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Moqorro: Friend or Foe?


Canon Claude

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2 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

 

Side note, I do think it's funny that you see Thoros as heroic, I always picture him a kind of a drunk coward.

 

That seems unjust. Thoros always seemed reckless to me; he charges headlong into combat with a flaming sword, whether it's a giant brawl or it's the siege of Pyke. Drunk, yes, but he's certainly no coward. He and Beric kept the Brotherhood Without Banners together, and while Thoros was certainly a fat wastrel in the start of the story, he's more than redeemed himself when he's busy protecting the smallfolk in a middle of a destructive and pointless war.

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18 hours ago, Canon Claude said:

To be fair, this is a story based on unreliable narration, and GRRM has been known to forget Renly’s eye colour and Jeyne Westerling’s appearance.

It may be reliable narration. In a story filled with characters, who possess and plot such grand deceptions, one should not judge a book by its cover. :) 

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11 hours ago, Aejohn the Conqueroo said:

I think the question about Moqorro comes down to whether he is lying to Vic or just wrong. That horn's been bound already, it's Euron's. If it could be transferred easily he wouldn't have left it in Vic's possession. So, the way I see it Moqorro isn't Vic's friend but he's happy to be thought of as such while he manipulates him. Is he in league with Euron or does he see Vic as a weak link that can be exploited to get the horn from Euron? I suspect the latter, but the whole the glass candles are burning in the house of Urrathon Night-Walker bit in CoK could open some possibilities, or at least lines of communication/ manipulation between the Red Priests and Euron (if he's Urrathon in the first place...)

I didn't think about that. I guess Moqorro could be wrong, but I suppose he just seems to have a lot of gravitas as a character. So I suspect it's more likely, as you say, he's lying to him. I can't see Vic surviving for too much longer.

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17 hours ago, Floki of the Ironborn said:

That seems unjust. Thoros always seemed reckless to me; he charges headlong into combat with a flaming sword, whether it's a giant brawl or it's the siege of Pyke. Drunk, yes, but he's certainly no coward. He and Beric kept the Brotherhood Without Banners together, and while Thoros was certainly a fat wastrel in the start of the story, he's more than redeemed himself when he's busy protecting the smallfolk in a middle of a destructive and pointless war.

Ya you aren’t wrong about the battle bravery… first through the gap at Pyke and all that.

coward does seem unfair.

I guess lost might be better, or aimless. Lacking personal conviction and courage much in the same way as Robert. Looking for an easy out, drinking too much, etc.

maybe emotional coward, as opposed to a physical one… Idk

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The comments that consider Moqorro alongside of the other priests and priestesses of R'hllor are starting to turn some rusty cogs in my brain. Maybe we can figure out Moqorro and get a better sense of the purposes played by Melisandre, Thoros and Benerro if we look for things they have in common or at other details that could enlighten us.

One of my latest suspicions is that we are supposed to compare The Others with Dany, with her imminent invasion force comprised of Dothraki warriors, The Unsullied and sellsword companies. The followers of R'hllor are spreading the notion that Dany is Azor Ahai (except Melisandre, who believes Stannis plays that role). So examination of the people surrounding The Others may also help us to understand Moqorro and his fellow priests/priestesses. 

Othor / Thoros

Othor was the name of the wighted Night's Watch brother who attacked Jon Snow in the Lord Commander's bed chamber. Othor tried to reach his hand down Jon's throat. Jon defeated Othor with flaming draperies and help from the direwolf, Ghost, but his hand was injured in the process. 

The catspaw was the man who attacked Catelyn in Bran's bed chamber. She defeated him with her bare hands and help from the direwolf, Summer, but her hands were injured in the process. 

Thoros is the man who delivers the "last kiss," a death rite involving breathing fire into the mouth and lungs of a dead follower of R'hllor. He performs this ritual with Ser Beric who, in turn, delivers the last kiss to Catelyn, reviving her dead body and turning her into Lady Stoneheart. 

