Daenerys Should Sack Volantis, or require its Triarchs to do her Homage and bend the knee.

[BlackLightning]

7 minutes ago, Daenerysthegreat said:

Now now I am new to the fandom but I think rhaegar being Jon’s father is high level tinfoil(that’s what you call ridiculous theories right)

 

It's been basically confirmed already.

But yeah: back on topic.

I don't think Volantis will be completely destroyed and sacked...at least not by Dany. I do think we'll spend one or two chapters there with Dany learning more about the Old Blood and what happened after the Doom.

[Hrulj]

On 9/20/2021 at 1:58 PM, SeanF said:

The Old Blood have caused suffering to millions, and are causing Volantis to rot away.

Trough slavery? Who cares. The people live about as well as lowborn in Westeros. They're not dying in pointless wars and idiocies of inbred lunatics with 2% Valyrian blood that think themselves Gods over men. 

On 9/21/2021 at 9:30 AM, BlackLightning said:

We don't know that.

There were more dragons left behind in the Freehold. Obviously something happened and all the dragons left in Essos died off before all the ones in Westeros died off.

Agreed.

That's why I think Bran becoming the King of Westeros in the end makes sense. If Dany and Jon combine their claims (or if Jon's claim completely supersedes Dany's), then Bran would be the logical heir if something happened to both Dany and Jon.

We do know that. Less wars = Good. Volantis is mighty, wealthy and for most part peaceful. They're not pulling a Targaryen conquest every few years, the nobility aren't murdering each other or declaring themselves kings. 

 

On 9/22/2021 at 9:33 AM, BlackLightning said:

Rhaegar Targaryen

Jon is not a bastard.

Everyone does not believe Bran is dead.

Wyman Manderly, Wex Pyke, Davos Seaworth, Rickon Stark, Theon Greyjoy, the Boltons, Barbrey Dustin, Samwell Tarly, Gilly, etc. all know that Bran was not murdered at Winterfell.

People know what Bran looks like anyways. If he turns up with his direwolf and Meera Reed (which he likely will), people are not going to screaming "Pretender! Usurper!" at him.

Jon is a bastard. Polygamy is not allowed. There was no public divorce from Elia. There was no public marriage. A "secret wedding" to a naive idiotic 14 yearold who you wanna lay with has no basis of legitimacy. If it even happened at all, since we're basing it off of the show. 

On 9/22/2021 at 9:52 AM, BlackLightning said:

It's been basically confirmed already.

But yeah: back on topic.

I don't think Volantis will be completely destroyed and sacked...at least not by Dany. I do think we'll spend one or two chapters there with Dany learning more about the Old Blood and what happened after the Doom.

Hardly. Show also confirmed Aegon doesn't exist, the Sand Snakes murder Doran, Bron becomes the most important lord of Westeros, Jorah gets greyscale, not Jon Con, some Miranda is lover of Ramsay, Roose gets killed by Ramsay and his wife and baby fed to the dogs, Jon refuses legitimizations, engaging in wars south etc forever then suddenly goes all in on that entire thing once he gets killed just so he can needlesly kneel to Daenarys, Drogon burns the Iron throne as root of all evil rather than Jon who murdered his mom, the Dothraki are massacred by White Walkers but also regenerate like "The Thing" and respawn with full HP afterwards while Unsullied decide to commit a mass suicide by going to Nath to die of butterfly disease. Shows idiotic, R+L=J is a theory that if true would demean and ruin the books unless it was a product of rape. 

[SeanF]

3 hours ago, Hrulj said:

Trough slavery? Who cares. The people live about as well as lowborn in Westeros. They're not dying in pointless wars and idiocies of inbred lunatics with 2% Valyrian blood that think themselves Gods over men. 

We do know that. Less wars = Good. Volantis is mighty, wealthy and for most part peaceful. They're not pulling a Targaryen conquest every few years, the nobility aren't murdering each other or declaring themselves kings. 

