Age Nepotism I

[IFR]

@IheartIheartTesla

That is very fascinating. I would also add that a modern barrier to achieve at an early age the kind of breakthrough that is Nobel Prize worthy is that it tends to require advanced laboratories and testing. Long gone are the days when you can have a simple garage contraption of a gold foil and an alpha emitter. You really have to climb the ladder of bureaucracy to have access to the equipment and team that can produce a paper with your name first below the title. 

Mathematics would be a field where this barrier is absent, but unfortunately the comparable Fields Medal doesn't work due to the 40 year age cap.

@mormont

Thank you for your perspective! I'm sorry that someone you care for is faced with any social stigma and I wish them the best! 

[Rippounet]

8 hours ago, The_Lone_Wolf said:

Takeaway in a nutshell 

Most younglings are jerks few aren't. Vice versa with elders 

It's not at all being a jerk, quite the contrary in fact. From the article I linked earlier:

Quote

 

But adolescence isn’t always as dark as it’s made out to be. There’s a feature of adolescence that makes up for the stupid risk-taking and hideous fashion decisions. And that’s an adolescent’s frenzied, agitated, incandescent ability to feel someone else’s pain, to feel the pains of the entire world, to want to right all its wrongs. Adolescents are nature’s most wondrous example of empathy, where the forcefulness of feeling as the other can border on nearly being the other.

This intensity is at the intersection of so many facets of adolescence. With the highs higher and lows lower, the empathic pain scalds and the glow of having done the right thing makes it seem plausible that we are here for a purpose. Another factor is the openness to novelty. An open mind is a prerequisite for an open heart, and the adolescent hunger for the new readily presents opportunities to walk a mile in someone else’s shoes.

 

@mormont I certainly didn't mean to be hurtful or insensitive. I'd like to point out no one here said that autistic people lacked theory of mind.

Edit: wow, that article obliterates the conclusions I posted earlier.

[S John]

I read about the pre-frontal cortex and the approximate age of 25 a couple of years ago and I’ve since mentioned this to several of friends around my age (37) in conversation and to a person they’ve said… yea that seems about right. 

Even just as a personal anecdote without the science behind it that tends to feel accurate to people who have lived 5-10 or more years past that age. I was still me before that, but it was like a beta version and I’ve since become the stable release version.

Never gonna be immune to mistakes and I’ve certainly made a few since then, but I definitely make better decisions more consistently than in adolescence and early adulthood. The vast majority of regrettable personal behavior are from before that 25ish benchmark. And what drives that home even more is knowing that at the time I often didn’t really even recognize the mistake I was making. No clue that it might bother me later. It’s not until later that you come to realize that, man there was a period of my life when I just willy nilly did stupid shit that I would never do now. I expect that my older self will criticize my current self as well but I don’t think it will be nearly as acute as the criticisms I have of my ~17-24 year old self.

[mormont]

6 hours ago, Rippounet said:

 

@mormont I certainly didn't mean to be hurtful or insensitive.

Rest assured, if I thought anybody meant to be hurtful or insensitive about autism or any other non-neurotypical condition, I'd post a very different response to the one above.

[DireWolfSpirit]

I found the OP to be a little confusing but by reading the commentary I somewhat get the subject .

It reminds me of a scene from Cold Mountain in a way.

 

[TheLastWolf]

17 hours ago, Zorral said:

What predicament is that?  That of being 17 with opinions, but no credentials and experience, so not receiving the sort of respect and attention that an older professional in a field, who studied for years, continues to be active in research and development, continues to develop skills and expertise, who is deeply connected with all the others who are doing the same? 

Opinions and few little grey cells. 

Plus I don't seek respect or attention. I'm allergic to the latter and consider the former an unnecessary social construct. Just acknowledgement and no condescension in a society full of people who consider age their superiority, like how the whites consider their color over blacks 

Plus I've nothing against established professionals who know what they are doing. Only pretentious insufferable wannabe know-it-alls who somehow stumbled around to being 50 in a sedentary world 

[TheLastWolf]

15 hours ago, Mlle. Zabzie said:

If you want another word, try “bias”, “preference”, “predilection”, “partiality”, “respect”, “veneration”, “reverence”, “esteem”, or, perhaps, the more casual “props”.