Jon Snow and Catelyn have been set up as antagonists, with Catelyn even articulating her wish that Jon Snow had been paralyzed instead of Bran. Could the roles played in their stories by Othor and Thoros give us another hint about the ice/fire dynamic in their relationship? Lady Stoneheart teams up with the Brotherhood Without Banners, who have largely become followers of R'hllor after the miraculous rebirths of Ser Beric. Jon Snow does not worship The Others, but he seems to have chosen a life surrounded by ice and snow. He also obeys Lord Commander Mormont when he is told that the Night's Watch turns a blind eye to Craster's sacrifice to The Others of his baby sons.

The detail of Thoros breathing fire into a dead person's throat and Othor jamming his icy dead hand down Jon's throat seems like a deliberate clue for us.

Potential wordplay around Thoros / Othor and "roots" raises the possibility that the old gods are also part of the comparison. It wouldn't surprise me if "oath" and "Roose" are also linked to the same line of wordplay.

Horns

Several comments here have pointed out that Moqorro's interest in Victarion may be related to the dragonbinding horn that he carries. We know that Mance and the Free Folk have been working tirelessly to find Joramun's horn, said to have the power to bring down the Wall. Melisandre burned a big horn that was found among the possessions of the Free Folk but that was apparently a decoy. Many readers suspect that the (apparently) broken horn Jon Snow found with the obsidian cache is the real horn of Joramun. Last we knew, that horn was carried by Sam Tarly to Oldtown. 

I expect I am not alone in my suspicion that these horns won't work unless the right person blows them at the right time and in the right way. A man died at the kings moot after blowing the dragon horn and we are not led to believe that any effective dragonbinding resulted from his effort. We know that the Night's Watch uses three blasts on a horn to signal the approach of The Others, however. It is possible that the single blow at the kings moot is the first of three necessary blasts to achieve the dragon binding (or summoning) result. 

Hand Injuries 

I noted the injuries connected with Jon and Catelyn's encounters with Othor and the Catspaw. (Granted, the catspaw does not appear to be a R'hllor follower but he does handle a dragonbone dagger, with dragons strongly associated with fire. The strong parallels between Othor and the catspaw / Thoros combination are my reason for including the catspaw in this analysis. I hope there will be clearer insights later to show us why the catspaw was involved in the parallel attack on Catelyn.)

Moqorro, of course, find acceptance from Victarion after curing a festering wound on the hand of the Ironborn captain. Moqorro may have suffered his own "hand" wound when two of his "fingers" are blown off the ship The Selaesori Qhoran during a storm. (Tyrion nicknamed his acolytes "the five fingers.")

There are many hand injuries in ASOIAF so it is difficult to know where comparisons might begin and end. At one point, I felt people with hand injuries were those most loyal to kings in the story: Davos is loyal to Stannis; Great Jon Umber is loyal to Robb; Coldhands sacrifices everything to help Bran; Qhorin Halfhand allows Jon Snow to kill him in order to advance the spy mission among the wildlings. The list might even include Theon, whose fingers are stripped of their flesh by Ramsay Snow. The closest example I could think of for Joffrey is when he allows a singer to choose whether he will lose his fingers or his tongue as punishment for a song implying that Cersei killed Robert. We never learn what choice the singer made. (In The Hedge Knight, Aerion "Brightfire" Targaryen breaks a finger of Tanselle, the puppeteer, sparking the conflict with Ser Duncan the Tall.)

I suspect we should also examine the guilt carried by Aeron Greyjoy, who ended up killing his brother through an infected cut during the "finger dancing" game played among the Ironborn. In my reading of the literary subtext, the Greyjoy brothers are sometimes jumbled together for purposes of creating parallels with other character arcs in the novels. Also from the subtext, I believe that Aeron has already crowned Theon as the rightful king of the Iron Islands.

To better understand Moqorro, should we focus only on people who cure hand injuries? Does that leave out the important clue involving his acolyte "fingers" being blown off the ship during a storm?