 

Jon is a bastard. Polygamy is not allowed. There was no public divorce from Elia. There was no public marriage. A "secret wedding" to a naive idiotic 14 yearold who you wanna lay with has no basis of legitimacy. If it even happened at all, since we're basing it off of the show. 

Hardly. Show also confirmed Aegon doesn't exist, the Sand Snakes murder Doran, Bron becomes the most important lord of Westeros, Jorah gets greyscale, not Jon Con, some Miranda is lover of Ramsay, Roose gets killed by Ramsay and his wife and baby fed to the dogs, Jon refuses legitimizations, engaging in wars south etc forever then suddenly goes all in on that entire thing once he gets killed just so he can needlesly kneel to Daenarys, Drogon burns the Iron throne as root of all evil rather than Jon who murdered his mom, the Dothraki are massacred by White Walkers but also regenerate like "The Thing" and respawn with full HP afterwards while Unsullied decide to commit a mass suicide by going to Nath to die of butterfly disease. Shows idiotic, R+L=J is a theory that if true would demean and ruin the books unless it was a product of rape. 

The show confirms nothing.

Who cares about slavery?  Well the slaves do, clearly.  Slavery is a form of constant warfare against five sixths of the population.  Wars and piracy in Essos are fuelled by the constant demand for fresh slaves.

[Daenerysthegreat]

1 hour ago, SeanF said:

The show confirms nothing.

Who cares about slavery?  Well the slaves do, clearly.  Slavery is a form of constant warfare against five sixths of the population.  Wars and piracy in Essos are fuelled by the constant demand for fresh slaves.

Absolutely correct, dany is the only beacon of hope for the slaves in volantis

4 hours ago, Hrulj said:

 

Jon is a bastard. Polygamy is not allowed. There was no public divorce from Elia. There was no public marriage. A "secret wedding" to a naive idiotic 14 yearold who you wanna lay with has no basis of legitimacy. If it even happened at all, since we're basing it off of the show. 

Hardly. Show also confirmed Aegon doesn't exist, the Sand Snakes murder Doran, Bron becomes the most important lord of Westeros, Jorah gets greyscale, not Jon Con, some Miranda is lover of Ramsay, Roose gets killed by Ramsay and his wife and baby fed to the dogs, Jon refuses legitimizations, engaging in wars south etc forever then suddenly goes all in on that entire thing once he gets killed just so he can needlesly kneel to Daenarys, Drogon burns the Iron throne as root of all evil rather than Jon who murdered his mom, the Dothraki are massacred by White Walkers but also regenerate like "The Thing" and respawn with full HP afterwards while Unsullied decide to commit a mass suicide by going to Nath to die of butterfly disease. Shows idiotic, R+L=J is a theory that if true would demean and ruin the books unless it was a product of rape. 

I'm liking you more and more

[BlackLightning]

On 9/25/2021 at 7:42 PM, Hrulj said:

Hardly. Show also confirmed Aegon doesn't exist, the Sand Snakes murder Doran, Bron becomes the most important lord of Westeros, Jorah gets greyscale, not Jon Con, some Miranda is lover of Ramsay, Roose gets killed by Ramsay and his wife and baby fed to the dogs, Jon refuses legitimizations, engaging in wars south etc forever then suddenly goes all in on that entire thing once he gets killed just so he can needlesly kneel to Daenarys, Drogon burns the Iron throne as root of all evil rather than Jon who murdered his mom, the Dothraki are massacred by White Walkers but also regenerate like "The Thing" and respawn with full HP afterwards while Unsullied decide to commit a mass suicide by going to Nath to die of butterfly disease. Shows idiotic, R+L=J is a theory that if true would demean and ruin the books unless it was a product of rape. 

Good points.

