U.S. Politics Independance Day edition

[argonak]

47 minutes ago, larrytheimp said:

when did they become aware of this?  isn't this ostensibly something they've been planning for since 2010 or so?  the Democratic party doesn't actually care enough about this to fight for it.  

wow!  researching ,politicking, and and crafting is hard?  you'd think there would have been a bunch of NGOs, and interested MOCs ready to move in what was a big plank of the president's platform.  

See here's an honest answer.

Americans say they support health care.  But for about 1/2 of them what they mean is they want healthcare for themselves, not for "lazy minorities."

[DMC]

3 hours ago, larrytheimp said:

Is there going to be any real effort from the Biden administration to give us a public option?  

I'm not optimistic.

I think the haul the leadership is trying to make just getting the current reconciliation bill over the finish line elucidates how difficult it'd be to also include a public option.  Maybe if Manchin wasn't the pivotal vote, but to be that cliche guy, elections have consequences.  The public option went bye-bye when they couldn't pick up two or three more seats in the Senate (and probably the House too for that matter).

[Paladin of Ice]

1 hour ago, argonak said:

Americans say they support health care.  But for about 1/2 of them what they mean is they want healthcare for themselves, not for "lazy minorities."

Or anyone else, really. There are many, many Americans who would welcome programs and reforms that help them personally, but become suspicious of it and reject it if it helps literally anyone else, which gets translated in their minds as “I have to pay for myself and them too?!”

Tell them something helps racial or religious minorities and the door slams shut immediately. Even if the lack of a program hurts them, it’s worth it if not having it hurts minorities/liberals/LGBTQ people/<insert latest conservative boogeyman here> more. (Or at least they think it does.)

[IheartIheartTesla]

Yeah, incrementalism is going to be the mantra for the next 3.5 years (thanks, Manchin!), so my attitude right now is we need to take all the increments we can get.

[HoodedCrow]

Saw extremely sympathetic, articulate and brave capitol police testify about the events of the Jan 6 the insurrection.

[OnionAhaiReborn]

1 hour ago, IheartIheartTesla said:

Yeah, incrementalism is going to be the mantra for the next 3.5 years (thanks, Manchin!), so my attitude right now is we need to take all the increments we can get.

There is always a Joe Manchin to point to as the proximate cause, but the truth is that the opposition to substantive change runs deep in the Democratic Party. Incrementalism is going to be the mantra until the many problems going unaddressed develop into major crises. 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

5 hours ago, larrytheimp said:

when did they become aware of this?  isn't this ostensibly something they've been planning for since 2010 or so?  the Democratic party doesn't actually care enough about this to fight for it.  

wow!  researching ,politicking, and and crafting is hard?  you'd think there would have been a bunch of NGOs, and interested MOCs ready to move in what was a big plank of the president's platform.  

Why pick a losing fight though? It's not going to pass and become law before the midterms, so what good would it do? Democrats would be dealt a serious loss, the base would be disappointed and Republicans could spin it in a number of favorable ways for themselves. Given how difficult 2022 is already going to be, why make it even harder on themselves? Right now we just have to accept that Democrats are going to get three big reconciliation bills from this Congress and hopefully fill as many vacant judicial spots as possible. I doubt there will be any other serious victories worth talking about at length.

2 hours ago, Paladin of Ice said:

Or anyone else, really. There are many, many Americans who would welcome programs and reforms that help them personally, but become suspicious of it and reject it if it helps literally anyone else, which gets translated in their minds as “I have to pay for myself and them too?!”

Tell them something helps racial or religious minorities and the door slams shut immediately. Even if the lack of a program hurts them, it’s worth it if not having it hurts minorities/liberals/LGBTQ people/<insert latest conservative boogeyman here> more. (Or at least they think it does.)

On top of this, there are a lot of programs that Americans want, but they can't bothered to pay for them. It's really no different then when as a kid, everyone on my block wanted to pave the alley over, but when asked to put up their share of the costs almost everyone said no. And so it always remained an eyesore until I moved away. 

1 hour ago, IheartIheartTesla said:

Yeah, incrementalism is going to be the mantra for the next 3.5 years (thanks, Manchin!), so my attitude right now is we need to take all the increments we can get.

Incrementalism is the default in American politics. Rare are the chances to make sweeping changes, and if you try for it, you best not miss.

[DMC]

28 minutes ago, OnionAhaiReborn said:

There is always a Joe Manchin to point to as the proximate cause, but the truth is that the opposition to substantive change runs deep in the Democratic Party.

Depends on what you mean by substantive change, but I don't think this is true by and large.  The vanishing moderates means only Manchin and Tester are left as red state Dems in the Senate.  Pretty much the same story in the House.  Most everybody else in the caucus would probably be game for a public option - or at least their constituencies would - but that would require some breathing room on the pivotal vote.

[Larry of the Lawn]

1 hour ago, Tywin et al. said:

Why pick a losing fight though? It's not going to pass and become law before the midterms, so what good would it do? Democrats would be dealt a serious loss, the base would be disappointed and Republicans could spin it in a number of favorable ways for themselves. Given how difficult 2022 is already going to be, why make it even harder on themselves? Right now we just have to accept that Democrats are going to get three big reconciliation bills from this Congress and hopefully fill as many vacant judicial spots as possible. I doubt there will be any other serious victories worth talking about at length.

On top of this, there are a lot of programs that Americans want, but they can't bothered to pay for them. It's really no different then when as a kid, everyone on my block wanted to pave the alley over, but when asked to put up their share of the costs almost everyone said no. And so it always remained an eyesore until I moved away. 