Thank you. Those are more suitable 

15 hours ago, Mlle. Zabzie said:

think you will find that in Western societies, this phenomenon you have identified is less pronounced than it may feel to you right now.  There is a reason that “ageism” was coined and “age discrimination” exists as a claim.  In the workplace in the US, it is increasingly harder for someone to get a new job after a certain age (usually 50s, unless you are a Hollywood actress, where it is...younger).  I also think it is possible to find plenty of outliers whose most productive periods of work were later in life.  It’s all about your sample and examples (and also your definition of success - despite the Zuckerberg outliers, I think on average founders who are over 40 when they start their businesses do better).

Well, the world is not just western civilization. But I agree with everything 

15 hours ago, Mlle. Zabzie said:

Of course experience isn’t the same as learning, and of course learning does not give you experience.  There are plenty of 55 year old idiots and plenty of 20 year old whiz kids.  That is Ormond’s point on averages.  But because I want to LEARN, I ask people with EXPERIENCE for advice, that I can then assimilate and apply.  Somebody (can’t find the quote right now) said “I wish I knew as much now as I knew when I was [20]” (could have been 25 or 16 or when I was a teenager - anyhow, you get the jist).  The point is that there is a certain arrogance that comes with youth (to quote again, which is wasted on the young) which (hopefully) falls away with wisdom

Succinctly said. Thanks a lot. I think it was Mark Twain. Not certain either. Plus the arrogance, I'm not in that category though I may appear to be, just vehemently defending myself being misunderstood. Not asking for respect or attention. Just no unwarranted condescension stemming from bias 

[TheLastWolf]

15 hours ago, JEORDHl said:

Ageism would be the germane word choice

15 hours ago, JEORDHl said:

More directly to the topic, 20 year ago me likely would've eviscerated the OP.

Hah. I'd put a valiant stand. 

15 hours ago, JEORDHl said:

Current me however, while reading [and remembering my own uncouth youth and then-feelings of intellectual and moral superiority] had a few chuckles.    

Uncouth I'm by Victorian Elizabethan standards. But no moral or intellectual superiority here. Morals, I'm a fan of the grey doused scale. Another grey apart from the grey cells in the intellectual part which I apply the Socratic Paradox to. 

So moral nihilism (heavily abridged though, nihilistic to the law maybe) and Socratic paradox 

Thanks for the chuckles 

[Spockydog]

23 hours ago, Heartofice said:

True to some extent though I’ve found their effect to be over blown, and not a substitute for experience. 
 

You find the effect of books to be overblown? One of the most important inventions in the history of humanity? Come on, man.

Try training a doctor without books writing. Or anything else for that matter.

And yeah, of course if you've been an angler for fifty years, then Fly Fishing by JR Hartley is not going to be of much use to you. But if you've never picked up a fishing rod in your life, then this shit will be invaluable.

I mean, I thought this is glaringly obvious, but, ya know, some people have been brainwashed into thinking that we don't need experts anymore.

 

[TheLastWolf]

15 hours ago, larrytheimp said:

About the only constant since then in my life has been learning how very little I actually knew; that life is a gradual release from ignorance.

Hope it's not a paraphrased quote. Beautiful. I'd say this is my least meaningless thread. (blame nihilism) 

15 hours ago, larrytheimp said:

The OP is something that would have resonated very much and quite thoroughly with my younger self, though I doubt I'd have made the argument as well as our young lone wolf did

Gee! Thanks 

15 hours ago, IheartIheartTesla said:

Obviously there is also an asymmetry in our arguments; us olds have been both young and old. On the flip side, the younger people have only ever been young. That does lend to the former some authority in confidently stating that they know what they are talking about. 

Fair enough 

[TheLastWolf]

2 minutes ago, Spockydog said:

Try training a doctor without books. Or anything else for that matter.

Cadavers 

[Spockydog]

2 minutes ago, The_Lone_Wolf said:

Cadavers 

Hang on, is this 1890 or 2021?

What do you think happened to the drawings of those gizzards? They went into books.

 

[TheLastWolf]

1 minute ago, Spockydog said:

Hang on, is this 1890 or 2021?

*Just a moment Dr Jekyll... I'll be back *

Pardon, you were saying!? 

[Heartofice]

37 minutes ago, Spockydog said:

You find the effect of books to be overblown? One of the most important inventions in the history of humanity? Come on, man.

Try training a doctor without books writing. Or anything else for that matter.