On 9/25/2021 at 7:42 PM, Hrulj said:

Hardly. Show also confirmed Aegon doesn't exist, the Sand Snakes murder Doran, Bron becomes the most important lord of Westeros, Jorah gets greyscale, not Jon Con, some Miranda is lover of Ramsay, Roose gets killed by Ramsay and his wife and baby fed to the dogs, Jon refuses legitimizations, engaging in wars south etc forever then suddenly goes all in on that entire thing once he gets killed just so he can needlesly kneel to Daenarys, Drogon burns the Iron throne as root of all evil rather than Jon who murdered his mom, the Dothraki are massacred by White Walkers but also regenerate like "The Thing" and respawn with full HP afterwards while Unsullied decide to commit a mass suicide by going to Nath to die of butterfly disease. Shows idiotic, R+L=J is a theory that if true would demean and ruin the books unless it was a product of rape. 

No, slaves in Essos live worse than the lowborn in Westeros. The lowborn in Westeros have rights and can appeal to their lords and the king. Slaves do not. They are merely property.

On 9/25/2021 at 7:42 PM, Hrulj said:

We do know that. Less wars = Good. Volantis is mighty, wealthy and for most part peaceful.

Less wars does not necessarily mean a good thing. Some wars need to be fought.

You can't have a truly peaceful society if it's based on the total subjugation, objectification and exploitation of other human beings

If Volantis was so peaceful, why is it on the verge of a massive slave revolt and collapse?

[Hrulj]

8 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

Good points.

 

No, slaves in Essos live worse than the lowborn in Westeros. The lowborn in Westeros have rights and can appeal to their lords and the king. Slaves do not. They are merely property.

Less wars does not necessarily mean a good thing. Some wars need to be fought.

You can't have a truly peaceful society if it's based on the total subjugation, objectification and exploitation of other human beings

If Volantis was so peaceful, why is it on the verge of a massive slave revolt and collapse?

 

What we see in the books is such contempt of lowborn, such massacres and terrors that were non-existent in any medieval conflict, yet is commonplace in Westeros to the point soldiers don't even question it, that it rivals the scale of loss during the 30 year war and general protestant wars in Europe. The loss of life, abuses and disregard is way worse than what could be expected.

 

Meanwhile, in Volantis slaves are beaten, killed and punished when they actually do a wrong, rather than "war" or "lord felt like it". Slaves are assigned jobs based on skills or education. A philosopher will not be showelling dung of the streets of old Volantis, they will live a life of comfort teaching noble children. Skilled craftsmen do the same. The slavery is of Greeko-Roman style rather than American chattel slavery. Slavery exists on the premise that men would rather live than die. It existed on said premise in our world and existed in ASOIAF world as well. And those ravaged in riverlands, raped to death by mountain or burned alive by Vargo would rather spend a lifetime digging ditches than watch their kids, wife and family die then follow them into it. 

 

From what I remember, and do take it with a grain of salt, it was 10+ years since I last read the books - Slaves in volantis are egged on by Rhllorites against the minority elite as well as encouraged into dissent by recent success of anti slavery coalition led by Daenarys. 

 

[SeanF]

1 hour ago, Hrulj said:

 

What we see in the books is such contempt of lowborn, such massacres and terrors that were non-existent in any medieval conflict, yet is commonplace in Westeros to the point soldiers don't even question it, that it rivals the scale of loss during the 30 year war and general protestant wars in Europe. The loss of life, abuses and disregard is way worse than what could be expected.

 

Meanwhile, in Volantis slaves are beaten, killed and punished when they actually do a wrong, rather than "war" or "lord felt like it". Slaves are assigned jobs based on skills or education. A philosopher will not be showelling dung of the streets of old Volantis, they will live a life of comfort teaching noble children. Skilled craftsmen do the same. The slavery is of Greeko-Roman style rather than American chattel slavery. Slavery exists on the premise that men would rather live than die. It existed on said premise in our world and existed in ASOIAF world as well. And those ravaged in riverlands, raped to death by mountain or burned alive by Vargo would rather spend a lifetime digging ditches than watch their kids, wife and family die then follow them into it. 

