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Nami

Did Robert know?

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I'm revisiting AGoT and Robert says

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Rhaegar… Rhaegar won, damn him. I killed him, Ned. I drove the spike right through that black armor into his black heart, and he died at my feet. They made up songs about it. Yet somehow he still won. He has Lyanna now, and I have her.

And I started to wonder what a strange thing to say if you know your beloved was raped and considers that in the afterlife she is with her rapist.
Robert proclaims to the world that Rhaegar raped Lyanna, how can he imagine and even say outloud that Rhaegar has her now with them both dead?

Rereading the book for the second time, I noticed from the start that GRRM is full of these little clever innuendos, something that went over my head on my first reading of course.

Maybe Robert deep down knows that Lyanna chose Rhaegar over him? As Ned said, he didn't know Lyanna, so he can't possibly imagine she was wild enough to elope with another man, plus it goes against his idea of her being this little perfect flower devoid of any of feelings, thoughts and desires. 

I believe he knows Rhaegar wasn't the kind of man that would a rape a woman. He knew Rhaegar personally, he probably saw him many times and had dealings with him, was aware of his reputation. Rhaegar even calls him cousin when talking to Jaime, he probably called Robert that in person, meaning he saw Robert as family. Rhaegar was handsome and apparently a dreamy looking man, women went nuts over him. Robert also knew the magnetism Rhaegar had.

So I think any buried doubt he has over this incident is because of Rhaegar and deep down he knows Rhaegar won Lyanna over.

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6 hours ago, Nami said:

I'm revisiting AGoT and Robert says

And I started to wonder what a strange thing to say if you know your beloved was raped and considers that in the afterlife she is with her rapist.
Robert proclaims to the world that Rhaegar raped Lyanna, how can he imagine and even say outloud that Rhaegar has her now with them both dead?

Rereading the book for the second time, I noticed from the start that GRRM is full of these little clever innuendos, something that went over my head on my first reading of course.

Maybe Robert deep down knows that Lyanna chose Rhaegar over him? As Ned said, he didn't know Lyanna, so he can't possibly imagine she was wild enough to elope with another man, plus it goes against his idea of her being this little perfect flower devoid of any of feelings, thoughts and desires. 

I believe he knows Rhaegar wasn't the kind of man that would a rape a woman. He knew Rhaegar personally, he probably saw him many times and had dealings with him, was aware of his reputation. Rhaegar even calls him cousin when talking to Jaime, he probably called Robert that in person, meaning he saw Robert as family. Rhaegar was handsome and apparently a dreamy looking man, women went nuts over him. Robert also knew the magnetism Rhaegar had.

So I think any buried doubt he has over this incident is because of Rhaegar and deep down he knows Rhaegar won Lyanna over.

I agree. Robert strikes me as a man who would rather avoid difficult truths than face them. It is entirely in character for him to know deep down that his "truth" isn't true.

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7 hours ago, Nami said:

And I started to wonder what a strange thing to say if you know your beloved was raped and considers that in the afterlife she is with her rapist.
Robert proclaims to the world that Rhaegar raped Lyanna, how can he imagine and even say outloud that Rhaegar has her now with them both dead?

I know. What an odd thing to say about a woman who was allegedly raped. The kidnapper/rapist should be burning in hell for what he's done to the girl, not being with her in the afterlife. Like imagine having to spend eternity with the person who tormented you.

I think Robert knows what the truth is and chose to live in denial about it because it makes him feel better about himself. It's an ego thing, plus he won the war, so he gets to say whatever he wants about Rhaegar. It's not like he's there to defend himself anymore. 

But I think that moment that you pointed out to is an acknowledgement that there is so much more to the story than what we know. 

Right off the bat, there are two conflicting stories. Dany thinks about her brother who died for the woman he loved at least a couple of times that I remember, while Robert talks about killing Rhaegar for what he did to Lyanna. Who are we supposed to believe? The 13 year old who got the story from Viserys who was a 7 year old at the time of the events or the grown man who fought and killed the one he has named a kidnapper and a rapist?

I think that the passage you quoted is the closest to honest that we got from Robert about the whole Rhaegar/Lyanna situation.

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2 hours ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

The kidnapper/rapist should be burning in hell for what he's done to the girl, not being with her in the afterlife. Like imagine having to spend eternity with the person who tormented you.