Incrementalism is the default in American politics. Rare are the chances to make sweeping changes, and if you try for it, you best not miss.

it's only a losing fight if you make it into one.  if Biden came out enthusiastically pushing for a public option, which is a popular thing, Manchin and co would have to come along.  They could try to put it in an appropriations bill.  they could do anything to signal they give a shit and are actually trying to solve problems instead of just look good and get re-elected.  

Same with addressing climate change - they're already hacking away at what little the infrastructure deal included in that regard.  The Dems are barely better than the GOP and that isn't saying much.  When are they going to have Congress and the presidency again?  I understand it's a hairline majority but, fuck, at least show a little bit of love.

[Kalbear]

23 minutes ago, larrytheimp said:

it's only a losing fight if you make it into one.  if Biden came out enthusiastically pushing for a public option, which is a popular thing, Manchin and co would have to come along.  They could try to put it in an appropriations bill.  they could do anything to signal they give a shit and are actually trying to solve problems instead of just look good and get re-elected.  

Again, no, and we know this because they've already tried this with infrastructure and voting rights and those didn't work. Manchin is not going to be threatened this way because it isn't a threat to him. 

And doing a public option is definitely not in the interest of his constituency, nor is just cramming through things with a Democratic senate. 

23 minutes ago, larrytheimp said:

Same with addressing climate change - they're already hacking away at what little the infrastructure deal included in that regard.  The Dems are barely better than the GOP and that isn't saying much.  When are they going to have Congress and the presidency again?  I understand it's a hairline majority but, fuck, at least show a little bit of love.

I'm not sure how you want to show love when that love showing almost certainly guarantees you get nothing at all. 

[Week]

They couldn't get a $15 minimum wage or Voting Rights done. Both way more urgent, obviously needed, and supported.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

45 minutes ago, larrytheimp said:

it's only a losing fight if you make it into one.  if Biden came out enthusiastically pushing for a public option, which is a popular thing, Manchin and co would have to come along.  They could try to put it in an appropriations bill.  they could do anything to signal they give a shit and are actually trying to solve problems instead of just look good and get re-elected.  

No, it's a losing fight because we know how this will play out before the fight even begins. If you pursue legislation that everyone knows is DoA before it's even written, all you're doing is wasting time while giving people a false sense of hope, and when the inevitable failure comes what will you have accomplished? 

Quote

Same with addressing climate change - they're already hacking away at what little the infrastructure deal included in that regard.  The Dems are barely better than the GOP and that isn't saying much.  When are they going to have Congress and the presidency again?  I understand it's a hairline majority but, fuck, at least show a little bit of love.

I wouldn't say that at all. They're just playing within the rules of the game. Most Democrats want the things you're bringing up, but just because they want them doesn't mean there's a path right now to accomplishing them, and there's a good chance the negative backlash from failing would give Republicans more power which obviously even lessens the chances of accomplishing those things.

[Larry of the Lawn]

this world is so fucked

[argonak]

6 minutes ago, larrytheimp said:

this world is so fucked

In the long run, nothing matters and our sun is going to burn out.  The important thing is to stick with things and fight for every inch anyway, for here and now is all we have.

We haven't failed until we've stopped trying.

[Larry of the Lawn]

41 minutes ago, Kaligator said:

Again, no, and we know this because they've already tried this with infrastructure and voting rights and those didn't work. Manchin is not going to be threatened this way because it isn't a threat to him. 

And doing a public option is definitely not in the interest of his constituency, nor is just cramming through things with a Democratic senate. 

I'm not sure how you want to show love when that love showing almost certainly guarantees you get nothing at all. 

How is a public option not in the interest of his constituency? 13% of West Virginians are uninsured.  Get people to knock on doors.

Just now, argonak said:

In the long run, nothing matters and our sun is going to burn out.  The important thing is to stick with things and fight for every inch.

We haven't failed until we've stopped trying.

Yeah well nobody's fighting for shit.  That's entirely my point

[HoodedCrow]

Went to Faux and disliked things. Will I get kicked off:)?

Phoned an anti vax ish group and told them what I thought about spiritual irresponsibility. Probably did nothing, but I used Statistcs. She went duh and pretended that she didn’t know about the pandemic.
 

So, any other ideas? I would accept scipts!

[Kalbear]

1 minute ago, larrytheimp said:

How is a public option not in the interest of his constituency? 13% of West Virginians are uninsured.  Get people to knock on doors.

Y'all  don't know West Virginians that well, then. Those folks certainly aren't going to cotton to government folks going over and walking up to them and asking if they'd like government insurance. 

A public option is absolutely not what they say they want. They want jobs, and they want to be able to afford to die (which was literally a billboard in West Virginia), but they don't want more taxes or more government intervention, at least a lot of them don't. 

11 minutes ago, larrytheimp said:

this world is so fucked

Well, yes. It's a real issue, especially given the US' overlarge place in it. 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

1 hour ago, Kaligator said:

Well, yes. It's a real issue, especially given the US' overlarge place in it. 

Eh, if we're saying the world is fucked, right now the US is hardly the only country to blame. China won't do anything on the climate unless the rest of the world ignores every other bad thing they're doing and Brazil is actively destroying the much needed Amazon rainforest. The sad truth is so many with power across the world simply don't care.

[TrackerNeil]

2 hours ago, larrytheimp said:

How is a public option not in the interest of his constituency? 13% of West Virginians are uninsured.  Get people to knock on doors.

Uninsured people are not necessarily a natural constituency for a public option. To you and me that seems nuts, sure, but people are weird about their political priorities. Just because a policy directly benefits them doesn't mean they'll support it. 

I don't think most Americans reward good policies or punish bad ones, except in the most extreme cases, like the botched invasion of Iraq. Sad to say, within eight years Americans will ignore the solid GOP track record of failure and corruption and put a Republican back in the White House no matter what Democrats do. To my mind, that means Democrats should do whatever they can, however they can, while they have the power.