 

From what I remember, and do take it with a grain of salt, it was 10+ years since I last read the books - Slaves in volantis are egged on by Rhllorites against the minority elite as well as encouraged into dissent by recent success of anti slavery coalition led by Daenarys. 

 

A “wrong” means offending one’s master.  Volantene slaves are chattels.  That means they can be killed, brutalised, raped, tortured at the will of the master.

You’re presenting a highly romanticised view of chattel slavery, a system which can only remain in being through extreme violence, at both the institutional and casual level.  The Widow on the Waterfront shows that chattel slaves don’t want to be chattel slaves.

Slavery in the ancient world was every bit as grim as in the US South.

And slavery fuels war and piracy.  The Dothraki and corsairs are given rich rewards to seize fresh slaves.

[Hrulj]

12 hours ago, SeanF said:

A “wrong” means offending one’s master.  Volantene slaves are chattels.  That means they can be killed, brutalised, raped, tortured at the will of the master.

You’re presenting a highly romanticised view of chattel slavery, a system which can only remain in being through extreme violence, at both the institutional and casual level.  The Widow on the Waterfront shows that chattel slaves don’t want to be chattel slaves.

Slavery in the ancient world was every bit as grim as in the US South.

And slavery fuels war and piracy.  The Dothraki and corsairs are given rich rewards to seize fresh slaves.

Yes. Do remind me how a lowborn could tell Tywin or Mountain to suckle on their nuts or refuse to do their bidding and end up fine. 
 

No one wants to be slave. But few want to die more than they don’t want to be slaves. It’s how the system works. No one wants to be lowborn either. They could or they couldn’t. Martin didn’t go too far into describing it. We however don’t see such casual purposeless brutalizations in the book. So it is highly likely that is not the case. If mountain or Roose or Tywin or Eddard or Robert wanted to rape a lowborn, kill them for any reason, or torture them they could. And few would care. 
 

Without slavery you have genocide. If no one bought slaves the Dothraki wouldn’t turn to farming and tending rose gardens. They’d simply kill the defeated. 
 

 

[SeanF]

1 hour ago, Hrulj said:

Yes. Do remind me how a lowborn could tell Tywin or Mountain to suckle on their nuts or refuse to do their bidding and end up fine. 
 

No one wants to be slave. But few want to die more than they don’t want to be slaves. It’s how the system works. No one wants to be lowborn either. They could or they couldn’t. Martin didn’t go too far into describing it. We however don’t see such casual purposeless brutalizations in the book. So it is highly likely that is not the case. If mountain or Roose or Tywin or Eddard or Robert wanted to rape a lowborn, kill them for any reason, or torture them they could. And few would care. 
 

Without slavery you have genocide. If no one bought slaves the Dothraki wouldn’t turn to farming and tending rose gardens. They’d simply kill the defeated. 
 

 

Most people in Westeros don't encounter Ser Gregor Clegane.  Most people in Essos do have a master.

In the East, we have the Unsullied, who are castrated.  Two thirds of them die, and on graduation, they have to kill an infant.  We have dwarves and children thrown to wild animals for public entertainment.  We have men being castrated to form choirs.  We have bed slaves like Illyrio's maids or the Sunset girl who can be raped at will.  The Yellow Whale, incontinent and diseased, uses Sweets for sex, and he's one of the nicer slave masters. Men are forced to fight to death.  Captured slaves are branded and tattooed to mark out their ownership.   Slaves are publicly flayed, dismembered, stoned to death by slingers.  People like Ramsay Bolton are considered deviant in Westeros;  in the slave states, their actions have been institutionalised. In Gorgossos, before it was destroyed, slaves were mated to various kinds of animal.  In Valyria, they were worked to death in heated mines, or sacrificed. 

Being poor, but free, beats being a slave. Slavery is a well of misery.

If there's no economic incentive to seize slaves, there will be fewer wars and less piracy.  The Dothraki would however, still seek plunder and protection money.  In general, war is no less common in the East than in the West. Volantis is preparing a massive invasion of Slavers Bay. Tyrosh, Lys, and Myr are constantly fighting each other.  A vast slaver coalition is trying to crush free Meereen.

