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Canon Claude

Moqorro: Friend or Foe?

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One of the big mysteries to me is the way that we’re supposed to view the religion of Rhlorr. It’s clearly a well established faith in Essos, though it’s new to Westeros. There seems to be proof that it’s legit, given the magic powers that it’s priests and priestesses wield. But speaking of said people, they also seem to be too diverse to make a full opinion on the faith in general, whether they’re good guys or bad. Melisandre has done some highly questionable things, while Thoros of Myr is much more benevolent and heroic. 
 

And then there’s Moqorro. He’s more powerful and self assured than either of the former two, but it’s too early to say anything concrete about him. He’s clearly cool with helping Victarion, even when he does horrible things, but we also don’t fully know if he really is “helping” Victarion. Unless I’m missing something about him, anyway.

Any thoughts or predictions about the Dark Flame? 

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Well, since he was sent by Benerro to help out Dany, I'm not 100% sure what he's doing hanging out with Victarion. But Moqorro is one heck of a prophet, so he probably sees something in Vic's future that benefits Dany in some way. Don't ask me what though.

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Posted (edited)

Aside from his actively helping a brute like Vic, Moqorro's eeriness also stems from Qaithe's warning to Dany that she must beware him. Of course, I don't know how trustworthy Qaithe herself is supposed to be, given that Quentyn Martell was the sun's son and he never had a malicious intentions on Daenerys.

So much of the story around Daenerys is up in the air, with so many morally ambiguous characters, that I honestly don't know what to make of it all. Moqorro is just one more piece of a jigsaw puzzle that we're putting together with blindfolds on.

If I had to make a guess, though, I'd say that Moqorro will be evil, but a necessary evil. Or maybe 'lawful evil' is the best term to describe him. The red priests seem to at least want to fight the Others, which so far seems to be the right thing for humanity to do, but they're using some really manipulative and unethical means to do so.

Edited by Floki of the Ironborn

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13 minutes ago, Floki of the Ironborn said:

Aside from his actively helping a brute like Vic, Moqorro's eeriness also stems from Qaithe's warning to Dany that she must beware him. Of course, I don't know how trustworthy Qaithe herself is supposed to be, given that Quentyn Martell was the sun's son and he never had a malicious intentions on Daenerys.

So much of the story around Daenerys is up in the air, with so many morally ambiguous characters, that I honestly don't know what to make of it all. Moqorro is just one more piece of a jigsaw puzzle that we're putting together with blindfolds on.

If I had to make a guess, though, I'd say that Moqorro will be evil, but a necessary evil. Or maybe 'lawful evil' is the best term to describe him. The red priests seem to at least want to fight the Others, which so far seems to be the right thing for humanity to do, but they're using some really manipulative and unethical means to do so.

I'll go with dangerous friend, certainly for Victarion and probably for Dany.  I don't entirely trust him because we don't know what Benerro's plan is for Dany or her dragons..  Or what will happen when Dragonbinder is used.

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Posted (edited)

Pascal's quote on religion 

Spoiler

Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction.

The missionaries did no good for the natives. Lived in harmony with nature for centuries, the convertors introduce all 'invasive' diseases and claim to bring medicine from God. Similarly with language, culture, food and traditions. 

Edited by The_Lone_Wolf

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1 hour ago, LynnS said:

I'll go with dangerous friend, certainly for Victarion and probably for Dany.  I don't entirely trust him because we don't know what Benerro's plan is for Dany or her dragons..  Or what will happen when Dragonbinder is used.

Well, according to Moqorro, Vic's the master of the horn (not a euphemism), but if Moqorro's up to something sneaky, I would assume Vic will either not get to use it, or, more likely, using it will benefit Moqorro's goals but not his own. This is assuming that he represents all the red priests, and is actually loyal to Benerro. I imagine he is, but it's always possible he isn't.

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5 hours ago, Floki of the Ironborn said:

Moqorro's eeriness also stems from Qaithe's warning to Dany that she must beware him. Of course, I don't know how trustworthy Qaithe herself is supposed to be, given that Quentyn Martell was the sun's son and he never had a malicious intentions on Daenerys.

Quentyn proposed to Dany and when she refused him, he decided to kidnap her children. Quaithe was right when she warned Dany against him. Thus Moqorro is also one of those people who will either cause harm to Dany, or is planning to do so.

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6 hours ago, Canon Claude said:

And then there’s Moqorro. He’s more powerful and self assured than either of the former two

I just don't get it why people are in such awe of Moqorro. Thoros has raised the dead. Moqorro hasn't done that. Mel has done two shadow baby assassinations, the Rattleshirt/Mance illusion, and she's sitting pretty at the Wall, at the frontier of the winter war, with AA Jon at her fingertips.

It feels like R'hllor loves the other pair much more than Moqorro. So what am I missing?

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17 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

I just don't get it why people are in such awe of Moqorro. Thoros has raised the dead. Moqorro hasn't done that. Mel has done two shadow baby assassinations, the Rattleshirt/Mance illusion, and she's sitting pretty at the Wall, at the frontier of the winter war, with AA Jon at her fingertips.

