Why is Marwyn making the long journey to meet Dany?

[Mister Smikes]

27 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

The point being that even sinister gods don't always demand a blood sacrifice.

Well then, if that's the point, it is a very dubious example.  The Black Goat is considered an aspect of the Many-Faced God, and the Black Goat definitely demands blood sacrifice, including (on special occasions) human sacrifice.   Also, the faceless men consider their assassinations to be a sacrament to their god, and the distinction between that and "human sacrifice" seems more semantic than real.  Also, their use of the dead faces of their victims looks suspiciously like it might be a kind of blood magic to me.

But if your point is only that queer gods (who demand sacrifice) do not necessarily demand blood sacrifice, well okay, fair enough.  But it seems to me that I am reading all the clues together, and you are taking them in isolation.

Quote

She'll have to square it with the Great Shepherd, but her stated justification is that the world has been saved from the Dothraki Stallion.

It is very postmodern of you to assume that it is up to her to decide what god or gods will be her judge.

But you touch on a theme -- the idea that the end justifies the means.  Mel too, justifies human sacrifice, by her desire to defeat the Great Other.   The Great Other seems to accept human sacrifice of sorts as well.  As does the Storm God.  But perhaps Rh'llor and the Great Other and the Storm God are just three more aspects of the Many Faced God of Death.  

Quote

I am interested in an evil Marwyn, just not really seeing it yet. I'm certain he has studied both blood magic and necromancy (he is professor of magic after all) - but that is scholarship, not necessarily practical. He's almost certainly studied dragonlore as well, and there's no practical for that.

Well, I guess we'll just have to wait and see, then.

[StarksInTheNorth]

What I meant by "as if they are fact" is how your original comment stated all your claims as if they were fact and officially in the text, rather than speculation with evidence. You've used the word "obvious(ly)" five times in a single comment but none of your claims are actually obvious. It's obvious to say that Daenerys and dragons, as it's an event that occurred. It's obvious to say that Jaime and Cersei have a conflicted, messy relationship because they both have shown their anger and ardor in equal measure.

It is not so obvious to say that Marwyn and the Alchemist are in league in the present timeline, or ever have been. You base this claim off an assertion that Marwyn would have asked true Pate to leave the room. Yet we know little of their relationship prior to Pate's prologue or about what events have conspired since then. There are any number of explanations for why Marwyn would keep not!Pate present without jumping to the farfetched "they're planning to kill Sam and raise dragons from stone." If a young acolyte expressed an interest in seeing the glass candle or hearing about his work, why would Marwyn deny him the chance to see it? And it would draw more suspicion to ask Pate to leave while Sam is talking, rather than keeping him there. Etc.

Besides this one incident and Marwyn's association with Mirri, Qyburn, and others, you have not cited any statements from the text of ASOIAF that suggest he has any reason to lie to Sam, any desire to wake stone dragons, or any interest in magicing kingsblood. He has knowledge of certain incidents, yes, but that does not lead to the supposed immediate or obvious corollaries to any of your assertions.

I never said that Randyll Tarly's associations with warlocks made it okay, only that its an example of their magics not going as expected. Warlocks are neither good nor evil, and neither is any character in ASOIAF except perhaps the Others. GRRM has frequently commented that he doesn't write characters in one extreme, but writes those that are grey and tangled knots. But my point was that the Marwyn would likely know the success rates or have studied them, rather than immediately jumping to using them himself.

You seem to be deliberately misreading what I said. I stated that Marwyn is interested in the dark magic, but not that he does dark magic. As @Springwatch said, studying is not practicing. You can study and discuss something without doing it yourself. Or else most fans of these books are probably way more interested in their siblings than they should be.

Finally, the only way of thinking that we explicitly know Marwyn had endorsed from Qyburn was Qyburn's curiosity and the question he asked. That could have been on a philosophical level or just a general encouragement of questions. A brief association between characters is not sufficient to lead to the extrapolation that they both do the exact same thing. Not every man who rides with a knight is a squire and not every man who encourages curiosity is a user of dark magic.