[BlackLightning]

Here we go again with the slave apologetics.

I have a huge issue that slavery exists on the premise that humans would rather live than die. You do know that chattel slaves -- both in the story and outside of it -- are prevented from taking their own lives as much as they are prevented from running away or trying to set themselves free, right?

The serfs of Westeros are not that much better off than the slaves in Essos I will give you that. But at least the serfs in Westeros can seek justice and can earn their own keep. They can move, make friends, marry and have children as they wish. They can take up whatever crafts and hobbies they like. Lowborn men in Westeros have quite a bit of social mobility. And lowborn women in Westeros are, in many ways, more free than highborn women in Westeros.

Very different from the slaves.

16 hours ago, Hrulj said:

What we see in the books is such contempt of lowborn, such massacres and terrors that were non-existent in any medieval conflict, yet is commonplace in Westeros to the point soldiers don't even question it, that it rivals the scale of loss during the 30 year war and general protestant wars in Europe. The loss of life, abuses and disregard is way worse than what could be expected.

 

Meanwhile, in Volantis slaves are beaten, killed and punished when they actually do a wrong, rather than "war" or "lord felt like it". Slaves are assigned jobs based on skills or education. A philosopher will not be showelling dung of the streets of old Volantis, they will live a life of comfort teaching noble children. Skilled craftsmen do the same. The slavery is of Greeko-Roman style rather than American chattel slavery. Slavery exists on the premise that men would rather live than die. It existed on said premise in our world and existed in ASOIAF world as well. And those ravaged in riverlands, raped to death by mountain or burned alive by Vargo would rather spend a lifetime digging ditches than watch their kids, wife and family die then follow them into it. 

 

From what I remember, and do take it with a grain of salt, it was 10+ years since I last read the books - Slaves in volantis are egged on by Rhllorites against the minority elite as well as encouraged into dissent by recent success of anti slavery coalition led by Daenarys. 

The larger point of the War of the Five Kings (a point illustrated beautifully in Feast and Storm) is that it was unusually and massively destructive and brutal. Even by Westerosi standards. The villains in the War went to alarmingly unconscionable lengths to make sure they won: case in point, the Red Wedding is such a huge deal because it is unthinkable. The horrific treachery of Roose Bolton, Ramsay Snow and Rickard Karstark was really ridiculous and caused a large amount of damage. The Battle of the Blackwater was extreme.

Tywin's attack on the Riverlands (and the nature of the attack) while King Robert was still alive was absolutely uncalled for. People love to justify that by blaming it on Catelyn but no. Tywin was completely out of line. Especially when you consider that he brought the Brave Companions into Westeros and set them loose.

Basically, the War of the Five Kings boils down to a large, sequential event of war crimes and crimes against humanity.

 

No, the slavery in Essos is of the American variety. Not the Greco-Roman variety.

[SeanF]

7 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

Here we go again with the slave apologetics.

I have a huge issue that slavery exists on the premise that humans would rather live than die. You do know that chattel slaves -- both in the story and outside of it -- are prevented from taking their own lives as much as they are prevented from running away or trying to set themselves free, right?

The serfs of Westeros are not that much better off than the slaves in Essos I will give you that. But at least the serfs in Westeros can seek justice and can earn their own keep. They can move, make friends, marry and have children as they wish. They can take up whatever crafts and hobbies they like. Lowborn men in Westeros have quite a bit of social mobility. And lowborn women in Westeros are, in many ways, more free than highborn women in Westeros.

Very different from the slaves.

The larger point of the War of the Five Kings (a point illustrated beautifully in Feast and Storm) is that it was unusually and massively destructive and brutal. Even by Westerosi standards. The villains in the War went to alarmingly unconscionable lengths to make sure they won: case in point, the Red Wedding is such a huge deal because it is unthinkable. The horrific treachery of Roose Bolton, Ramsay Snow and Rickard Karstark was really ridiculous and caused a large amount of damage. The Battle of the Blackwater was extreme.