It feels like R'hllor loves the other pair much more than Moqorro. So what am I missing?

Moqorro can accurately reads his prophetic visions, the others can't.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Springwatch said:

It feels like R'hllor loves the other pair much more than Moqorro. So what am I missing?

I think the issue we're faced with when we're trying to analyse the intentions of R'hllor is the fact that he's a god. The only entity higher than him in the pecking order is GRRM.

1 hour ago, Springwatch said:

I just don't get it why people are in such awe of Moqorro. Thoros has raised the dead. Moqorro hasn't done that. Mel has done two shadow baby assassinations, the Rattleshirt/Mance illusion, and she's sitting pretty at the Wall, at the frontier of the winter war, with AA Jon at her fingertips.

He allowed Mel to have shadow babies and Thoros to revive Beric because those things serve a purpose. I don't think he gifted those powers to the individuals out of favouritism or love.

Edited by Treason's in Season

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There's a weird transformation in Moqorros' physical appearance. Perhaps it's nothing serious, though. I am referring to his tattoos: they are described differenly by Tyrion and by Vic. He got fished out of the sea, so probably it's sunburn. Or some Patchface clue.

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53 minutes ago, Jon Fossoway said:

There's a weird transformation in Moqorros' physical appearance. Perhaps it's nothing serious, though. I am referring to his tattoos: they are described differenly by Tyrion and by Vic. He got fished out of the sea, so probably it's sunburn. Or some Patchface clue.

To be fair, this is a story based on unreliable narration, and GRRM has been known to forget Renly’s eye colour and Jeyne Westerling’s appearance.

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16 hours ago, Canon Claude said:

One of the big mysteries to me is the way that we’re supposed to view the religion of Rhlorr. It’s clearly a well established faith in Essos, though it’s new to Westeros. There seems to be proof that it’s legit, given the magic powers that it’s priests and priestesses wield. But speaking of said people, they also seem to be too diverse to make a full opinion on the faith in general, whether they’re good guys or bad. Melisandre has done some highly questionable things, while Thoros of Myr is much more benevolent and heroic. 
 

And then there’s Moqorro. He’s more powerful and self assured than either of the former two, but it’s too early to say anything concrete about him. He’s clearly cool with helping Victarion, even when he does horrible things, but we also don’t fully know if he really is “helping” Victarion. Unless I’m missing something about him, anyway.

Any thoughts or predictions about the Dark Flame? 

Victarion has something valuable to offer the Dragon Queen.  A powerful fleet and a magic horn.  The value of the first is easy enough to see.  The horn is a wild card.  I don't think Victarion really understands the horn.  Moqorro, Marwyn, and Quaithe are the equivalent of the three wise kings of the bible who journeyed to meet a very special child.  Mo wants to serve Azor Ahai and that means he is a friend to the dragon.  He helps Vic because the iron captain is bringing something useful to AA. 

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Posted (edited)
16 hours ago, Treason's in Season said:

Well, according to Moqorro, Vic's the master of the horn (not a euphemism), but if Moqorro's up to something sneaky, I would assume Vic will either not get to use it, or, more likely, using it will benefit Moqorro's goals but not his own. This is assuming that he represents all the red priests, and is actually loyal to Benerro. I imagine he is, but it's always possible he isn't.

Exactly.  when Moqorro say's he's seen Victarion's 'glorious' future in the flres;  I'm reminded of Illyrio telling Viserys about the glorious future that awaits him in Westeros.  In other words, Moqorro is telling Victarion what he wants to hear, not what is going to happen.  He's playing to Victarion's ego and vanity while he moves him around for his own purposes. 

Edited by LynnS

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18 hours ago, The_Lone_Wolf said:

The missionaries did no good for the natives. Lived in harmony with nature for centuries, the convertors introduce all 'invasive' diseases and claim to bring medicine from God. Similarly with language, culture, food and traditions. 

This is rather an attack towards christianity and one of it's flaws than towards religion in general. Even as a non-religious person, I can tell you religions at least were necesarry and helpful. It's what made people decide what's good and what's bad (Without religion, you might not see murder a criminal act. Noone would). It's what shapes the moral codex of the entire world, and I'm talking about almost every religion. Shit happened and happens still due to religions, but it's not the only thing one should look at. (Believe me, I have the worst examples in my mind right now, and I still feel the same.)

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I think he's neither friend nor foe. I think he's just a man on a mission.

Moqorro got on the Qhoran even though he knew it would never reach its destination. He was floating in the sea for 10 days before he was fished out by an ironborn ship. I think he and Benerro used their visions to plan his course, and that Moqorro is still doing just that.

I think he'll use Victarion for his own ends and when he has no use for him, he will drop him. Dany is his endgame because of the prophecy. 

I think it will be interesting how he uses his visions going forward once he has connected with Dany. Is he going to lie about what he sees to make her do what he feels needs to be done?

