elder brother and lord whereas a nephew might not really be close to his uncle nor particularly inclined to honor the wishes of said uncle. Especially if his own desires and ambitions clash with the uncle's wishes.

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It’ll be interesting to see how the show approaches Blood & Cheese. If they want to make Daemon at least a little sympathetic, I imagine they’ll change it in some way (although hopefully he doesn’t get St. Tyrion’d). Maybe they’ll pin it on Mysaria.

All I know is that they better get a damn good actress to play Helaena, because that scene is going to be brutal.

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30 minutes ago, StarksInTheNorth said:

Does anyone recall if the books or GRRM ever addressed what regnal names Rhaenyra and Jace would've taken?

It's not addressed in the text. The norm in Westeros, per GRRM, and part of why there are families with such long continuity, is that if someone takes over a seat because of inheritance through the female line, they'll take that name. I.E., Jace would became Jacaerys Targaryen, First of His Name. We see an example of this in ACoK:

Quote

"I will, ser," said Leobald, and only then raised the matter of Lady Hornwood. Poor thing, with no husband to defend her lands nor son to inherit. His own lady wife was a Hornwood, sister to the late Lord Halys, doubtless they recalled. "An empty hall is a sad one. I had a thought to send my younger son to Lady Donella to foster as her own. Beren is near ten, a likely lad, and her own nephew. He would cheer her, I am certain, and perhaps he would even take the name Hornwood--"
 "If he were named heir?" suggested Maester Luwin.
". . . so the House might continue," finished Leobald.

Another example is in the Westerlands history of TWoIaF, where Joffrey Lydden took his wife's Lannister name when he became king due to her inheriting. 

But it's not really addressed, and we don't know what would have happened had Rhaenyra secured the throne and Jacaerys had survived to inherit.

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19 minutes ago, Ran said:

But it's not really addressed, and we don't know what would have happened had Rhaenyra secured the throne and Jacaerys had survived to inherit.

I assume if the 3 brothers didn't know they weren't Laenor's, they would've found it out. Luke and Jace were probably old enough to realise it, tho, but Corlys pushing the connection might've made them delay calling themselves Targaryens, if they intended to ever do that. I assume they would've done it, all three of them, if they were to inherit the throne. It is not only a customary thing, but they weren't actual Velaryons either, and they would've married Targaryen princesses as well (not Joffrey). So I'd say Jace would've become Jacaerys Targaryen, whereas Luke would've remained a Velaryon. Or to be more precise, the one inheriting the IT would've become a Targ, and the other one, who would've inherited Driftmark would've remained a Velaryon, be it Joffrey or Luke. 

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4 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said:

I assume they would've done it, all three of them, if they were to inherit the throne. It is not only a customary thing, but they weren't actual Velaryons either, and they would've married Targaryen princesses as well (not Joffrey). So I'd say Jace would've become Jacaerys Targaryen, whereas Luke would've remained a Velaryon. Or to be more precise, the one inheriting the IT would've become a Targ, and the other one, who would've inherited Driftmark would've remained a Velaryon, be it Joffrey or Luke. 

Pretty much my thoughts on it as well. And Luke would happen to be married to Rhaena, daughter of Laena, and so an heir of Corlys Velaryon would ultimately continue the bloodline even if Luke himself did not have Velaryon blood.

(Another reason, by the by, for Corlys's support of Rhaenyra, since if things had gone to plan his daughter's daughter would be queen and his other granddaughter would insure that his blood would continue in the rule of House Velaryon.)

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21 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

It’ll be interesting to see how the show approaches Blood & Cheese. If they want to make Daemon at least a little sympathetic, I imagine they’ll change it in some way (although hopefully he doesn’t get St. Tyrion’d). Maybe they’ll pin it on Mysaria.

All I know is that they better get a damn good actress to play Helaena, because that scene is going to be brutal.

I'd expect they drastically change that entire episode. It happens way too early in the war, just as many of the dragon battles.

If they start to murder children early in the war both sides will look like thugs.

But I'm not sure Daemon will be written and depicted as a sympathetic guy. He isn't. He is more or less an ass with some cool lines. If they adapt things faithfully, then by the time of Blood & Cheese Daemon will already be a lecherous thug seducing his own niece, a cruel guy fighting a pointless war, a bully towards his first wife, a law enforcement officer abusing his office, the man behind a couple of murders at court,

10 minutes ago, Ran said:

It's not addressed in the text. The norm in Westeros, per GRRM, and part of why there are families with such long continuity, is that if someone takes over a seat because of inheritance through the female line, they'll take that name. I.E., Jace would became Jacaerys Targaryen, First of His Name. We see an example of this in ACoK:

With the Hornwood example we actually have a situation where a house name is the same as the name of a seat. It is the Lord Hornwood of Hornwood, just as it is the Lord Darry of Darry.

The Targaryens are a rather young royal dynasty and nothing about their name is sacred or full of tradition with the Westerosi or a crucial feature in keeping power and prestige. Corlys Velaryon is actually a greater man than Viserys I or Daemon Targaryen (and arguably also as Jaehaerys I's sons).

And with the Velaryons effectively being another dragonlord house in that era, they are as good as the Targaryens themselves. As any house in their position would be.