Balon Greyjoy tortured and killed a maester who failed to cure the injured hand of his brother, Urrigon. He had fingers cut from the maester's hand and sewn back on, identical to the treatment he had prescribed for Urrigon. So the successful treatment of Victarion's hand by Moqorro stands in contrast to the unsuccessful treatment by this maester. A maester also tried and failed to treat Victarion's injured hand before the arrival of Moqorro. Where the earlier treatment further divided the Iron Born followers of the drowned god from the seven gods, Victarion is at least partially converted to R'hllor and decides to henceforth worship him alongside the drowned god. 

Old Nan and Maester Luwin treat Catelyn after her hand injury. Maester Aemon treats Jon's injury but he also finds relief by putting his burned hand in a puddle of ice water. 

Qyburn treats Jaime's maimed arm, preventing the infection from spreading to his arm. 

Davos carries his severed fingers in a bag for luck, but he loses the bag when he is swallowed up by the Blackwater, miraculously emerging on a small island. Did Melisandre play a role in both persuading Stannis to maim Davos and in healing the severed stumps of his fingers? If so, it might fit with the association of R'hllor priests and the healing of hand injuries. Davos doesn't like Melisandre and doesn't indicate that she played a role in either aspect of his maiming or healing. 

Like Davos, Moqorro miraculously survives drowning. He is picked up by a Iron Born ship called Grief whose captain is nicknamed The Vole. If there is wordplay here, I wonder whether "Fire" (with a leftover letter G) and "Love" are hidden in the ship and captain's names. Or. Hmm. Maybe they combine to form "fire + glove" in GRRM's game of wordplay clues. (See a discussion of gloves in the next section.)

For many of the characters with injured hands, we don't know who treated their wounds or healed them. Maybe this undermines the idea that R'hllor -related characters are associated with hand injuries (particularly severed fingers) or with healing those injuries. Or maybe GRRM deliberately leaves out the story of how Qhoran Halfhand or Great Jon recovered because the hand-healing stories are reserved for specific parallel stories he has constructed.

And then there's this:

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The knight nodded. "The red temple buys them as children and makes them priests or temple prostitutes or warriors. Look there." He pointed at the steps, where a line of men in ornate armor and orange cloaks stood before the temple's doors, clasping spears with points like writhing flames. "The Fiery Hand. The Lord of Light's sacred soldiers, defenders of the temple."

Fire knights. "And how many fingers does this hand have, pray?"

"One thousand. Never more, and never less. A new flame is kindled for every one that gutters out."

Benerro jabbed a finger at the moon, made a fist, spread his hands wide. When his voice rose in a crescendo, flames leapt from his fingers with a sudden whoosh and made the crowd gasp. The priest could trace fiery letters in the air as well. Valyrian glyphs. Tyrion recognized perhaps two in ten; one was Doom, the other Darkness. (ADwD, Tyrion VII)

The guards of the temple are compared to fingers of a hand. When one "finger" dies ("gutters out") another is kindled to take its place. More healing of fingers by R'hllor's believers. And then we see flames leaping from Benerro's fingers: if "words" and "sword" are a wordplay pair, perhaps this is evidence that Benerro has Lightbringer, in the form of flaming words. 

Lack of Hand Injuries

To protect his hand, Stannis wears a special fire-proof glove when he handles the fake Lightbringer sword that Melisandre has created for him. 

Arya receives a pair of fingerless gloves from the sailors aboard the Titan's Daughter. She likes them but they are among the possessions she throws in the canal when the Kindly Man tells her she must divest of possessions associated with her old identity. Do the fingerless gloves compare with bandages worn by Catelyn or Jon Snow after their hand injuries? Are the fingerless gloves a sort of mummer's version of a hand injury? Arya will eventually be associated with mummers during her stay in Braavos. 

We also see a number of lobstered gauntlets mentioned in the stories, including one that hid the key stolen by Pate in the Citadel. These seem like he best way to prevent a hand injury. (And yet Jeor Mormont crushes a crab claw - a literal crab claw, not the armor named for a crustacean - with his bare/bear hand. Hmm. Does the attack by the Others at The Fist also count as a hand injury?)