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4 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

This is rather an attack towards christianity and one of it's flaws than towards religion in general.

Contextual. 

4 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

Even as a non-religious person, I can tell you religions at least were necesarry and helpful. It's what made people decide what's good and what's bad

Nah. I'm an athiest, yet have morals. Nihilism not got in that far. 

4 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

Without religion, you might not see murder a criminal act. Noone would).

Murder is criminal? Subjective. Law not equal to morals. I'd happily kill a pedo psychopath and sleep like a baby 

5 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

It's what shapes the moral codex of the entire world, and I'm talking about almost every religion.

Look at the criminals and tell me how much percentage are devout and irreligious. 

5 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

Shit happened and happens still due to religions, but it's not the only thing one should look at. (Believe me, I have the worst examples in my mind right now, and I still feel the same.)

This argument will derail this quite good thread. But I'm interested 

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3 hours ago, The_Lone_Wolf said:

Nah. I'm an athiest, yet have morals. Nihilism not got in that far. 

Lol, it's not about that. You've got your morals from the earlier generations, who got theirs from even earlier ones. And that goes on, unless the list stops, when people (probably a long time ago (In a galaxy far-far away)) did not have these morals. It's what kept and made people have the modern morals you live by. You can be atheist, you still won't like to be cheated on, or being robbed, etc... The human respect towards your parents comes from the earlier generations and their religious education. It's what they've been told. Whether it is the humans who formed the religion or the religion that formed the humans in different situations, one thing is clear. It made people behave according to the customs the given religion applied on them. For a simple example: In the past (I mean those religious times), having sex outside the wedlock was a sinful act and punishable as well. Yes, some people still did it, but it kept most people away from such a thing. This is why you don't accept to be cheated on. People didn't like it, and they made this part of the religion. Because noone liked to be cheated on, to be murdered, to be robbed, to be tricked, etc... (In normal cases).. They simply said instead: "God says cheating on your spouse is sinful, don't do that!" And so most people didn't do it. Then these people teached their children as well, and so on, unless we reached modern ages, when cheating became a shunned, but not a sinful act in the eye of a simple, non-religious person.

I'm not arguing if the world would be better with more religiusness in it (I don't feel like I can answer that to you, everyone should decide for themselves, tho I personally don't feel the need of it), but how you really don't give the credits to religions deserve for shaping the morality of the human race clearly tells how little you know about it, and I really mean no offense to you here. It's just that religions were a tool to keep this world together many-many times. 

3 hours ago, The_Lone_Wolf said:

Murder is criminal? Subjective. Law not equal to morals. I'd happily kill a pedo psychopath and sleep like a baby 

It's not the morals what make something criminal. It's the law, be it religious or not. But humanity most certainly created their religions based on their morality. And they based their law on their religion. Unga Bunga woman did not want his man to be killed by the neighbours, so she said "Killing bad" and she told the same to her children. But one of her child eassmarter and said "If you murder another one, you go bad place", and so Hell was created. And the agressive neighbour did not eant to go to hell, so he said "I kill no man, I not go to bad place". And this was good as far as people believed in it, but then it became the part of how you feel, so you need no religion to feel sinful for murdering someone.

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On 7/6/2021 at 10:19 AM, Treason's in Season said:

Well, according to Moqorro, Vic's the master of the horn (not a euphemism), but if Moqorro's up to something sneaky, I would assume Vic will either not get to use it, or, more likely, using it will benefit Moqorro's goals but not his own. This is assuming that he represents all the red priests, and is actually loyal to Benerro. I imagine he is, but it's always possible he isn't.

I think the question about Moqorro comes down to whether he is lying to Vic or just wrong. That horn's been bound already, it's Euron's. If it could be transferred easily he wouldn't have left it in Vic's possession. So, the way I see it Moqorro isn't Vic's friend but he's happy to be thought of as such while he manipulates him. Is he in league with Euron or does he see Vic as a weak link that can be exploited to get the horn from Euron? I suspect the latter, but the whole the glass candles are burning in the house of Urrathon Night-Walker bit in CoK could open some possibilities, or at least lines of communication/ manipulation between the Red Priests and Euron (if he's Urrathon in the first place...)

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On 7/6/2021 at 9:31 AM, Canon Claude said:

There seems to be proof that it’s legit, given the magic powers that it’s priests and priestesses wield.

I would argue that none of the magic powers we have seen are proof of a god, or that the red faith is legitimate... any more than the sun rising in the morning is proof of a sun god.

On 7/6/2021 at 9:31 AM, Canon Claude said:

But speaking of said people, they also seem to be too diverse to make a full opinion on the faith in general, whether they’re good guys or bad. Melisandre has done some highly questionable things, while Thoros of Myr is much more benevolent and heroic. 

And this I think is closer to the truth.

These people with power are still just people with human motives and flaws.

Side note, I do think it's funny that you see Thoros as heroic, I always picture him a kind of a drunk coward.

As for Moquorro, potentially our dark flame... you ask if he is a friend or foe. I have to ask, friend or foe to whom?

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