The Tokyo Olympic Games

[Maithanet]

I also think that social media is likely to put additional pressure and stress on any athlete who was incredibly successful at a young age (like Biles or Ledecky). 

[QuietColours]

Simone's warm up and competition vaults were scary if you know what you're looking at. She was completely lost in the air, bails, and just drops. She mentioned both mental health issues and the twisties (often stress related, but they can come out of nowhere) in interviews. If her other warmups looked anything like that, her competing today would not have been safe for her or the team. Gymnasts who get lost in the air or balk doing elite gymnastics tend to get paralyzed or die, and you can't control it or force it when it happens.

She had a rough second day at Olympic Trials and mentioned then how going through this process was 'bring a lot of things back.' I'm not going to try to pretend I know what's happening with her mentally or physically, but I am incredibly impressed with the courage she showed in being able to speak up and say 'I can't do this' rather than having an accident do it for her mid-competition. I would have no issue with her competing in any of her finals, and I respect her ability to make that call.

Incredibly proud of all the medalists. Russia looked fabulous; Urazova, Listunova, and Melnikova are a force, and it would have been a fight even with Biles. They earned that gold. I'm intensely proud of the US women for stepping up--Grace was only supposed to be doing vault and maybe floor today, but she did all around after Jordan's rough prelims, and she set the table with solid, calm routines on every event. Jordan came back from her bars and beam mistakes in prelims and pushed through her mistakes on floor. Suni was impressive everywhere, pulled out her hard bar routine when it mattered, and anchored a floor lineup with only the 30 second warm up. And the GB girls were great. I really thought it was going to be between Italy and France for bronze after China's meltdown, but they just refused to let their beam fall matter and fought for that medal. They were awesome today.

[lessthanluke]

4 hours ago, kairparavel said:

On a side note, today's athletes are under levels of 24/7 immediate access scrutiny their predecessors never faced. I can't even imagine the weight of it.

My other half struggles with this a lot and our sport is only small and niche. I can't even imagine what its like to be Simone.

 

(Other half is one of the top pro strongwomen in the World)

[Winterfell is Burning]

2 hours ago, BigFatCoward said:

Also the pressure on Olympians is so different for one cycle every 4 years, especially someone like Biles.

It's not like Messi or Federer or LeBron who to a certain extent don't know any different. 

That's a good point. For years, many of them, even top ones, get no or virtually no media attention, and then all the sudden they're the most talked about people in the world. Very different from someone that has to live with it every week, because they have the experience (and the help, at least often) to handle it.

[Which Tyler]

14 hours ago, Heartofice said:

Biles pulling out is yet another incident of an athelete claiming mental health for pulling out of competing. It’s something I’d never heard of before but now seems to be happening more and more.

It's far from the first time it's happened; or even the first time it's been talked about publicly. However, the world is moving in the right direction, and mental health problems carry ever less stigma, and don't have to be hidden.
There's obviously still a LOT of work to go on this though, seeing the reactions from some when Osaka, and now Biles are receiving.
A couple of years ago Joe Marler had a similar reaction when he opened up about his mental health (but much lesser - dunno if that's because he's a white male, or if rugby as a sport / Britain as a country is more understanding of mental health - I know where I'd put my money though).

 

The first elite athlete I can recall of the top of my head who pulling out specifically due to mental health was Graham Thorpe 20 years ago - met with absolutely no understanding at all; and probably acting as a confirmation for other sportspeople to keep quiet about their mental health, and fake a physical injury instead when necessary.

 

Oh, and please don't use "claiming" like that, it implies (hopefully incorrectly) that you think it's just an excuse, and not a reason - unless you'd also say that someone else was "claiming a physical injury for pulling out of competing"

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

I would be curious to see how people would react if before game 6 of the NBA Finals Giannis or Paul, the two major stars for each team, said they weren't playing due to mental health concerns. I'm not certain they would receive the same treatment as Biles is getting (and she is right to get it for a multitude of reasons). 

