LØkI - see ya later, LØkIgator (Spoilers)

[Heartofice]

2 minutes ago, Werthead said:

There's a lot of theorising that the upcoming What If...? show, which I think is the next MCU show (Hawkeye doesn't land until the winter, IIRC), isn't actually a purely theoretical elseworlds scenario, but is an actual peek at the other universes and the variants who exist there.

Eternals is something of a high concept and Dr. Strange 2 and Ant-Man 3 look like they're directly following up on these series, so they look promising at least. Shang-Chi bringing in the real Mandarin could set up a lot of craziness as well.

Eternals  so far looks utterly cookie cutter, the concept might be high but everything else about it looks safe. Might just be the trailer which was really bad but I don’t have high hopes.

Potentially Dr Strange could push some boundaries, but they said that about the first one and it was very much a template movie 

[polishgenius]

35 minutes ago, JEORDHl said:

The execs at DC/WB whatever must be incandescently flummoxed and how effectively Marvel has instituted the live action cockblock. They’ve been beaten at every single turn. It’s amazing.

Tell them to hire me I'll sort them out. 




Anyway that episode was bizarre. It also was barely a finale. I mean, it was good, but it made the whole thing essentially a prologue.

I wonder if the Kang now openly in charge of the TVA is gonna be the one in Quantumania, or if Majors will be pulling dual-Kang-duty. Suppose that might also depend on whether season 2 comes out before Quantumania, which it could easily do.

Poor Loki, betrayed by Sylvie and lost his new best friend to timeline shenanigans.

 

About the discussion of the were-the-other-Kangs-there-all-along stuff-  the impression I got was this guy did prune all the alternative versions, not just isolate and hide them-  but it's time, so it stops mattering as soon as he stops pruning. The second he does that, alternate timelines sprout all the way back in history. They might not be the same variants of him that he defeated but they'll have histories just as developed as those.

[john]

It was pretty underwhelming plot wise. Everything we thought or predicted would happen happened and it did end up feeling very like a set up.

Luckily Majors performance was so good (i mean, I thought Hiddleston was good but that was immense) that it was still a highly entertaining episode. The ending in the new timeline was the most interesting bit. I don’t think time travel works if all the branches are active, he’s lucky he didn’t end up in alligator world.

[DaveSumm]

Wow, totally didn’t expect that from Kang. Great performance from Majors and a really interesting way to introduce a villain; by starting with possibly the only ‘good’ Kang before we meet the ones he was so keen to keep at bay.

It was so nearly a great series but man, the time stuff just doesn’t make sense. Did anyone catch Sylvie’s “I was pruned before you even existed”? What the fuck does that mean? When? 

So, Kang has been actively trimming branches to stop other versions of himself from existing. He hangs out at the ‘end of time’, passes through the ‘threshold’ of events he knows and into the unknown. But chronologically, we’re still at the end of time? So why are all the subsequent branches problematic? Is this the end of time or not? Why does all the work the TVA has done up till now not count for anything, why the sudden explosion of branches? And if the TVA’s work is still in progress, why aren’t there other Kangs running around now? 

And I don’t buy for a second it’s not ‘supposed’ to make sense cos it’s just a comic book show. Let’s not pretend the writers wouldn’t bite your hand off for a plot that holds water, if you make a series about time travel then that aspect is open to criticism just like any other part of the series.

[sifth]

So Kang is basically our new Thanos, I'm going to assume? Majors did an amazing job with the character, I just hope Marvel doesn't ruin this guy, since he's really cool in the comics; part of me is still pretty angry how screwed up Task Master, recently, lol

 

 

[Heartofice]

Yeah that was probably the most mesmerising performace I’ve ever seen in a marvel property, I just wanted him to talk forever. I’m basically going to need there to be a Kang Tv show as well as Kang movies now 

[polishgenius]

22 minutes ago, DaveSumm said:

He hangs out at the ‘end of time’, passes through the ‘threshold’ of events he knows and into the unknown.

 

The threshold was in his conversation with them. He could predict everything that got them in the door and as far as he's leading them along, but as soon as it gets to the part where he's offering them a choice, he can't predict what it'll be. The branches aren't problematic inherently, they're problematic coz Sylvie has no interest in pruning them once he's dead. 