More Mormonts

Ser Jorah is associated with Thoros because the two of them were the first men over the wall at Pyke when Greyjoy's Rebellion was quashed. Each man has also won a tournament. 

Ser Jorah is associated with Moqorro because they were both passengers on the ill-fated Selaesori Qhoran. 

(By contrast, Melisandre arrives at Castle Black only after the death of Jeor Mormont.) 

To book passage on the right ship, Jorah knew he needed to bring a gift to The Widow of the Waterfront. He carefully selected gloves. How does this fit with the gloves worn by Stannis and Arya, if at all? 

I believe that one of the essential ingredients in hatching Dany's dragons was the presence of Ser Jorah beside the pyre. I don't know what magic he carries - perhaps he is somehow fire proof as a result of his magic wall-crossing with Thoros or after his marriage to a Hightower daughter. (The Hightower seems like a giant glass candle to me and may confer some mojo on people who live there.) 

Black and White

I have to get going, but I think there may be significance in the contrast between the white skin of Benerro and the black skin of Moqorro. Just as the House of Black and White has one ebony door and one weirwood door, the contrasting colors of these priests is probably relevant. Tyrion sees Benerro appearing to cast a spell involving doom and darkness before he sends Moqorro on the ship to meet up with Dany. If the religion of R'hllor has the potential for both light (fire) and darkness (shadow), it appears that shadow has been sent to the Mother of Dragons. Maybe Moqorro is the equivalent of the "shadow weapons" Melisandre used to kill Renly and Ser Cortnay Penrose. 

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50 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

Ya you aren’t wrong about the battle bravery… first through the gap at Pyke and all that.

coward does seem unfair.

I guess lost might be better, or aimless. Lacking personal conviction and courage much in the same way as Robert. Looking for an easy out, drinking too much, etc.

maybe emotional coward, as opposed to a physical one… Idk

You might be picking up on a theme - 'Only cowards fight with fire' says Sandor (of course).

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26 minutes ago, Seams said:

I have to get going, but I think there may be significance in the contrast between the white skin of Benerro and the black skin of Moqorro.

GRRM is going to get in awful trouble if he sets up a theme involving skin colour...  anyway, it seems to me that Moqorro is a burnt man, and maybe Mel and Benerro are burning white hot - and both types seem valued by R'hllorism.

The Undying are burning too - thanks to Drogon - with fiery fingers and hands: are they consumed by R'hllor? They danced as the flames consumed them; they staggered and writhed and spun and raised blazing hands on high, their fingers as bright as torches.

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3 hours ago, Springwatch said:

GRRM is going to get in awful trouble if he sets up a theme involving skin colour... 

It could be very touchy. Sort of like using sexual violence in a symbolic way. He would never do that because it would be offensive and controversial.

Edit: Perhaps I should add, I don't think GRRM would make a value judgment about skin color. His themes are all about balance: summer / winter, night / day, wet / dry, fire / ice, light / shadow. He doesn't say that one is good and one is bad. They are two sides of the same coin and one cannot exist without the other. 

3 hours ago, Springwatch said:

The Undying are burning too - thanks to Drogon - with fiery fingers and hands: are they consumed by R'hllor? They danced as the flames consumed them; they staggered and writhed and spun and raised blazing hands on high, their fingers as bright as torches.

Yes. There are definitely links between the fire god, the sword Lightbringer, the comet and the dragons. If the Undying represent the past, I think we see Dany's role as the new Mother of Dragons burning the dry, dumb past and bringing about a rebirth. The dragons are under her control, not under the control of the old, obsolete House Targaryen.

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On 7/6/2021 at 9:32 PM, Wunjō said:

Moqorro can accurately reads his prophetic visions, the others can't.

We don't know that. I mean, how many data points do we have, like about two? Every other seer, from every school of magic, has to work through plenty of ambiguous junk visions. Occasionally there are clear ones too, e.g. the vision of Riverrun surrounded by flames in the shape of lions. But usually not.