[kairparavel]

15 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

I would be curious to see how people would react if before game 6 of the NBA Finals Giannis or Paul, the two major stars for each team, said they weren't playing due to mental health concerns. I'm not certain they would receive the same treatment as Biles is getting (and she is right to get it for a multitude of reasons). 

The difference in reaction and reception is based on one's view of athletes - human beings or commodities. 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

17 minutes ago, kairparavel said:

The difference in reaction and reception is based on one's view of athletes - human beings or commodities. 

I think gender does play some role here, and I’m not sure how their teammates and peers would react to sitting out a championship game.

[DireWolfSpirit]

4 hours ago, Tywin et al. said:

I would be curious to see how people would react if before game 6 of the NBA Finals Giannis or Paul, the two major stars for each team, said they weren't playing due to mental health concerns. I'm not certain they would receive the same treatment as Biles is getting (and she is right to get it for a multitude of reasons). 

Didn't Kyrie Irving sit out games this year for exactly this, there were points where he refused to play despite having no physical injury, in recent history I thought?

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

33 minutes ago, DireWolfSpirit said:

Didn't Kyrie Irving sit out games this year for exactly this, there were points where he refused to play despite having no physical injury, in recent history I thought?

Yes, and the responses were mixed with I believe the negative ones being more dominate. He also didn’t help himself by being caught partying at some point during one of his sabbaticals. However, it’s not exactly the same because that happened during the season and load management is already kind of accepted by many fans. Doing it in the Finals would be different though. I know what the reaction would have been five years ago, but I’m not exactly sure what it would be like today.

[BigFatCoward]

Sounds like it was gymnastics version of the 'yips' rather than specifically MH issues (though it may be triggered by something else, I don't know for certain either way as of yet).

The danger involved as described means she absolutely shouldn't compete.

[Maltaran]

33 minutes ago, BigFatCoward said:

Sounds like it was gymnastics version of the 'yips' rather than specifically MH issues (though it may be triggered by something else, I don't know for certain either way as of yet).

The danger involved as described means she absolutely shouldn't compete.

I’m not sure if you can draw a fixed line between mental health and the yips - it’s still a psychological thing even if it’s just temporary and as you say there may be some deeper underlying cause.

On other sportsmen with mental health issues, isn’t that why Trescothick retired from international cricket? 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

2 hours ago, Maltaran said:

I’m not sure if you can draw a fixed line between mental health and the yips - it’s still a psychological thing even if it’s just temporary and as you say there may be some deeper underlying cause.

On other sportsmen with mental health issues, isn’t that why Trescothick retired from international cricket? 

It's not always temporary. There's was a really good pitcher in baseball who for a long time simply couldn't throw the ball to first base and every opponent knew it and would try to exploit it. 

The difference here is that this is so dangerous. It's easy to forget because of how amazingly talented these gymnasts are that they could easily break their necks if they're just slightly off. It was smart of her to pull out.

[QuietColours]

My understanding of the yips is that it's basically a mental wall--can be stress provoked or can come out of nowhere--that prevents players from putting the ball where they're aiming. Is that accurate?

In gymnastics, your body is the ball.

The twisties tends to refer to two different things (or both). They're general spontaneous, can be brought on by stress, are definitely made worse by stress. One thing that they are is a loss of air sense--you're flipping, and you have absolutely no idea where the floor is. If you watch the video of Biles' vault, you can see her scan the ceiling even before she looks to the right, looking for the floor there first. If she had pushed through to floor, this could have been made even worse--the ceiling and the floor in the arena are the same color, making it harder for even gymnasts at their best to spot properly. The twisties can also refer to your body simply not doing the twists you tell it. You go to do a straight flip, and you throw a half. You go to do a double, you only do a 1.5. Not because you bailed, your body simply is not responding to what your brain tells it. '88 Olympian Missy Marlowe describes it as having a non-serious stroke; your body simply is not responding to what your brain is telling it.