[Mister Smikes]

15 hours ago, StarksInTheNorth said:

What I meant by "as if they are fact" is how your original comment stated all your claims as if they were fact and officially in the text, rather than speculation with evidence.

I don't like this kind if talk.  The thread asks for opinions and I gave mine.  If there was any confusion about whose opinions I was expressing, or what my opinion's were based on, I have done my best to clarify.  Time to move on.

Quote

You've used the word "obvious(ly)" five times in a single comment but none of your claims are actually obvious.

They are obvious to me.  May I humbly suggest you leave me to express my own opinions in my own words?  You are perfectly free to disagree.

Certainly, they were obvious, at least as possibilities, as things that occurred to me on first read.  To me, it always seemed that AFFC ended on a cliffhanger, with Sam's life in danger.  "'I'm Pate', said the other, like the pig boy.'"  [DAH DAH DAH [ominous music]]  Can I prove absolutely that Sam is about to be offed by a faceless man and his body dumped in a river on Marwyn's orders?  No.  As with many cliffhangers, he may turn out to be fine.  But I am still surprised that so many regulars here are so oblivious to any possibility that Sam is any danger at all.  

Quote

It is not so obvious to say that Marwyn and the Alchemist are in league in the present timeline, or ever have been. You base this claim off an assertion that Marwyn would have asked true Pate to leave the room.

Yes.  And I haven't seen any coherent counterargument.

Quote

Yet we know little of their relationship prior to Pate's prologue or about what events have conspired since then. There are any number of explanations for why Marwyn would keep not!Pate present without jumping to the farfetched "they're planning to kill Sam and raise dragons from stone."

For the present, let's just stick with my conclusion that "Marwyn and the Alchemist are in league", since that is what you are challenging as baseless.   Any speculations beyond that are obviously going to be more tentative, and any predictions of the future I make are obviously only theories..

Quote

If a young acolyte expressed an interest in seeing the glass candle or hearing about his work, why would Marwyn deny him the chance to see it?

No reason, and this has nothing to do with my objection.

Quote

And it would draw more suspicion to ask Pate to leave while Sam is talking, rather than keeping him there. Etc.

That's absolutely ridiculous.  Nothing could evoke more suspicion than allowing Pate to actually overhear the conversation.  Marwyn is an archmaester.  Pate is a failed novice, whose job is to change Margrave's diapers, because that's all he is good for.  If Marwyn wants to be nice to the useless Pate, and show Pate glass candles like the charitable humanitarian he obviously is, I suppose he is free to do so, but Marwyn has absolute authority to order him away so he can talk privately with another person, or do anything else he wants to do, and he does not owe Pate any explanations whatsoever.  Anyhow, Marwyn knew that Sam was coming, because of his glass candles, which is apparently why he sent the sand snake to intercept him.  It was perfectly within his power to dismiss Pate before Sam arrived.

Quote

Besides this one incident and Marwyn's association with Mirri, Qyburn, and others, you have not cited any statements from the text of ASOIAF that suggest he has any reason to lie to Sam, any desire to wake stone dragons, or any interest in magicing kingsblood.

Well, you acknowledge the association with Mirri and Qyburn.  In addition, I also gave the fact that the first thing Marwyn did, after he finished his interrogation of Sam is to head for the Cinnamon Wind, where Sam left the books of lore, the pickled kingsblood corpse, and the kingsblood baby.  Once could infer from this a certain level of interest.

As for "motives to lie", Aemon (who we have reason to trust) wanted Sam to talk to the maesters of the Citadel, and Marwyn (who we have no reason to trust) wants, by his own admission, to stop Sam from talking to the maesters of the Citadel.

Marwyn also spied on Sam using glass candles, and sent the sand snake to lie in wait for him.   Nothing creepy about that, I guess.

Quote

I never said that Randyll Tarly's associations with warlocks made it okay, only that its an example of their magics not going as expected.

I'm happy to agree with you that magic does not necessarily go as expected.  Moving on, I hope

Quote

Warlocks are neither good nor evil, and neither is any character in ASOIAF except perhaps the Others.

A rather nihilistic interpretation.  GRRM has denied that his books are meant to be nihilistic, but who knows?  Maybe that's just the sort of thing that a nihilist would say.  