And yeah, of course if you've been an angler for fifty years, then Fly Fishing by JR Hartley is not going to be of much use to you. But if you've never picked up a fishing rod in your life, then this shit will be invaluable.

I mean, I thought this is glaringly obvious, but, ya know, some people have been brainwashed into thinking that we don't need experts anymore.

 

Eh? That’s not what I’m talking about at all. Never mind.

[Pebble thats Stubby]

2 hours ago, The_Lone_Wolf said:

Opinions and few little grey cells. 

Plus I don't seek respect or attention. I'm allergic to the latter and consider the former an unnecessary social construct. Just acknowledgement and no condescension in a society full of people who consider age their superiority, like how the whites consider their color over blacks 

Plus I've nothing against established professionals who know what they are doing. Only pretentious insufferable wannabe know-it-alls who somehow stumbled around to being 50 in a sedentary world 

If you feel this way now, count yourself very lucky to be a Man.     being Mansplained to never stops no matter the relative ages or expertise levels.

 

There are a lot of Older people who don't understand how much harder it is now for younger people.  Housing and education are a lot more expensive.  You used to be able to buy a house on one average income and didn't need a University degree, some wonder why young people like them can't just get a job and house like they did and if they can't afford a house then its the young persons fault for silly spending.  - If this is where your feelings are coming from then its ok to    OK Boomer them.       also take some comfort that at least your existence are being acknowledged,  Gen X is invisible.

 

If there are some other areas where you feel people are insufferable knowitalls it maybe they love the sound of their own voice and treat everyone that way.  If you would like to give a specific example of when you have been talked down to we might be able empathise better.

[TheLastWolf]

3 hours ago, Pebble thats Stubby said:

you feel this way now, count yourself very lucky to be a Man.     being Mansplained to never stops no matter the relative ages or expertise levels.

Civilization and society are failures, albeit with redeeming qualities. I hate those chauvinists

3 hours ago, Pebble thats Stubby said:

There are a lot of Older people who don't understand how much harder it is now for younger people.  Housing and education are a lot more expensive.  You used to be able to buy a house on one average income and didn't need a University degree, some wonder why young people like them can't just get a job and house like they did and if they can't afford a house then its the young persons fault for silly spending.  - If this is where your feelings are coming from then its ok to    OK Boomer them.       also take some comfort that at least your existence are being acknowledged,  Gen X is invisible.

Zen mode 

3 hours ago, Pebble thats Stubby said:

If there are some other areas where you feel people are insufferable knowitalls it maybe they love the sound of their own voice and treat everyone that way.  If you would like to give a specific example of when you have been talked down to we might be able empathise better.

When it's your parents, teachers and 'friends'... Never mind. There are too many. Some too petty to a third person, some too personal/private to reveal. I thank you all for your views which were great eye openers. If I do recall a specific instance that is worth/not-too-personal, you'd be the first to be tagged 

[JGP]

 

3 hours ago, Pebble thats Stubby said:

Gen X is invisible.

This latch key kid prefers it this way, honestly. 

[Pebble thats Stubby]

13 minutes ago, JEORDHl said:

 

This latch key kid prefers it this way, honestly. 

I think overall I do too,  it does get annoying at times though.

 

especially as I'm also extra invisible due to my height and then get abuse for not 78% nitrogen 21% oxygen after I've been stepped on.

[Larry of the Lawn]

9 hours ago, The_Lone_Wolf said:

Hope it's not a paraphrased quote.  

I believe I lifted that from Bob Braudis describing how he spent a morning driving around rural Kentucky trying to find booze for Hunter S Thompson only to discover it was a dry county.  

[TheLastWolf]

17 hours ago, JEORDHl said:

 

This latch key kid prefers it this way, honestly. 

 please elaborate. My understanding of that word is not complete. Only my dad works and now self employed thanks to Covid. And I've never had a latch key chain. 

But yeah, I prefer it to an extent 

16 hours ago, Pebble thats Stubby said:

I think overall I do too,  it does get annoying at times though.

 

especially as I'm also extra invisible due to my height and then get abuse for not 78% nitrogen 21% oxygen after I've been stepped on.

Hmm

13 hours ago, larrytheimp said:

I believe I lifted that from Bob Braudis describing how he spent a morning driving around rural Kentucky trying to find booze for Hunter S Thompson only to discover it was a dry county.  

Lol