Tywin's attack on the Riverlands (and the nature of the attack) while King Robert was still alive was absolutely uncalled for. People love to justify that by blaming it on Catelyn but no. Tywin was completely out of line. Especially when you consider that he brought the Brave Companions into Westeros and set them loose.

Basically, the War of the Five Kings boils down to a large, sequential event of war crimes and crimes against humanity.

 

No, the slavery in Essos is of the American variety. Not the Greco-Roman variety.

Martin has simply taken the worst elements of slavery from a variety of societies, and brought them together in Slavers Bay.  Slavers Bay is his version of Mordor.

The huge imbalance in numbers between free and slave, and the extreme cruelty used to keep them in line, resembles St. Domingue and other sugar colonies.

The "amusements" resemble the most vile features of the Roman arena.

The routine rape of slaves resembles the US South.

The trade in slaves resembles that of the Arabs and North Africans.

[Hrulj]

3 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

Here we go again with the slave apologetics.

I have a huge issue that slavery exists on the premise that humans would rather live than die. You do know that chattel slaves -- both in the story and outside of it -- are prevented from taking their own lives as much as they are prevented from running away or trying to set themselves free, right?

The serfs of Westeros are not that much better off than the slaves in Essos I will give you that. But at least the serfs in Westeros can seek justice and can earn their own keep. They can move, make friends, marry and have children as they wish. They can take up whatever crafts and hobbies they like. Lowborn men in Westeros have quite a bit of social mobility. And lowborn women in Westeros are, in many ways, more free than highborn women in Westeros.

Very different from the slaves.

The larger point of the War of the Five Kings (a point illustrated beautifully in Feast and Storm) is that it was unusually and massively destructive and brutal. Even by Westerosi standards. The villains in the War went to alarmingly unconscionable lengths to make sure they won: case in point, the Red Wedding is such a huge deal because it is unthinkable. The horrific treachery of Roose Bolton, Ramsay Snow and Rickard Karstark was really ridiculous and caused a large amount of damage. The Battle of the Blackwater was extreme.

Tywin's attack on the Riverlands (and the nature of the attack) while King Robert was still alive was absolutely uncalled for. People love to justify that by blaming it on Catelyn but no. Tywin was completely out of line. Especially when you consider that he brought the Brave Companions into Westeros and set them loose.

Basically, the War of the Five Kings boils down to a large, sequential event of war crimes and crimes against humanity.

 

No, the slavery in Essos is of the American variety. Not the Greco-Roman variety.

Historical context is not apologetics. Don't blame me that slavery makes sense in ancient times. 

Unless the slave is kept 24/7 chained inside an empty room in a way that prevents him from banging his head against the wall or choking himself out in his own shackles then there is no way to prevent suicide. 

How do you think people become slaves? A servant beam strikes them in the chest and some force takes over their mind while the free man is trapped unable to do anything as his body serves? People most literally would do anything rather than die. They will cut off their own limbs to escape death, they will be raped rather than die, they will walk to execution grounds just for few extra minutes of life than fight early and risk an earlier or more painful death. Your logic of people don't care about dying or pain and are slaves trough magic makes little sense. 

 

They can't seek justice against those above them. A peasant seeking justice against Tywin for having his daughter raped by entire garrison of Casterly rock would find a quickly burning hovel with death family members on his way home from seeking said justice. Slaves in history could seek justice and restitution against their peers. Or do you think slaves were allowed to rob, beat, murder or rape other slaves at will? Not to mention actual historical regulation on treatment of slaves.

Serfs can't move. Serfs are bound to the land and serve the lord. Historically Serfs that tried to move would be hunted down and murdered as example to the village. They can indeed have children, friends or hobbies. And lord can come rape their daughters, take their sons as cannon fodder or seize their produce hobby or not at will. 