The TVA can only do so much coz at the end of the day they're still at one level or another in the timestream - they might be in the quantum realm or something, we still need an explanation for the infinity stones not working, but they're not working from outside that system. Hell, for all we know the reason for that ending is not that 'our' Moebius had his past adjusted and doesn't exist anymore but that some of the many many branches include variant TVAs, which he's been sent into instead of the main one coz Sylvie wasn't being careful. But that'll hopefully be answered in season 2. 

 But at the end of the day you can hold time travel stories to the same standards of diligence as everything else, but eventually that just means surely time travel stories aren't for you. At least complicated ones. There isn't a way to make them make sense because time travel doesn't. 

[DMC]

2 hours ago, polishgenius said:

About the discussion of the were-the-other-Kangs-there-all-along stuff-  the impression I got was this guy did prune all the alternative versions, not just isolate and hide them-  but it's time, so it stops mattering as soon as he stops pruning. The second he does that, alternate timelines sprout all the way back in history. They might not be the same variants of him that he defeated but they'll have histories just as developed as those.

Yeah, this is probably the "best" explanation I can come up with, but it still strains credulity and requires further explanation (or is just more convenience than explanation).  So, Majors says Loki and Sylvie have two options - kill him and open the timeline to his dastardly variants, or takeover the TVA for him.  Ok, so Sylvie kills him, but Loki basically agrees and nearly instantly does try to "takeover" for him - and it appears so do, for that matter, the versions of Mobius and Hunter B-15 that don't recognize him.  But instead we get the Planet of the Apes ending which just raises myriad questions on where/when/whatever Loki actually is.

You can chalk it up to "time travel is just too hard," but ultimately it boils down to lazy writing.  And it's particularly glaring when you devote basically an entire episode to exposition and that exposition is self-contradictory and/or requires further explanation.  It makes the Nolans look straightforward.

[JGP]

29 minutes ago, DMC said:

Yeah, this is probably the "best" explanation I can come up with, but it still strains credulity and requires further explanation (or is just more convenience than explanation).  So, Majors says Loki and Sylvie have two options - kill him and open the timeline to his dastardly variants, or takeover the TVA for him.  Ok, so Sylvie kills him, but Loki basically agrees and nearly instantly does try to "takeover" for him - and it appears so do, for that matter, the versions of Mobius and Hunter B-15 that don't recognize him.  But instead we get the Planet of the Apes ending which just raises myriad questions on where/when/whatever Loki actually is.

You can chalk it up to "time travel is just too hard," but ultimately it boils down to lazy writing.  And it's particularly glaring when you devote basically an entire episode to exposition and that exposition is self-contradictory and/or requires further explanation.  It makes the Nolans look straightforward.

I get the frustration. Thing is I think a lot of people aren’t getting, or get but remain annoyed by, is Marvel’s intentionally duplicated their comics MO directly with their live action properties.

The MCU is more or less interconnected mini series [with perhaps an eventual ongoing series] with the films being the larger crossover events analogous to Annuals and whatnot [unless they’re establishing a new character or characters, perhaps] Essentially, they’re modestly contained but otherwise open ended teases to the next establishing series or movie, et so on.

Like the comics, one should be able to determine the general direction, but it’s a ride to get there. Some people definitely aren’t going to enjoy that, but if Marvel keeps it up it’s just going to keep expanding. It’ll be cool [for me] if the Phases end up having multiple Big Bads with parallel but occasionally crossing storylines. 

I suspect [thanks Lokis] one consequence of the multiverse-diffusion will be a relatively pain free jump into the Xmen, mutantkind, the Shiar, and so on, resulting with many fans [and new fans] wanting to collect them all-- which is no small part of the MCUs success, and the DCEUs biggest failure in comparison. 
 

/imo

 

edit: man, my phone made a mess of that

[DMC]

5 minutes ago, JEORDHl said:

It’ll be cool [for me] if the Phases end up having multiple Big Bads with parallel but occasionally crossing storylines. 
 

I suspect [thanks Lokis] one consequence of the multiverse-diffusion will be a relatively pain free jump into the Xmen

I will say one aspect I do like of this is that Majors could be playing multiple versions of Kang in the future, which based on that opening salvo has the potential to be a lot of fun.