But that's pretty much how I read it - literally. Lyanna was never rescued in life, and even death isn't an escape for her, because Rhaegar has followed her into the afterlife. (As Robert sees it.)

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I get that Robert thinks he failed to save Lyanna from her "raper". And I get some jealousy about Rhaegar. Is it only for him having Lyanna even after death? Is it because he was generally jealous of Rhaegar? That is left open for now

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When Robert and Ned are in the crypts in Winterfell, Robert rants about Rhaegar raping Lyanna, and Ned does not comment on it. The same may have happened before, years before, when they made peace in the aftermath of Lyanna's death. Robert may have cursed Rhaegar for a rapist and Ned, who had seen Lyanna before her death, may have been silent. Robert suppressed his doubts as long as he could, and then an honest moment came. 

Of course, other interpretations are also possible. There is the really crude version, where all Robert thinks about, in terms of relationships, is sex. He has Cersei, and only Rhaegar ever had Lyannna.

Or he could think of how he lost an ideal way of life - symbolized by Lyanna - to Rhaegar and death, and, despite his glorious victory and his crown, how he had ended up in a very mundane and degrading sort of unhappiness, personified by Cersei.

 

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5 hours ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

I think Robert knows what the truth is and chose to live in denial about it because it makes him feel better about himself. It's an ego thing, plus he won the war, so he gets to say whatever he wants about Rhaegar. It's not like he's there to defend himself anymore. 

It also makes me think that his burning hate for the Targaryens and basically all his depression is based on the fact that deep down he knows Lyanna chose Rhaegar, rather than honestly believing that Rhaegar raped Lyanna.

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That’s just Robert being unhappy and bitter. Both are dead and gone.  The dead have no one. That could change when Jon comes back wighted. Arya and he could live together like the NK did with his corpse bride. Arya and her corpse groom.

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, Aejohn the Conqueroo said:

 

That other discussion was on whether Robert knew or suspected that Cersei's kids were Jaime's. This one is about whether Robert knew or suspected - deep down - that Lyanna had willingly chosen Rhaegar, as evidenced by the OP's quote above.

Edited by Julia H.

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43 minutes ago, Julia H. said:

That other discussion was on whether Robert knew or suspected that Cersei's kids were Jaime's. This one is about whether Robert knew or suspected - deep down - that Lyanna had willingly chosen Rhaegar, as evidenced by the OP's quote above.

lol. caught me sleepwalking again huh.

Thanks.

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This is interesting. I never realised this, and it is actually possible he thinks she ran off. Because within that same chapter, Robert proceeds to regret allot of wrongs. His eyes seemed to have finally open in a moment where he realised all his mistakes and faults.

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On 7/1/2021 at 4:33 PM, Springwatch said:

But that's pretty much how I read it - literally. Lyanna was never rescued in life, and even death isn't an escape for her, because Rhaegar has followed her into the afterlife. (As Robert sees it.)

Basically this, people want to read what they want to read and they project their own bias into an admision of guilt.

Cersei is alive, so is Robert. Lyanna wasn't rescued and is dead, so is Rhaegar. There is nothing more to  it.

Robert is on his deathbed and he's looking forward the idea of reuniting with Lyanna. He was rather open about how shitty he was then, but still looking forward meeting a woman he "deep down knew" scorned him and ran off with other man, kickstarting a war that ended up with him hating his life?? Unlikely.

 

 

On 7/1/2021 at 6:22 AM, Nami said:

Robert proclaims to the world that Rhaegar raped Lyanna, how can he imagine and even say outloud that Rhaegar has her now with them both dead?

Because both are dead...

 

 

On 7/1/2021 at 6:22 AM, Nami said:

I believe he knows Rhaegar wasn't the kind of man that would a rape a woman. He knew Rhaegar personally, he probably saw him many times and had dealings with him, was aware of his reputation. Rhaegar even calls him cousin when talking to Jaime, he probably called Robert that in person, meaning he saw Robert as family. Rhaegar was handsome and apparently a dreamy looking man, women went nuts over him. Robert also knew the magnetism Rhaegar had.

That has literally nothing to do with whether he was a rapist or not, Robert was and he was all that too. None of that has much to do with how Robert would see him.

Robert and Rhaegar were cousins, so it matters little how they choose to call the other.

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