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House Selmy

Daenerys Should Sack Volantis, or require its Triarchs to do her Homage and bend the knee.

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7 hours ago, SeanF said:

The problem with that viewpoint is that it treats the violence of those who enforce the unjust and corrupt status quo as legitimate, whereas the  violence of opposing it is deemed illegitimate. 

People will suffer in war.  But, the answer does not lie in the majority simply putting up with whatever a small minority of the population wish to do to them.

WRT Volantis, yes, I'm quite sure the people will revolt against the Old Blood, and that this revolt will not be civilised.

@John SuburbsI agree that the armada will revolt. 

I didn't say there was a simple answer. It's a bad situation regardless of what happens and nothing will fix is quickly. Mereen is a perfect example of everything coming undone when you yank at the threads of the tapestry of society. The economy tanked since all trade stopped, it will be decades recovering since all the trees were cut down, the former slaves are living in fear they'll be murdered by the Harpies if the pale mare doesn't get them first or that they starve to death. Assuming the enemy army to retake the city doesn't kill or enslave them. 

A radical change in the balance is always going to have an equally radical change push right back. The people who suffer from those changes are always those without the means to protect themselves.

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I get the feeling the slaves will be the ones to over turn the government, possibly led by the red priests.

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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, Lord Lannister said:

I didn't say there was a simple answer. It's a bad situation regardless of what happens and nothing will fix is quickly. Mereen is a perfect example of everything coming undone when you yank at the threads of the tapestry of society. The economy tanked since all trade stopped, it will be decades recovering since all the trees were cut down, the former slaves are living in fear they'll be murdered by the Harpies if the pale mare doesn't get them first or that they starve to death. Assuming the enemy army to retake the city doesn't kill or enslave them. 

A radical change in the balance is always going to have an equally radical change push right back. The people who suffer from those changes are always those without the means to protect themselves.

Powerful people who stand to lose out will always push back very brutally.  That's a given.  Dany's big mistake was not to appreciate how savagely the slavers would fight back.  It's certainly not my impression, though, that the freedmen want their former masters back in charge.

Edited by SeanF

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12 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Thing is, they don't. When Cerseis KL stalled her debts, the IB of Braavos eyed all of Cerseis every growing list of enemies and decided to bank... Stannis. Stannis! The one in the snow. 

The safest or most probable combatant in Braavos' eyes is not the silver dragon in Mereen but the loser of BW who lives at the wall... I like the guy, but Stannis is neither the safe bet nor reliable. Its throwing away money, which is somehow more preferable then payrolling Aerys' daughter with her lengthy track record.  Somethings up. 

Well, I certainly don't know how Stannis was the most logical option to bet on, but just as you pointed out, he is not the horse with the bullet in his head, but that specific bullet for him has been shot already. So, whatever.

On the other hand Daenerys is not a player yet in the play for Westeros. He's still east to Valyria. Qarth is still closer to him than Volantis. If one can repay Braavos, it's her. And if Braavos wants to win, he has to bet on players still in the game. 

12 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Pentos. Dorne, under the banner of the Windblown, will soon be declaring war on the free city and praying to all 7 gods individually that Dany joins them. After all her Hand said she would, even though he thinks she's dead and he kinda just made up his position as Hand.

Somethings gonna happen in Pentos though, and like all free city wars its never just one free city. I'd be shocked if Volantis, even after their sure defeat at Merreen, don't join in the war on one side or the other. Hopefully Danys side and then hopefully with lots of concessions and we get to see Dark Dany

More interesting that Pentos is currently a puppet of Braavos. Makes me thinking. 

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7 hours ago, sifth said:

I get the feeling the slaves will be the ones to over turn the government, possibly led by the red priests.

Most likely. Queen Daenerys is the inspiration but the slaves will earn their freedom through revolt against their captors. The number of slaves exceed the owners. Freedom is in their hands.  Daenerys is the leading protagonist of “A Song of Ice and Fire”. She will encourage the slaves to fight for freedom.  
 

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On 8/24/2021 at 4:27 PM, SeanF said:

The Braavosi have no history of bad blood with the Targaryens.  I imagine they'll be wary but sympathetic towards her, given their own record of fighting slavery.

Braavosi have history of bad blood with Valyrians and dragons  - of which House Targaryen is leftover, it is explicitly stated in material.

Quote

"King Jaehaerys had great admiration for the city of Braavos, Barth told the Sealord; for that reason, he had not come himself, understanding as he did the Free City’s bitter history with Valyria and its dragonlords."

Jaehaerys and Alysanne—Their Triumphs and Tragedies - Fire&Blood

 

They might be sympathetic toward Daenerys, yet human lives are short and dragons long. Who knows what next Targaryen rulers would do with them.