Quote

GRRM has frequently commented that he doesn't write characters in one extreme, but writes those that are grey and tangled knots.

"Shades of grey", as a metaphor for a blend of good and evil,  is a meaningless concept if "black" and "white", as metaphors for good and evil, are also meaningless concepts.  "The heart at war with itself" is also a meaningless concept if the choices characters make have no moral relevance.  Anyhow, Marwyn is not a central POV character, and it is perfectly possible that he is simply a villain, like Ramsay Bolton and Littlefinger and Gregor Clegane and the Bloody Mummers.  

Quote

You seem to be deliberately misreading what I said. I stated that Marwyn is interested in the dark magic, but not that he does dark magic.

Sacrificing to queer gods sounds suspiciously like some kind of magic to me.  Using glass candles to see afar, which Marwyn is doing, is also supposed to something that only sorcerers can do.  I suppose your quibble will be that although he clearly studies dark sorcery, and clearly practices some kind of sorcery, I cannot prove that he practices DARK sorcery.   Fair enough.  You are playing divide and conquer with the clues.  But it seems to me that, even if this is only a hint, and not absolute proof, it is a fairly obvious hint.  If you want more, I guess you'll just have to wait for TWOW.

Quote

As @Springwatch said, studying is not practicing. You can study and discuss something without doing it yourself. Or else most fans of these books are probably way more interested in their siblings than they should be.

Finally, the only way of thinking that we explicitly know Marwyn had endorsed from Qyburn was Qyburn's curiosity and the question he asked. That could have been on a philosophical level or just a general encouragement of questions. A brief association between characters is not sufficient to lead to the extrapolation that they both do the exact same thing. Not every man who rides with a knight is a squire and not every man who encourages curiosity is a user of dark magic.

Again, I am following the hints, and you are playing divide-and-conquer with the hints.  And again, if you want absolute proof, you must wait for Winds of Winter.  In the meantime, even if I cannot provide proof that he is a villain, I don't see any reason to trust him either.   

"Don't worry, Samwell.  You don't have to worry about Maester Aemon's dying instructions.  I, Archmaester Marwyn, am your new best buddy.  Just sit back, relax, and let me handle everything.  I've got everything under control." 

[Rondo]

On 7/9/2021 at 12:19 PM, The Hoare said:

Marwyn is the guy that doesnt trust prophecies at all. It's Aemon that thought Dany was the hero

Daenerys doesn't just have prophecies to support her.  She has her three dragons.  The proof of who she is, Azor Ahai.  All Rhaegar and Egg had were faith.  

[The Hoare]

1 hour ago, Rondo said:

Daenerys doesn't just have prophecies to support her.  She has her three dragons.  The proof of who she is, Azor Ahai.  All Rhaegar and Egg had were faith.  

That's what Aemon believed, not Marwyn

Spoiler

Gorghan of Old Ghis once wrote that a prophecy is like a treacherous woman. She takes your member in her mouth, and you moan with the pleasure of it and think, how sweet, how fine, how good this is... and then her teeth snap shut and your moans turn to screams. That is the nature of prophecy, said Gorghan. Prophecy will bite your prick off every time.

 

[Targaryen Restoration]

On 7/6/2021 at 4:46 AM, Falcon2909 said:

Marwyn is currently travelling by ship to meet Dany. But why make the journey? 

 

What man wouldn't. She is Daenerys Targaryen the monarch of Westeros.  Ruler of Meereen and a Khaleesi of the Dothraki.  Only a fool would not want to meet Dany.  Little Aegon will regret his decision. 

 

[Darth Sidious]

Marwyn is an adventurous sort. Others of his order are content to study books. Not him. He looks for new knowledge. It’s not like he hasn’t gone on dangerous travels before. This is what he does.  

[KingintheNorth4]

Marwyn probably doesn't know how to speak through it or wasn't able to properly master it during his travels out east.

[Only 89 selfies today]

11 hours ago, KingintheNorth4 said:

Marwyn probably doesn't know how to speak through it or wasn't able to properly master it during his travels out east.