When this happens when you're ten feet in the air, the consequences can be catastrophic. The best case scenario is that you crash badly, maybe break something, probably don't land feet first (which also means you don't get credit for the skill you did). The worst case is paralysis and death--if you've never heard of them, you can read about Elena Mukhina, Julissa Gomez, Sang Lan, and Melanie Coleman. Mukhina and Gomez both knew they were doing skills that were unsafe for them, that they didn't have the awareness to do properly, and didn't feel like they had the agency to refuse their coaches. Sang and Coleman were doing skills they were comfortable with and got disoriented in the air just once.

Gomez's coach is actually in Tokyo--he's the coach of the two alternates who were isolated/quarantined for COVID/exposure. I hope he's told Simone she's doing the right thing.

Thegymter.net reports that is wasn't just vault--Simone could do a double layout, but she couldn't do a full-twisting double back tuck (her beam dismount and one of her 'easier' floor skills). And the twisties are totally unpredictable--Simone could wake up tomorrow and be completely fine. Or it could take her months, having to literally go relearn doing a backward roll on floor without twisting. Both are equally probable. I really hope it's the first one and we see her in at least a couple of the finals. For what it's worth, vault and bars finals are Sunday, floor is Monday, and beam is Tuesday. Reserves train up until the competition starts and can be put in literally minutes before. So that's how long she has to decide. I'm just glad she know she has the agency to make that decision.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

Holy Finke! What a come back!

[ithanos]

2 hours ago, QuietColours said:

The twisties tends to refer to two different things (or both). They're general spontaneous, can be brought on by stress, are definitely made worse by stress. One thing that they are is a loss of air sense--you're flipping, and you have absolutely no idea where the floor is. If you watch the video of Biles' vault, you can see her scan the ceiling even before she looks to the right, looking for the floor there first. If she had pushed through to floor, this could have been made even worse--the ceiling and the floor in the arena are the same color, making it harder for even gymnasts at their best to spot properly. The twisties can also refer to your body simply not doing the twists you tell it. You go to do a straight flip, and you throw a half. You go to do a double, you only do a 1.5. Not because you bailed, your body simply is not responding to what your brain tells it. '88 Olympian Missy Marlowe describes it as having a non-serious stroke; your body simply is not responding to what your brain is telling it.

Fascinating, never knew this. Downunder, twisties are a cheese curl, corn-based snack food

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

Woot! Fellow Saint Paul native Suni Lee takes gold in Women's all-around!!!

[QuietColours]

11 hours ago, Tywin et al. said:

Woot! Fellow Saint Paul native Suni Lee takes gold in Women's all-around!!!

That was an amazing final! Suni has be improving so much and peaked perfectly. She's the first women's AA champion of Asian descent (unless one of the Soviets identified that way and I don't know). Rebeca Andrade is Brazil's first ever Olympic medal in women's gymnastics. And watching Angelina Melnikova grow from the devastated baby of the 2016 team to the leader here and with an individual all around medal. And Urazova--she wasn't supposed to be eligible here, and to get so close!

Other historic finishes: Nina Derwael beat her own record for Belgium's best finish (from 8th to 6th), and Jessica Gadirova has GB's best ever finish at 10th, and that was with a fall. Both she and Jennifer (13th, with a fall-equivalent) are going to be stars. And Murakami Mai's 5th was the best ever for the Japanese women.

And I'm sorry, I'm gushing on all the forums I'm on today. I'm so happy and proud of them.

 

[Winterfell is Burning]

Just a correction- Rebeca Andrade is Brazil's first medal in the women's gymnastics, it had some with the men. It was also great to see her doing so well because she struggled with injuries a lot and if the games were last year, she would have to miss them.

[QuietColours]

29 minutes ago, Winterfell is Burning said:

Just a correction- Rebeca Andrade is Brazil's first medal in the women's gymnastics, it had some with the men. It was also great to see her doing so well because she struggled with injuries a lot and if the games were last year, she would have to miss them.

You are correct--edited to fact check. And yeah--seeing her come back after three ACL tears is incredible