Don't forget that Elissa Farman sold three dragon eggs to Braavosi, who might be very same eggs that Daenery's hatched - Jaehaerys I  threatened to burn the city for them and Braavos with assassins yet they made Iron Bank reduce debts of the throne. For all the time they had them Braavosi might have figured they are useless to them and they respond only to the blood of dragonlords.

Braavos rise started with the fall of Valyria and their might lies in their navy - which dragons are huge threat.

Edited by Eltharion21

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Why stop after freeing the slaves of Volantis? She should free Lys, Myr and Tyrosh too. But will she? No

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On 7/10/2021 at 10:23 AM, House Selmy said:

Throughout most of DwD and towards its end we see how the Volantenes celebrate at the expected down fall of the “Silver queen in the East”. Volantis, who prides itself as being the first daughter of Valyria, is surprisingly egger to see the downfall of the last true daughter of Valyria due to her disrupter to delicate global market that’s tied to slavery. If any of the released chapters in Selmy, and Tyrians POV say anything about the Volanten fleet heading for slavers bay. Its that they will likely lose at the hand of Victorian Greyjoy and the rest of Dani’s allies.

I make the case that whenever Dani marches west, she will likely need to stop in Volantis. For the transgressions of this city and its continued instance on the evil institution known as slavery, Dani should sack Volantis. She should burn down the old city as Valeria once did to the Rhynor, service fire and steel the old blood that refuse to bend the knee, and finally take all her wealth and power to aid in her Westerosi campaign. If this proves to difficult of a task due to time, troops and other pre cautions, she should at least end slavery, gain the wealth of the old blood behind the Black walls and take Volantis ship to transport her Dothraki khalasar she means to take west.

Obviously taking Volantis won’t be an easy thing like that of the Astapor, Yunkai and Marine, even with full grown dragons. The Triarchs of Volantis rule the live of million from there city to the towns of Volon Therys, Sar Mell and others up river. They can pull together a strong host from these large populations and give battle on multiple fronts. There is also the high walls and wealth of the older city of Volantis. The old blood can hire more sells word companies, use the mighty fleets of Volantis to attack Dani before she lands her hosts. But all these could be Matched with her dragons alone. Dani can also formant a huge slave uprising before she even gets there as she did with Merine. Like the other free cities, the slave population of Volantis outnumbers the freeborn and nobility 5/1. This doesn’t even speak of the Red priestess of Valor who are already preaching to the thousands about Asor Ahi and the doom that could befall Volantis if they don’t aid Dani instead of fighting her. Besides these, there exists powerful but discontent players within Volantis itself that would welcome a new ruler like Dani, least of all the widow of the water front aka “Vogarros Whore”. All her influence and connections could have the gates of the city open when Dani’s armies are the door.

Even with the downsides and cost of such a thing, there is so much Dany could gain from such a conquest that this almost seems like a no brainer. For starters, what a better way to Flex your might before ever getting to Westeros. Such a feet would also be a stern warning to the other free cities of her wrath if they choose to oppose her or help her enemies. This could also convince them to free their slaves before she even arrives, catching the attention and further assistance of the mighty city of Bravos. The only other major power in the world that’s as dedicated to the eradication of slavery as Dani is. The wealth of the Iron banks and the Vast fleet of the Sealord could go along way in fighting both the Lannister’s and Tyrells. I do believe the Iron bank errored in aiding Stannis instead of Dani in their hopes of regaining the money Robert spent as Dany is much more likely to take the Iron throne then Stannis. So what do yall think? I think it’s something Dani should and will probably do as Martin has hinted at. Obviously its no easy thing, but our Dragon queen has never had it easy.

 

 

Targaryens are misgenated mutts acording to Old Bloods of Volantis. Daenarys is 2.3% Targaryen, thanks to marriages to non Valyrians. She is not "The last true daughter of Valyria". Beyond the Black Walls of Old Volantis live the actual Valyrian nobility who preserved their bloods purity to the Valyrian standard. They also hold to the old Valyrian faith and culture, which at it's basis holds slavery. 

 

 

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On 7/24/2021 at 6:52 PM, StarksInTheNorth said:

I disagree. In her last chapter of ADWD, Dany was choosing the more violent warpath as a way to achieve the justice she sees. I think she sweeps in and turns the Black Walls of Volantis into a new Harrenhal or Field of Fire with her dragon power. The masters are destroyed in a huge flight of death, but the worshippers of the Red God hail her as Azor Ahai and she leaves the city to the freedmen before marching on to Pentos.

The only reason for Daenerys to do something like that is if the evil slave masters were to refuse to release the slaves. And if she were to do that, it will be done in such a way as to avoid a lot of casualties for the slaves. She is the hero of the series and unlikely to destroy cities without very good, very justified reasons.  

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I think Tyrion has more of a chance to "fix" Volantis, since he actually has some grasp on the history of the place. But even then he was just dropped in there to get a quick history lesson.

