LØkI - see ya later, LØkIgator (Spoilers)

[SpaceChampion]

I don't think any other Kang variant exists until after He Who Remains is killed.  Alioth wasn't eating Kangs, because none existed to be pruned.  The objective with the TVA was to prune particular variants who would lead to Kang coming into existence, and probably left the variants with the Kang-less futures alone.  The Sacred Timeline is just the collection of timelines with no Kang.  The CGI for it didn't look like a single timeline, but more like a cable with multiple strands that all went the same way.  I think the whole Infinity Saga took place within it, without producing a Kang, but it wasn't a single timeline.

 

 

[Corvinus85]

And on that note, are the other two MCU shows technically part of the divergent multiverse caused by Kang's death and not the sacred timeline? I ask because the episode starts with all the voices of various people from the movies, it zooms out showing us the universe then sort of zooms back in but looks like showing us different universes, and one of the voices we distinctly here is Vision's line about love, which could be the scene where Agatha is forcing Wanda to relieve her life. 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

How much of the MCU do you need to catch up on before diving into Loki?

[DMC]

18 minutes ago, SpaceChampion said:

I don't think any other Kang variant exists until after He Who Remains is killed.  Alioth wasn't eating Kangs, because none existed to be pruned.  The objective with the TVA was to prune particular variants who would lead to Kang coming into existence, and probably left the variants with the Kang-less futures alone.  The Sacred Timeline is just the collection of timelines with no Kang. 

I mean, this contradicts basically everything He Who Remains said.  But of course maybe Sylvie's right and he's full of shit.

7 minutes ago, Corvinus85 said:

And on that note, are the other two MCU shows technically part of the divergent multiverse caused by Kang's death and not the sacred timeline?

I don't see any reason to think the other shows aren't part of the sacred timeline.  Maybe what Wanda is doing at the end of Wandavision would be a nexus event I guess.

2 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

How much of the MCU do you need to catch up on before diving into Loki?

If you saw Endgame you're fine.  Virtually nothing in the other two shows is germane (at least as far as we know at the end of the first season).

[RumHam]

10 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

How much of the MCU do you need to catch up on before diving into Loki?

Like DMC said, but also If you haven't watched Thor: Ragnorok, watch Thor: Ragnorok.  It's both relevant and great. 

[SpaceChampion]

46 minutes ago, DMC said:

I mean, this contradicts basically everything He Who Remains said.  But of course maybe Sylvie's right and he's full of shit.

Not at all, it's entirely consistent with what he said.

[DMC]

14 minutes ago, SpaceChampion said:

Not at all, it's entirely consistent with what he said.

He said for a time the different versions enjoyed a "narcissistic peace" wherein the Kangs shared technology and knowledge, then "all out war" erupted with each variant trying to preserve their universe and annihilate the other, then He harnessed Alioth's power to weaponize it in order to end the multiversal war, and finally he isolated "our" timeline and prevented any further branches via the TVA.

That obviously contradicts the notion no variant Kangs existed before He Who Remains was killed.  It also contradicts the notion the sacred timeline is a collection of timelines.  And it also explicitly states Alioth and its power were crucial to ending the multiversal war.  ETA:  Albeit he pointedly does not tell us how harnessing Alioth's power allowed him to end the war.

[SpaceChampion]

4 minutes ago, DMC said:

He said for a time the different versions enjoyed a "narcissistic peace" wherein the Kangs shared technology and knowledge, then "all out war" erupted with each variant trying to preserve their universe and annihilate the other, then He harnessed Alioth's power to weaponize it in order to end the multiversal war, and finally he isolated "our" timeline and prevented any further branches via the TVA.

That obviously contradicts the notion no variant Kangs existed before He Who Remains was killed.  It also contradicts the notion the sacred timeline is a collection of timelines.  And it also explicitly states Alioth and its power were crucial to ending the multiversal war.

Dude, before and after don't mean anything.  Yes, before all the variants existed, then after he stopped the war by preventing them from existing.  Alioth was key to preventing them from existing. What's hard to follow about that? 

[DMC]

1 minute ago, SpaceChampion said:

What's hard to follow about that?

It's hard to follow because you said no variant Kangs existed before He Who Remains was killed when He Who Remains literally says variant Kangs existed right before he was killed.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

1 hour ago, DMC said:

If you saw Endgame you're fine.  Virtually nothing in the other two shows is germane (at least as far as we know at the end of the first season).

I have, just started skipping a lot of movies in the middle of the Avengers run because there were just so many. And WanadaVision was okay, interesting concept for sure. Haven't bothered with FatWS. Shit, I haven't even seen Cap 2, now that I think about it. 

1 hour ago, RumHam said:

Like DMC said, but also If you haven't watched Thor: Ragnorok, watch Thor: Ragnorok.  It's both relevant and great. 

I have seen this one though. It was awesome! 

[DMC]

1 minute ago, Tywin et al. said:

Haven't bothered with FatWS. Shit, I haven't even seen Cap 2, now that I think about it. 

The Falcon show was meh.  Winter Soldier the movie is one of the MCU's best.