On 7/6/2021 at 10:46 PM, Treason's in Season said:

I think the issue we're faced with when we're trying to analyse the intentions of R'hllor is the fact that he's a god. The only entity higher than him in the pecking order is GRRM.

Yes. We don't know what R'hllor actually is - but if we're going to discuss him at all, we might as well use the model of an actual god, because that's 'his' current function in the story. 'He' answers prayers for specific visions, for example.

Quote

He allowed Mel to have shadow babies and Thoros to revive Beric because those things serve a purpose. I don't think he gifted those powers to the individuals out of favouritism or love.

Sure, R'hllor almost certainly isn't a 'real' god, but he gives the appearance of one, and certain people have the appearance of being favoured by the god - the ability to do fire magic, or see visions. That includes Moqorro. He's no different to the rest. We can't assume that Mel and Thoros are mere puppets, but Moqorro is a powerful free agent - where would that assumption come from? Because he's a proper manly man? ETA: I think Moqorro appeals to our unconscious biases, not so much sexism, but he projects his image as an authority figure, only showing complete confidence, unlike the other two.

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11 hours ago, Springwatch said:

he projects his image as an authority figure, only showing complete confidence, unlike the other two.

It would be interesting to get a chapter from Moqorro's POV. I doubt it'll happen, because as with characters like LF and Varys, he knows too much; a chapter heading with his name on it would be like a "dark and full of spoilers" warning.

On the other hand, perhaps he is doing just what you say: projecting; acting as if he knows a good deal more than he does. Certainly I'd argue that has worked for someone like Varys (he knows a lot, obviously. I'd be the last person to deny that. But some theorists see him as some kind of omnipotent being who knows what you're having for dinner tomorrow), so who's to say Moqorro isn't doing something similar? It could benefit him in getting Vic to do what he wants- in turn, benefitting the red priests' intentions for Dany.

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A battle between fire and ice has been going on since the beginning of time.  The religions are just symptoms of this never ending battle.  Mellisandre wants to sacrifice people to the flame but that is not different from what the First Men have done for so long. Bran's ancestors were into human sacrifice.  Just because Ned didn't carry out the custom doesn't mean Rickard wasn't doing it. Craster, a First Man, gives his children to the Others.  The Gods are a thirsty bunch.  We can expect people to change religions. Brynden Rivers has. Somebody from the north will switch to Rhllor.  

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  • 2 weeks later...

I don't think because fire magic works we should think of Rh'llor as an active God. The Dapmhair uses CPR as proof of his God or not. George has said that the gods will remain ambigous the same as in our world. 

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People are taking Quaithe at her word way too much. Her warnings end up hurting Daenarys more than they don’t. The warning about Quentin led, at least subconsciously to her rejecting him. He never held any ill will to her and died trying to prove himself worthy of her by riding a dragon. He didn’t try to kidnap it. I’ve no doubt Daenarys will make enemies of Moqoro and Victarion as well due to the warning, culminating in murder of Aegon later down the line, who will end up being the real Aegon. 

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On 7/23/2021 at 9:10 AM, Darzin said:

I don't think because fire magic works we should think of Rh'llor as an active God.

Magic is really just a highly ritualised prayer. Magicians asking gods, spirits, demons or whatever to help them.

If magic works but there's no god, then who's answering the sorcerer's prayers?

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14 hours ago, The Hoare said:

Magic is really just a highly ritualised prayer. Magicians asking gods, spirits, demons or whatever to help them.

If magic works but there's no god, then who's answering the sorcerer's prayers?

They could simply be laws of nature within the universe of asoiaf. Sing in the correct pitch and some may reach the sonic wave frequency required to break glass. with charcoal and saltpeter you can create black powder which is expositive. through language we convey through airwaves complex ideas. 

All that is to say there are natural phenomenon that are in fact fantastical but explainable/observable physically. fire magic may simply be part of the physics in this universe, and like many things, are explained away as from god by people trying to figure out the mysteries of the world.

Though I do think there is so god or pseudo godly force behind these powers myself. Written above is simply the alternative.