There's just no way a person can change things for the better, while being historically ignorant. Just like Americans failed in Afghanistan because they failed to understand the history and culture, among other things (drone bombing children).She'll fail in Westeros too if she doesn't fly directly to the Citadel and start hitting the books. She didn't even know that there were other Targaryens who shared her name, or that she was reading about Baelor in that children's book Jorah gave her.

Edited by Rose of Red Lake

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On 9/3/2021 at 6:36 PM, Widowmaker 811 said:

[snip] Daenerys  [snip] is the hero of the series [snip]

?

Daenerys is the hero in her own storyline of course. Just like every character in the books is. The hero of the whole series though? I don't know if there even is such a character but if there is it is not Daenerys. Look objectively at what she does and is planning to do:

1. she is trying to recruit an army of rapist savages in order to start a giant war

2. she has 3 firebreathing monsters that can lay waste to entire cities (and likely will)

3. she wants to invade and conquer a whole continent

Replace  '3 firebreathing monsters' with '9 Nazgul' and you have Sauron.

Admittedly, GRRM has made his antagonist more nuanced, given her understandable motivations and even a will to do good, not to mention making her female and good looking.  Nevertheless - the core nature of the character remains the same (see 1-3 above). I like Dany and still hold out some hope that she'll end up doing some good with her invasion in the end. But don't hold your breath.

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5 hours ago, Amris said:

?

Daenerys is the hero in her own storyline of course. Just like every character in the books is. The hero of the whole series though? I don't know if there even is such a character but if there is it is not Daenerys. Look objectively at what she does and is planning to do:

1. she is trying to recruit an army of rapist savages in order to start a giant war

2. she has 3 firebreathing monsters that can lay waste to entire cities (and likely will)

3. she wants to invade and conquer a whole continent

Replace  '3 firebreathing monsters' with '9 Nazgul' and you have Sauron.

Admittedly, GRRM has made his antagonist more nuanced, given her understandable motivations and even a will to do good, not to mention making her female and good looking.  Nevertheless - the core nature of the character remains the same (see 1-3 above). I like Dany and still hold out some hope that she'll end up doing some good with her invasion in the end. But don't hold your breath.

I don't think she's the Sauron of this story. I believe the author, when he says there is no Dark Lord.

We don't judge Robb Stark, or fAegon, or Stannis, or Mace Tyrell, or Prince Doran, or Arianne Martell as Sauron figures, despite their willingness to wage war, for the sake of revenge and/or crowns, and with plenty of "rapist savages" serving in their ranks.

What's the difference between a Dothraki rider and a Westerosi knight? A coat of arms.

Edited by SeanF

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@SeanF! You have been listening to the Hound:)

I don’t put it past Martin to give us misguided and sympathetically portrayed dark characters, and some reluctant or grey heroes.

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1 minute ago, HoodedCrow said:

@SeanF! You have been listening to the Hound:)

I don’t put it past Martin to give us misguided and sympathetically portrayed dark characters, and some reluctant or grey heroes.

The Hound is right to hold a very jaundiced view of knighthood, isn't he?

The unfortunate thing is that Tywin and Kevan Lannister, and their captains, may be the most brutal of the lot in Westeros, but not by all that much. 

All the protagonists (Daenerys included ) are shades of grey.

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On 9/3/2021 at 12:36 PM, Widowmaker 811 said:

The only reason for Daenerys to do something like that is if the evil slave masters were to refuse to release the slaves. And if she were to do that, it will be done in such a way as to avoid a lot of casualties for the slaves. She is the hero of the series and unlikely to destroy cities without very good, very justified reasons.  

The slave masters have already refused to release their slaves. Volantis is the center of the slave trade in Essos. Benerro preaches that Volantis will burn if the triarchs fight Dany. By the end of ADWD, Volantis has launched its slave fleet to fight and kill Dany. The Black Walls of Volantis are not the entire city. It's the equivalent of destroying the pyramids of Meereen. They are a continued sign of the oppressive forces of the masters. One of the many lessons of Astapor is that so long as those symbols remain, the forces will return. In her last chapter, Daenerys chose Fire & Blood over other methods and if a few must die so the rest might live, she doesn't mind running the trolley down that track.

However, the fight against slavery was not initially part of the novels and it's not the final fight/climax — the Others are. GRRM has stated that the focus is about Westeros, he was essentially never interested in a freedman POV, and it has been highly implied by his interviews and statements that the slavery plotline was invented so Daenerys had something to do on the way to Westeros. It's going to have to end with a bang because GRRM doesn't want a Volantene knot. Thus, the WMDs of ASOIAF will have to go off in Essos, and that's most likely going to be if&when Volantis burns.

