LØkI - see ya later, LØkIgator (Spoilers)

[Kalbear]

In case it wasn't clear, the reset charges turn purple before they activate and wipe out things. I'm pretty sure that weaponizing Alioth wasn't just about leashing the monster- it was using some of what it can do, eating time and space, to eat whole multiverses. 

So my fanwank is that multiversal war has many many multiverses. HWR finds alioth and uses it to wipe out all other dangerous multiverses which have Kang that won't evolve into him- so basically all of them. Then when thats done, to ensure no other ones ever develop a threatening Kang he makes the TVA.

[DaveSumm]

2 hours ago, DMC said:

Gotcha.  I'm still not clear on how preventing a Kang from existing in one universe would prevent the variant Kangs that existed (and eventually met each other) in other universes.  He refers to it as universes on top of universes, so collapsing that into one should be more difficult than that.  But whatever this is starting to make my head hurt..and I'm about to get high.

There were a bunch of different universes with different Kangs, they all fought, so this Kang set up the TVA to go way back in the history of these other universes and manipulate them so that they didn’t produce Kangs. So ‘never existed’ is the right terminology I think. It gets a little muddy as I alluded to earlier with regard to how far along the mission the TVA actually are; the fact that he is He Who Remains implies they’ve finished, job done, pack up, go home.

As @polishgenius said though, for this to work you need a second dimension of time, meta-time. So, 2012 (st), Day One (mt), the Avengers win the Battle of NY. Great. 2012 (st), Day Two (mt), oh shit, Loki has escaped. It’s the same date on the sacred timeline but it also appears to have ‘transpired’ from the perspective of the TVA. That’s the only way I can rationalise the TVA’s continued efforts, and how Sylvie can drop those time grenades and they’re all “oh shit, look at these timelines branching”.

[DMC]

5 minutes ago, DaveSumm said:

so this Kang set up the TVA to go way back in the history of these other universes and manipulate them so that they didn’t produce Kangs. So ‘never existed’ is the right terminology I think.

Eh, they way he describes it he set up the TVA after establishing the sacred timeline.  I agree with others that Alioth "annihilated" all the other universes - that's the pretty clear implication from the way he describes it - but how it (he?) did that remains unclear.

[ithanos]

Natalie Holt's compositions for this series are lit! It's only brief, but i hope to hear more of this if its used as Kang's theme track going forward - it strikes the right mix of ominous ancient & future techno alien madness. 

[The Anti-Targ]

I swear I heard half a bar of Star Wars music in the opening credits for Ep 6. Or was I hearing a few notes from somewhere in the MCU's past and mistaking it for Star Wars. Wouldn't it be crazy if Disney decided screw everyone, we own them and we'll do what we want. Star Wars is now a universe in the MCU multiverse. Theoretically every property Disney owns and every property Disney doesn't own IS a universe in the MCU multiverse, because ultimately a multiverse contains every possible universe.

DC is a universe in the MCU multiverse, but Marvel is also a universe within the DC multiverse. Every universe is a member of every multiverse.

Also my reading up about Kang the Conqueror is that he's Nathaniel Richards the father of Reed Richards, right? I also assume Kang originates in the universe in which the MCU movies occur, which is why he preserves it as the sole timeline, and so will the F4. So does that mean we might be looking at a not totally white Reed Richards? Or will the MCU completely wipe any genetic ties between Kang and Reed?

Also, while the Ancient One is right, in principle, in her conversation with Bruce that taking an infinity stone out of it's timeline will create a branching timeline, she is wrong in fact, because the TVA would have been sent out to obliterate that timeline. She just had no clue about the TVA...or did she?

[RumHam]

1 hour ago, The Anti-Targ said:

I swear I heard half a bar of Star Wars music in the opening credits for Ep 6. Or was I hearing a few notes from somewhere in the MCU's past and mistaking it for Star Wars. Wouldn't it be crazy if Disney decided screw everyone, we own them and we'll do what we want. Star Wars is now a universe in the MCU multiverse

It wouldn't really matter if Star Wars was set in the main MCU universe, being that it happened so long ago in a galaxy far far away. But since the movies have been referenced in the MCU several times that would be weird. Though arguably no weirder than Samuel L Jackson and Nick Fury apparently existing in the MCU. 

1 hour ago, The Anti-Targ said:

Also my reading up about Kang the Conqueror is that he's Nathaniel Richards the father of Reed Richards, right? I also assume Kang originates in the universe in which the MCU movies occur, which is why he preserves it as the sole timeline, and so will the F4. So does that mean we might be looking at a not totally white Reed Richards? Or will the MCU completely wipe any genetic ties between Kang and Reed?

That can't be right, cause he's from the 31st century. I assumed he was a descendant. So they can still cast whoever they want as Sue and Reed.

1 hour ago, The Anti-Targ said:

Also, while the Ancient One is right, in principle, in her conversation with Bruce that taking an infinity stone out of it's timeline will create a branching timeline, she is wrong in fact, because the TVA would have been sent out to obliterate that timeline. She just had no clue about the TVA...or did she?

The TVA don't prune branches that are supposed to happen. My guess is (assuming this version of Kang is a Richards) that Reed or Sue were snapped so the events of Endgame had to happen to ensure He Who Remains came into existence.  Then towards the end he offers Loki and Sylvie a modified timeline where Loki kills Thanos so the snap never happens and Sylvie also exists. But he knows they won't accept that offer already. 