The lowborn women are free to prostitute themselves, and that is the limit, acording to GRRM's portrayal of lowborn women in westeros. Or they can prostitute themselves to a single man by becoming his lover. Fabulous social mobility. 

Except that WOTFK isn't a singular occurence of brutality. Blackfyre wars as well as any other Targaryen wars are as brutal. 

I don't care about Esos. We are talking exclusively about Volantis. I don't care that Slavers bay castrates boys into warrior eunuchs, or that Ironborn drown their slaves to their gods etc. 

 

[Frey family reunion]

5 hours ago, SeanF said:

In the East, we have the Unsullied, who are castrated.  Two thirds of them die, and on graduation, they have to kill an infant. 

I thought it was a puppy.

[SeanF]

1 minute ago, Frey family reunion said:

I thought it was a puppy.

Both.

[SeanF]

8 minutes ago, Hrulj said:

Historical context is not apologetics. Don't blame me that slavery makes sense in ancient times. 

Unless the slave is kept 24/7 chained inside an empty room in a way that prevents him from banging his head against the wall or choking himself out in his own shackles then there is no way to prevent suicide. 

How do you think people become slaves? A servant beam strikes them in the chest and some force takes over their mind while the free man is trapped unable to do anything as his body serves? People most literally would do anything rather than die. They will cut off their own limbs to escape death, they will be raped rather than die, they will walk to execution grounds just for few extra minutes of life than fight early and risk an earlier or more painful death. Your logic of people don't care about dying or pain and are slaves trough magic makes little sense. 

 

They can't seek justice against those above them. A peasant seeking justice against Tywin for having his daughter raped by entire garrison of Casterly rock would find a quickly burning hovel with death family members on his way home from seeking said justice. Slaves in history could seek justice and restitution against their peers. Or do you think slaves were allowed to rob, beat, murder or rape other slaves at will? Not to mention actual historical regulation on treatment of slaves.

Serfs can't move. Serfs are bound to the land and serve the lord. Historically Serfs that tried to move would be hunted down and murdered as example to the village. They can indeed have children, friends or hobbies. And lord can come rape their daughters, take their sons as cannon fodder or seize their produce hobby or not at will. 

The lowborn women are free to prostitute themselves, and that is the limit, acording to GRRM's portrayal of lowborn women in westeros. Or they can prostitute themselves to a single man by becoming his lover. Fabulous social mobility. 

Except that WOTFK isn't a singular occurence of brutality. Blackfyre wars as well as any other Targaryen wars are as brutal. 

I don't care about Esos. We are talking exclusively about Volantis. I don't care that Slavers bay castrates boys into warrior eunuchs, or that Ironborn drown their slaves to their gods etc. 

 

You are romanticising chattel slavery as some kind of benign institution, and that never looks good.

[Frey family reunion]

3 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Both.

I think if they can't bring themselves to kill the puppy, they are in turn killed and fed to the dogs.  

As for the general debate, the only thing I have to add, is that Barristan seemed pretty disgusted with the treatment of slaves in Slaver's Bay.  And this is a guy who was Aerys' bodyguard.  

[Hrulj]

On 9/25/2021 at 10:30 PM, SeanF said:

 

3 hours ago, SeanF said:

You are romanticising chattel slavery as some kind of benign institution, and that never looks good.

It’s not benign. It’s not fundamentally evil. It is context and treatment dependent. 

[Rondo]

Volantis and its slave-owning class deserve to get annihilated for all of their terrible deeds.  The Widow of the docks and her people will start a rebellion and free all of the slaves.  It doesn't have to be this way.  The masters could choose to end slavery and give up their slaves.  But if they should choose to be stubborn and refuse to release the slaves, they will lose this battle and die.  And that would be fitting.  They deserve to burn for all of the crimes they have been committing since they took their first shat.  