A candle  is not a precise communication device.  Transmitting messages in the form of dreams is very crude even by the standards of telegrams.  Glass Candles?  Zoom they are not. 

[Only 89 selfies today]

On 7/28/2021 at 10:59 PM, Rondo said:

Daenerys doesn't just have prophecies to support her.  She has her three dragons.  The proof of who she is, Azor Ahai.  All Rhaegar and Egg had were faith.  

Daenerys is the princess who was promised.  Marwyn would have realized from what he heard.  He has more than vague prophecies to work with because of the dragons.  She is the real deal. 

[Only 89 selfies today]

On 7/29/2021 at 3:18 PM, Targaryen Restoration said:

Little Aegon will regret his decision. 

His decision to go on ahead without her?  I feel you are right.  The lad will regret that fatal mistake on his part. 

[The Lord of the Crossing]

On 7/6/2021 at 4:46 AM, Falcon2909 said:

Marwyn is currently travelling by ship to meet Dany. But why make the journey? 

Dany is a big deal.  Marwyn can serve her better by going to her. 

On 7/6/2021 at 4:46 AM, Falcon2909 said:

Since he has managed to light a glass candle he should be able to use it to talk to Dany like Quaithe does. He doesn't need to make the lengthy, risky voyage to meet her. He can advise her though his glass candle.

It's better to serve Her Grace in person. 

[Son of Man]

On 7/6/2021 at 4:46 AM, Falcon2909 said:

Marwyn is currently travelling by ship to meet Dany. But why make the journey? 

Since he has managed to light a glass candle he should be able to use it to talk to Dany like Quaithe does. He doesn't need to make the lengthy, risky voyage to meet her. He can advise her though his glass candle.

Archmaester Marwyn is George Martin written in.  He will be the wise adviser to Daenerys.  He's Martin and Merlin combined to serve and advise the heroine who resurrected dragons from stone eggs.  He has to be there in person. 

[Mister Smikes]

On 8/21/2021 at 9:11 AM, Son of Man said:

Archmaester Marwyn is George Martin written in. 

I thought that was Quentyn.  (Some people thought it was Tyrion, before Tyrion started raping and murdering people right and left).

On 8/21/2021 at 9:11 AM, Son of Man said:

He will be the wise adviser to Daenerys.  He's Martin and Merlin combined to serve and advise the heroine who resurrected dragons from stone eggs.  He has to be there in person. 

Magic is suspect in the GRRM-verse.   It always has a price, or so says GRRM in interviews.  It would make sense that the magicians are suspect as well.  

But GRRM has spoken glowingly of the ideals of knighthood.

[Bowen 747]

On 8/20/2021 at 8:34 PM, The Lord of the Crossing said:

It's better to serve Her Grace in person

yes

[Bowen 747]

Quaithe, Marwyn, and Tyrion have pieces of information that will be important to Dany.  Quaithe is about the future, Marwyn the past, and Tyrion the politics back home. 

[Mister Smikes]

14 hours ago, Bowen 747 said:

Quaithe, Marwyn, and Tyrion have pieces of information that will be important to Dany.  Quaithe is about the future, Marwyn the past, and Tyrion the politics back home. 

What is Daario about?

 

[Falcon2909]

On 8/24/2021 at 3:18 PM, Bowen 747 said:

Quaithe, Marwyn, and Tyrion have pieces of information that will be important to Dany.  Quaithe is about the future, Marwyn the past, and Tyrion the politics back home. 

what sort of advice does marwyn for her?

[Falcon2909]

On 8/22/2021 at 2:11 AM, Son of Man said:

Archmaester Marwyn is George Martin written in.  He will be the wise adviser to Daenerys.  He's Martin and Merlin combined to serve and advise the heroine who resurrected dragons from stone eggs.  He has to be there in person. 

i thought Sam was GRRM's self-insert

[Mister Smikes]

2 hours ago, Falcon2909 said:

i thought Sam was GRRM's self-insert

Well ... in a moment of humility he said he was more like Sam than other characters that he might rather identify with.  That's not what folks normally have in mind when they say "self-insert".