We also have the Baratheons sticking with their name after their rise to the throne never mind that their legal claim was their descent from Aegon V Targaryen, and we can expect that the Blackfyres would have done the same if they had been successful - never mind, that their entire cause rested on the fiction that they were the only/rightful Targaryens, whereas Daeron Falseborn and his sons were just bastards and bastard descendants.

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Overall, it is also kind of silly to assume that if Daemon Targaryen had had a son by Rhea Royce who eventually became Lord of Runestone would go by the name of Royce. He would be the blood of the dragon, a male line descendant of the most powerful dynasty in the entire Realm. The backwater Vale peasants - who according to his father were fucking their sheep - would learn to deal with the fact that it was the Targaryens of Runestone now, not the Royces of Runestone.

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1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

I'd expect they drastically change that entire episode. It happens way too early in the war, just as many of the dragon battles.

If they start to murder children early in the war both sides will look like thugs.

But I'm not sure Daemon will be written and depicted as a sympathetic guy. He isn't. He is more or less an ass with some cool lines. If they adapt things faithfully, then by the time of Blood & Cheese Daemon will already be a lecherous thug seducing his own niece, a cruel guy fighting a pointless war, a bully towards his first wife, a law enforcement officer abusing his office, the man behind a couple of murders at court,

With the Hornwood example we actually have a situation where a house name is the same as the name of a seat. It is the Lord Hornwood of Hornwood, just as it is the Lord Darry of Darry.

The Targaryens are a rather young royal dynasty and nothing about their name is sacred or full of tradition with the Westerosi or a crucial feature in keeping power and prestige. Corlys Velaryon is actually a greater man than Viserys I or Daemon Targaryen (and arguably also as Jaehaerys I's sons).

And with the Velaryons effectively being another dragonlord house in that era, they are as good as the Targaryens themselves. As any house in their position would be.

We also have the Baratheons sticking with their name after their rise to the throne never mind that their legal claim was their descent from Aegon V Targaryen, and we can expect that the Blackfyres would have done the same if they had been successful - never mind, that their entire cause rested on the fiction that they were the only/rightful Targaryens, whereas Daeron Falseborn and his sons were just bastards and bastard descendants.

I think they’ll try to make him an antihero. GRRM clearly believes he’s a grey character, so I think they’ll take their cue from him (although I’ve always wondered what exactly Daemon’s good deeds were lol. I guess he raised four great kids?)

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11 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Overall, it is also kind of silly to assume that if Daemon Targaryen had had a son by Rhea Royce who eventually became Lord of Runestone would go by the name of Royce. He would be the blood of the dragon, a male line descendant of the most powerful dynasty in the entire Realm. The backwater Vale peasants - who according to his father were fucking their sheep - would learn to deal with the fact that it was the Targaryens of Runestone now, not the Royces of Runestone.

This really seems to depend on what's the most beneficiary. As you said, a son (or daughter) of Daemon Targaryen and Rhea Royce would be a male-line descendant of the most powerful dynasty, the Targaryens. Which would allow them to have dragons, whereas remaining Royces would not benefit them this much. The reason people may seem to do this may be that the name gives influence, credibility, stability and legitimacy, but being a Targaryen would still be more beneficial. 

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11 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

We also have the Baratheons sticking with their name after their rise to the throne never mind that their legal claim was their descent from Aegon V Targaryen, and we can expect that the Blackfyres would have done the same if they had been successful - never mind, that their entire cause rested on the fiction that they were the only/rightful Targaryens, whereas Daeron Falseborn and his sons were just bastards and bastard descendants.

I don't think anyone has to point out the reasons why Robert Baratheon didn't take up the Targaryen name. 

11 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Corlys Velaryon is actually a greater man than Viserys I or Daemon Targaryen (and arguably also as Jaehaerys I's sons)

I wonder why he couldn't elect his wife/children as Jaehaerys' heir. Not even with bribing anyone he could. 

11 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

The Targaryens are a rather young royal dynasty and nothing about their name is sacred or full of tradition with the Westerosi or a crucial feature in keeping power and prestige.

The Velaryons on the other hand weren't oneat all, which isn't better. Everyone would've been more satisfied with Jace calling himself Jacaerys Targaryen, except for Corlys, maybe. It's not like he wouldn't have won 'the game' anyway. Corlys might have known by the time of their birth that the children aren't Laenor's. Rumours started to spread immediately. If not anything else, everyone knew by the time of Lucerys' birth that neither is he the son of Laenor. Yet Corlys wanted to give them the somewhat most popular Velaryon names. If he weren't siding with Rhaenyra, none of the 3 would've inherited Driftmark. That could be a reason. 

And it's not like the factions weren't drawn out already, as you sometimes say. Corlys' actual (and only) grandchildren were Baela and Rhaena, Daemon's daughters. They were bethroted to his alleged grandchildren, Jacaerys and Lucerys, whom he defended when the Silent Five's incident happened. Daemon and Otto hated each other since the 100's, and he hated his nephews for pushing him further away on the line. On the other hand, he was friends with Corlys, and his ex son-in-law. 

It's safe to assume the 3 brothers would've figured it out, if they didn't already by the time of their death. That would make them have no reason to remain Velaryons (I talk of the one that gets the Iron Throne), and branding themselves as Targaryens would have been a customary thing as well. 

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