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On 7/6/2021 at 9:31 AM, Canon Claude said:

One of the big mysteries to me is the way that we’re supposed to view the religion of Rhlorr. It’s clearly a well established faith in Essos, though it’s new to Westeros. There seems to be proof that it’s legit, given the magic powers that it’s priests and priestesses wield. But speaking of said people, they also seem to be too diverse to make a full opinion on the faith in general, whether they’re good guys or bad. Melisandre has done some highly questionable things, while Thoros of Myr is much more benevolent and heroic. 
 

And then there’s Moqorro. He’s more powerful and self assured than either of the former two, but it’s too early to say anything concrete about him. He’s clearly cool with helping Victarion, even when he does horrible things, but we also don’t fully know if he really is “helping” Victarion. Unless I’m missing something about him, anyway.

Any thoughts or predictions about the Dark Flame? 

Just because the magic is real doesn't mean that the gods are real.  But I suppose somebody who can use magic is a kind of goddess or god to those who lack the ability.  A devoutly religious man is both friend and foe.  It depends on whether you share his beliefs.  The Starks, Craster, and the followers of the Old Gods are barbarians but not to those who share their faith. 

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On 7/24/2021 at 9:19 AM, Hrulj said:

He never held any ill will to her and died trying to prove himself worthy of her by riding a dragon. He didn’t try to kidnap it.

That's not completely accurate.

He died in an attempt to honor his father and not go back to Dorne empty-handed...not in an attempt to prove himself worthy to Daenerys.

Ser Barristan had the right of it.

On 7/24/2021 at 9:19 AM, Hrulj said:

I’ve no doubt Daenarys will make enemies of Moqoro and Victarion as well due to the warning, culminating in murder of Aegon later down the line, who will end up being the real Aegon. 

Actually, I think Daenerys will be marrying Victarion.

When Tyrion meets Benerro, I remember reading something that stood out to me. It was like "some allies are more dangerous than enemies" and I think that will be what happens with Daenerys. Tyrion, the red priests (including Moqorro), the Tattered Prince, the Dothraki, Jorah, etc. fit the bill perfectly.

On 7/6/2021 at 9:56 AM, The_Lone_Wolf said:

Pascal's quote on religion 

  Hide contents

Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction.

The missionaries did no good for the natives. Lived in harmony with nature for centuries, the convertors introduce all 'invasive' diseases and claim to bring medicine from God. Similarly with language, culture, food and traditions. 

I find Pascal's quote (and general stance) on religion pretty ironic (and thus, hilarious) seeing as his very name is a deeply religious reference.

It's not an entirely accurate statement either...

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On 7/29/2021 at 2:40 AM, The Hoare said:

Magic is really just a highly ritualised prayer. Magicians asking gods, spirits, demons or whatever to help them.

If magic works but there's no god, then who's answering the sorcerer's prayers?

Perhaps no one. 

Some would say that the prayers,  rituals, drugs (shade of the evening), and training (Faceless Men) are all just tools to focus the mind. As with other human skills, there are some people who have a natural talent that allows them to excel at using magic. Those are the ones who become the most powerful sorcerers, be they warlock or woods witch.

In light of all the different religions and sorcerers that we've read about, and all the skeptical warnings about the unreliability of prophecies, I'd be kind of disappointed if it turns out that one of those religions has all the answers, and that theirs is the One True God. Remember how, in ACOK, everyone that had their own theory about the meaning of the red comet, and they all thought it was a good omen for their religion or king/lord.

Sometimes I think that the whole Azor Ahai thing is a giant red herring, and there won't be any Prince That Was Promised. The Battle for the Dawn will be won by a collection of regular, un-prophesied people who manage to set aside their differences and work together without relying on any particular god or religion.

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9 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

I find Pascal's quote (and general stance) on religion pretty ironic (and thus, hilarious) seeing as his very name is a deeply religious reference.

Hey we don't get to choose our names like in the womb or outside, we don't even get our consent asked in being born so thats meh

9 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

It's not an entirely accurate statement either...

:lmao:

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