The weirdest part for me is that apparently all the TVA's failures, like Sylvie and Loki escaping and her setting off the time bombs were supposed to happen. All to get Sylvie and Loki in front of He Who Remains. 

[JGP]

2 minutes ago, RumHam said:

 

That can't be right, cause he's from the 31st century. I assumed he was a descendant. So they can still cast whoever they want as Sue and Reed.

 

In comic lore, yes. Kang is a 31st century descendant of the Richards. 

[Slurktan]

Obviously Kang was created first but I'm still amused that the next marvel big bad is Rick Sanchez.

[argonak]

10 hours ago, DMC said:

Eh, they way he describes it he set up the TVA after establishing the sacred timeline.  I agree with others that Alioth "annihilated" all the other universes - that's the pretty clear implication from the way he describes it - but how it (he?) did that remains unclear.

Yeah that was the only way I could rationalize it.  He used the Alioth as a bulldozer to eliminate all the alternate timeline dimensions, then setup the TVA to maintain things.  But he didn't want to give up the Alioth, so he keeps it at the end of time and just feeds it there.

And I also agree that we're dealing with multiple dimensions of time.  Our timeline is on 4 dimensions, but the TVA must be operating on a 5th, and Kang probably on a 6th (or whatever some quantum scientist can figure out). 

As to the episode, I'm disappointed and my wife was annoyed.  I didn't expect this to be a cliffhanger, and there really wasn't any sort of satisfactory conclusion for anyone.   Clearly they always expected a second season, and the recent "renewal" was just PR.

[Jaxom 1974]

2 hours ago, JEORDHl said:

In comic lore, yes. Kang is a 31st century descendant of the Richards. 

Or Doctor Doom...depending on which variation you're reading about...

[RumHam]

39 minutes ago, Slurktan said:

Obviously Kang was created first but I'm still amused that the next marvel big bad is Rick Sanchez.

Just a coincidence but Michael Waldron used to write for Rick and Morty. A Rick and Morty style post-credits scene of Alligathor and Alligator Odin discussing what happened to their Loki would have been hilarious. 

[Denvek]

36 minutes ago, Jaxom 1974 said:

Or Doctor Doom...depending on which variation you're reading about...

It's 1000 years in the future - why not both?

[DaveSumm]

What’s everyone’s interpretation of the ending? It looks like Loki has found himself in a TVA where Kang was upfront about his running things and hence there’s a statue of him. But Mobius is discussing the branches like they’ve just happened and he’s been instructed to leave them be. So what’s happened in this timeline? What does this TVA work toward? And why the change of plan?

[Corvinus85]

5 hours ago, The Anti-Targ said:

I swear I heard half a bar of Star Wars music in the opening credits for Ep 6. Or was I hearing a few notes from somewhere in the MCU's past and mistaking it for Star Wars. Wouldn't it be crazy if Disney decided screw everyone, we own them and we'll do what we want. Star Wars is now a universe in the MCU multiverse. Theoretically every property Disney owns and every property Disney doesn't own IS a universe in the MCU multiverse, because ultimately a multiverse contains every possible universe.

DC is a universe in the MCU multiverse, but Marvel is also a universe within the DC multiverse. Every universe is a member of every multiverse.

I heard a bit of music highly similar to the Defenders main theme, or possibly Daredevil. So bringing in Netflix Marvel.

Edit: definitely the Defenders. 

[DMC]

1 hour ago, DaveSumm said:

What’s everyone’s interpretation of the ending?

A significant part of me reacted similar to He Who Remains' disposition - I'm tired and I just don't care anymore.  That the friendship between Mobius and Loki is now negated (or I suppose one-sided) is particularly annoying.

[felice]

4 hours ago, RumHam said:

The weirdest part for me is that apparently all the TVA's failures, like Sylvie and Loki escaping and her setting off the time bombs were supposed to happen. All to get Sylvie and Loki in front of He Who Remains. 

It did look like they allowed Sylvie to escape as a kid, which makes sense now.

[john]

2 hours ago, DaveSumm said:

What’s everyone’s interpretation of the ending? It looks like Loki has found himself in a TVA where Kang was upfront about his running things and hence there’s a statue of him. But Mobius is discussing the branches like they’ve just happened and he’s been instructed to leave them be. So what’s happened in this timeline? What does this TVA work toward? And why the change of plan?

He either went back to the correct time (a couple of subjective hours after he left? Funny how that always works out) but the wrong branch, one that was previously pruned but now exists again. Or he went back to his own timeline previously known as the sacred timeline but it’s now different somehow due to all the branching having happening since the beginning of it. I suppose it’s just a different way of saying the same thing really.

The obvious speculation is that that Kang depicted in the statue is Kang the Conqueror, the new MCU villain. And if he is that Kang he’s probably happy to have all the timelines back so he can fight his counterparts.

[argonak]

2 hours ago, DMC said:

A significant part of me reacted similar to He Who Remains' disposition - I'm tired and I just don't care anymore.  That the friendship between Mobius and Loki is now negated (or I suppose one-sided) is particularly annoying.

I think in fiction if the audience can't figure out the in-universe "rules" eventually they just stop caring because it doesn't seem like anything matters.  That's how it feels to me too.  Hopefully Season 2 can explain what's going on.  

[argonak]

3 hours ago, Denvek said:

It's 1000 years in the future - why not both?

Genetically speaking, after 1000 years it probably hardly matters who you're "related" to.

[Rhom]

9 minutes ago, argonak said:

Genetically speaking, after 1000 years it probably hardly matters who you're "related" to.

Except in fiction... where that sort of thing always matters.