And yes, certainly a benefit of the multiverse is it makes the introduction of the Xmen/mutants relatively simple and expedient.

[JGP]

Yeah, Majors is fantastic. I was impressed/ and became invested with his performance in Lovecraft Country [Jurnee Smollet too, also if not more of a standout] so the chops aren't in question, and he could have a long tenure in the MCU. Multiple but slightly different Kangs seeking dominance while being hunted by other Kangs to comedic fuckuppery, shit is making me chuckle just thinking about it. 

Doctor Doom was also a fantastic straight man to Kang's hijinks in the some of the comics [that I read] We need big bads, sure, but also the MCU needs a lot more villains.    

[Kalbear]

I love that they are leaning into kangs absurd narcissism and confidence and grandeur. He is super powerful and smart, and his big claim is that he wants everyone to witness the glory and success of Kang. Its a great bit of casting and a great view of their future - this isn't a super serious brooding villain like thanos, and they're really going into that. 

[Luzifer's right hand]

That was something different and I enjoyed a lot. Maybe the best Marvel thing I have ever seen. 

An awesome villain. 

[Knight of Ashes]

3 hours ago, DaveSumm said:

 

It was so nearly a great series but man, the time stuff just doesn’t make sense. Did anyone catch Sylvie’s “I was pruned before you even existed”? What the fuck does that mean? When? 

I rationalized that to mean she was taken before this Loki variant came into being.  But like I said, it's only a rationale to smooth things over in my mind.

[JGP]

23 minutes ago, Knight of Ashes said:

I rationalized that to mean she was taken before this Loki variant came into being.  But like I said, it's only a rationale to smooth things over in my mind.

Yeah, me too. But it’s firmly within the realm of plausible Syloki could’ve been hunkering down in apocalypses for a technically long ass time before the right branch and subsequen— wait a sec, I don’t remember, did the TVA reset Hiddloki’s branch?

[YMMV, but I think it’s a wicked mess lol]

[williamjm]

26 minutes ago, JEORDHl said:

Yeah, me too. But it’s firmly within the realm of plausible Syloki could’ve been hunkering down in apocalypses for a technically long ass time before the right branch and subsequen— wait a sec, I don’t remember, did the TVA reset Hiddloki’s branch?

If I remember correctly they're about to do the reset when they capture him in Mongolia.

[Jaxom 1974]

It is the actor playing Kang (great job keeping his appearance under wraps), but this is totally the Immortus version. Even the costume hints at that.

 

[Freshwater Spartan]

Pretty good show. I got a kick out of it and am in for season 2. The Spartan family was not impressed though. They didn't like the time travel elements and thought the pace was too slow. It looks like I'll be watching season 2 solo. I didn't know who Kang was. I thought I read a lot of Marvel comics when I was a kid but the last year of watching all of MCU with the family exposes how little I know.

[Corvinus85]

So I guess the big reveal was that there will be a season 2.  And Kang, but less of a surprise.

Jonathan Majors was excellent. I do have to wonder how I would see this episode if I didn't hear about the Kang casting for the next Ant-man, and didn't see all the theorizing here about Kang. There was so much exposition, it felt very Matrix Reloaded, but with a far superior performance and an interesting end. And Kang's PowerPoint was much more, ahem, polished than the Ancient One's in Endgame.

As I was watching the scene, I saw the fight between Loki and Sylvie coming. But I expected Kang to have something up his sleeve, revealing that two Loki's with different motivations was the only way for a third option. But not.

Like a few others here, I interpreted that the TVA where Loki ended up was a different construct created by a different Kang. But I am disappointed we didn't get to learn the origins of our Mobius. Still, another season with all these actors. Sign me up!!!!!!

I think the inconsistencies in time travel and the lapses in the TVA can be attribute to the fact that Kang, for all his intelligence and technology, is not perfect, still fallible. 

I would have expected an after credits where we see where Ravonna went. I assume she went to the 31st century to help out one of the Kang variants. But why the lie about three time-keepers? And what is up with the statues in Kang's house? There were four, but one was broken. hmm

[RumHam]

7 minutes ago, Corvinus85 said:

31st century to help out one of the Kang variants. 

It's kinda funny that it will apparently take humanity (everyone? I assume earth has regular contact with aliens now) another thousand years to discover what Dr. Strange and the sorcerers already know.