As far as Daenerys sacking the city?  It's not going to happen.  She has always been and will continue to be the heroine.  She will only get involved if the slaves are helpless against the slavers.  Which is not the case.  The slaves have the strength in number.  Benerro and his church will be there to support the slaves in their fight for freedom.  It will end with the slaves victorious over the slavers.  

[Walda]

23 hours ago, Hrulj said:

Yes. Do remind me how a lowborn could tell Tywin or Mountain to suckle on their nuts or refuse to do their bidding and end up fine. 

Quote

“People of Sherrer, I cannot give you back your homes or your crops, nor can I restore your dead to life. But perhaps I can give you some small measure of justice, in the name of our king, Robert.”

(AGoT, Ch 43 Eddard XI)

While I have numerous issues with this particular dispensation of justice, from first causes to final consequences, there is still the fact that the Smallfolk of Sherrer have the legal rights to apply to Gregor Clegane's liege-lord Tywin for redress when he damages their property and persons, and to their own Lords (Piper, Vance, and Darry) for immediate protection against such attacks, and can appeal to the King on the Iron Throne himself when the King's peace is breached in their lands.

These processes have many obvious failings, but they do exist.

The people of Sherrer have property, like the Inn by the Stone Bridge. They have homes. Their children may live with their parents, as Layna did, or with their master, as the unfortunate smith's apprentice did, but no lord had the right to dispose of their children and their milch cows. No Lord has the right to sell them or even to give them to a friend, to chose their profession for them, to buy someone to replace them in their forge, inn, or farm.

When Gregor murders, rapes, razes, pillages, he is acting illegally. Pycelle might question the identity of the purpetrator, we might be skeptical of some of the claims made, but nobody claims that a person who did these things that were claimed had any legal right to - they all agree that these are criminal acts

Also, nobody notes that the true plaintiff of this case is Lord Vance as Sherrer and its smallfolk belonged to him, and Vance is therefore the only one entitled to apply to the King/ Lord Tully/ Lord Tywin for redress. There is no claim that the injury done to the townsfolk of Sherrer is an injury done to the property of Lord Vance.

Paying rent/taxes, serving in the army reserves, and giving fealty to a Lord is significantly less oppressive than being a chattel slave, even in a society as unequal and unjust as Westeros.

[BlackLightning]

20 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

I thought it was a puppy.

Graduation is killing an newborn infant in front of its mother.

Killing the puppy they raised is like a midterm.

14 hours ago, Rondo said:

Volantis and its slave-owning class deserve to get annihilated for all of their terrible deeds.  The Widow of the docks and her people will start a rebellion and free all of the slaves.  It doesn't have to be this way.  The masters could choose to end slavery and give up their slaves.  But if they should choose to be stubborn and refuse to release the slaves, they will lose this battle and die.  And that would be fitting.  They deserve to burn for all of the crimes they have been committing since they took their first shat.  

As far as Daenerys sacking the city?  It's not going to happen.  She has always been and will continue to be the heroine.  She will only get involved if the slaves are helpless against the slavers.  Which is not the case.  The slaves have the strength in number.  Benerro and his church will be there to support the slaves in their fight for freedom.  It will end with the slaves victorious over the slavers.  

Well...

Daenerys did sack Astapor. And I'm pretty sure Robb Stark sacked a couple mines, villages, towns and holdfasts in the Westerlands

20 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

As for the general debate, the only thing I have to add, is that Barristan seemed pretty disgusted with the treatment of slaves in Slaver's Bay.  And this is a guy who was Aerys' bodyguard.  

Good call. Barristaon is also an old man who has also fought in many battles and seen much death and disgusting things in his life.

It is telling.

20 hours ago, Hrulj said:

The lowborn women are free to prostitute themselves, and that is the limit, acording to GRRM's portrayal of lowborn women in westeros. Or they can prostitute themselves to a single man by becoming his lover. Fabulous social mobility. 

 

Not true. There are seamstresses, innkeepers, septas, milkmaids, fisherwomen, farmers, husbandwomen, etc.