[SpaceChampion]

10 minutes ago, DMC said:

It's hard to follow because you said no variant Kangs existed before He Who Remains was killed when He Who Remains literally says variant Kangs existed right before he was killed.

Is the cat dead or alive?  Yes.

He gives the Lokis an option:  "You kill me and then you don't have just one devil, you have an infiite amount.  Or you two.  You two run the thing."   There is only one at the moment he spoke that.  Killing him creates an infinite amount because he's not there to give instructions to the TVA on who to prune to prevent Kangs from existing.  It isn't just Alioth preventing the other Kangs from existing, it's the bureaucracy.  They don't care about other variant existing except when it results in Kang existing.  That's the mission.

 

 

[DMC]

1 minute ago, SpaceChampion said:

He gives the Lokis an option:  "You kill me and then you don't have just one devil, you have an infiite amount.  Or you two.  You two run the thing."   There is only one at the moment he spoke that.  Killing him creates an infinite amount because he's not there to give instructions to the TVA on who to prune to prevent Kangs from existing.

If you're saying no variant Kangs existed within the Sacred Timeline before he was killed, well then yeah.  I agree and think that's kinda obvious. 

Or, if you're saying he "wiped them from existence" via Alioth's power to win the multiversal war, sure, that makes sense and is consistent.  I wouldn't say that means they "never" existed, but whatever that's just semantics.

[polishgenius]

I think part of the tricky thing here is that you have to accept a meta-timeline outside the timeline-timeline. Like for example for our characters in the movies and shows so far the multiverse will suddenly always have existed- it branched at every moment in history. But obviously since not everything is happening at once at the castle at the end of time, it must actually be an out-of-time dimension that runs on its own, higher, timeline level. 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

10 minutes ago, DMC said:

The Falcon show was meh.  Winter Soldier the movie is one of the MCU's best.

I know. That's the one I need to see first and foremost. Kind of unforgivable given I have Mickey+. 

[SpaceChampion]

1 minute ago, DMC said:

If you're saying no variant Kangs existed within the Sacred Timeline before he was killed, well then yeah.  I agree and think that's kinda obvious. 

Or, if you're saying he "wiped them from existence" via Alioth's power to win the multiversal war, sure, that makes sense and is consistent.  I wouldn't say that means they "never" existed, but whatever that's just semantics.

Right.  My larger point is he could not have collected all the Kangs and brought them to the Void and fed them to Alioth, because like Loki they probably would have defeated Alioth, reached him in the tower and killed him.  At least one would have.  He had to defeat them by preventing them from existing.  So he only fed people that if they had not been removed would create the future where a Kang existed.  Even the nice ones, probably.  Plus the Lokis, because he wanted a successor.

[JGP]

22 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Shit, I haven't even seen Cap 2, now that I think about it. 

Fix that, Ty. Subjective, sure, but in my view Winter Soldier is still the crown of the MCU films.

Edit: I didn’t see DMCs response. I’m like outraged tonight, soon as I saw it I was typing lol

[DMC]

2 minutes ago, SpaceChampion said:

He had to defeat them by preventing them from existing.  So he only fed people that if they had not been removed would create the future where a Kang existed.

Gotcha.  I'm still not clear on how preventing a Kang from existing in one universe would prevent the variant Kangs that existed (and eventually met each other) in other universes.  He refers to it as universes on top of universes, so collapsing that into one should be more difficult than that.  But whatever this is starting to make my head hurt..and I'm about to get high.

[RumHam]

10 minutes ago, DMC said:

Or, if you're saying he "wiped them from existence" via Alioth's power 

I think that's the idea of Alioth's power but oddly he leaves skeletons and debris when we see him devour things. 

3 minutes ago, SpaceChampion said:

Right.  My larger point is he could not have collected all the Kangs and brought them to the Void and fed them to Alioth, because like Loki they probably would have defeated Alioth, reached him in the tower and killed him. 

I think the idea is he killed them with Alioth wherever they were, Not that he was sending them to the void back then. Likely he was traveling to the rival kang's universes and unleashing Alioth. 

I love the idea that He Who Remains/Immortus had overseen the murder of literally countless beings by feeding them to his smoke dragon, and he was the lesser of countless evils and probably doing the right thing. 

[ithanos]

Wasn't convinced with the kiss, it seemed like Sylvie used it to fulfil a curiosity but mainly as a ruse to get to HWR's handpad which was conveniently left at the front of the table. B-15 mentioned before that Sylvie's all for vengeance, having been on the run for too long - but with that having been fulfilled, I look forward to seeing what she does next.

The events at HWR's castle felt like a Big End, the opposite of a Big Bang, which we'll likely revisit it again. Looks like the information he had Miss Minutes download to Renslayer's compad games the chances of a benevolent variant succeeding to the next Big End. Perhaps we'll get to see how that 4th statue gets destroyed next time. 
 
I wasn't expecting a 2nd season, for any of these shows. Didn't think the lead actors, being mainly known for their cinema works intended work on a TV series that extended to multiple seasons. Not complaining, I've enjoyed all of these works and Loki in particular.