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The depth of the plot notwithstanding, ice and darkness are the enemies of the living. Cold and darkness are the destroyers of life. Daenerys, her dragons,and allies are the protagonists of the novels. They oppose the cold darkness and by that, oppose death.  Sacking Volantis is not needed.  Daenerys has the most disciplined troops in her Unsullied. Sacking is not their way. Takng the city by force may be necessary in order to stop slavery but it will be done with a high level of professionalism and precision. 
 

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On 9/6/2021 at 6:18 AM, Amris said:

?

Daenerys is the hero in her own storyline of course. Just like every character in the books is. The hero of the whole series though? I don't know if there even is such a character but if there is it is not Daenerys. Look objectively at what she does and is planning to do:

1. she is trying to recruit an army of rapist savages in order to start a giant war

2. she has 3 firebreathing monsters that can lay waste to entire cities (and likely will)

3. she wants to invade and conquer a whole continent

Replace  '3 firebreathing monsters' with '9 Nazgul' and you have Sauron.

Admittedly, GRRM has made his antagonist more nuanced, given her understandable motivations and even a will to do good, not to mention making her female and good looking.  Nevertheless - the core nature of the character remains the same (see 1-3 above). I like Dany and still hold out some hope that she'll end up doing some good with her invasion in the end. But don't hold your breath.

Look objectively yourself. She rescued an army of abused eunuch soldiers from their masters. She is fighting a moral battle against slavers.  She defeated the warlocks of Quarth. She is the primary hero of the stories.  There are others who will be heroic at times, like Barristan, Greyworm, Brienne, Samwell, Bowen, and Tyrion. But she is the primary. 

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10 hours ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

Look objectively yourself. She rescued an army of abused eunuch soldiers from their masters. She is fighting a moral battle against slavers.  She defeated the warlocks of Quarth. She is the primary hero of the stories.  There are others who will be heroic at times, like Barristan, Greyworm, Brienne, Samwell, Bowen, and Tyrion. But she is the primary. 

The primary characters are the Starks. GRRM has been pretty clear about that. The first scene ever envisioned for the books was Bran's POV finding the direwolves in the snow. In comparison to the direwolves, the dragons came later in the development of the series and were not part of the original plan. GRRM has explicitly said that "the Starks are the heroes" and left out the Targaryens, Daenerys or otherwise. "[T]he children were always at the heart fo this. The Stark children, in particular, were always very central." The Starks are "the center of the story, when it begins.  . . . the Starks are the center of the book and, to a lesser extent, the Lannisters.

It is undoubtable that Dany is an incredibly important character to ASOIAF. If she wasn't, then she would've been an added POV later on, like Theon or Arianne or Davos or Jon Connington, etc. But she has never been the primary hero of the stories and the jury is out on whether or not she will actually be a hero to the people of Westeros. 

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8 hours ago, StarksInTheNorth said:

The primary characters are the Starks. GRRM has been pretty clear about that. The first scene ever envisioned for the books was Bran's POV finding the direwolves in the snow. In comparison to the direwolves, the dragons came later in the development of the series and were not part of the original plan. GRRM has explicitly said that "the Starks are the heroes" and left out the Targaryens, Daenerys or otherwise. "[T]he children were always at the heart fo this. The Stark children, in particular, were always very central." The Starks are "the center of the story, when it begins.  . . . the Starks are the center of the book and, to a lesser extent, the Lannisters.

It is undoubtable that Dany is an incredibly important character to ASOIAF. If she wasn't, then she would've been an added POV later on, like Theon or Arianne or Davos or Jon Connington, etc. But she has never been the primary hero of the stories and the jury is out on whether or not she will actually be a hero to the people of Westeros. 

There are five or six main protagonists, and Dany is certainly one of them, like Tyrion.  She was in fact, the very first character whose story was published.  Dragons were not part of the original plan, but her pyrokinesis was.  But, I accept she’s not the *primary* hero, a character who likely does not exist in this tale, just one of them.

Edited by SeanF

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18 hours ago, StarksInTheNorth said:

The primary characters are the Starks. GRRM has been pretty clear about that. The first scene ever envisioned for the books was Bran's POV finding the direwolves in the snow. In comparison to the direwolves, the dragons came later in the development of the series and were not part of the original plan. GRRM has explicitly said that "the Starks are the heroes" and left out the Targaryens, Daenerys or otherwise. "[T]he children were always at the heart fo this. The Stark children, in particular, were always very central." The Starks are "the center of the story, when it begins.  . . . the Starks are the center of the book and, to a lesser extent, the Lannisters.

It is undoubtable that Dany is an incredibly important character to ASOIAF. If she wasn't, then she would've been an added POV later on, like Theon or Arianne or Davos or Jon Connington, etc. But she has never been the primary hero of the stories and the jury is out on whether or not she will actually be a hero to the people of Westeros. 

No, the Starks are not the primary characters in the novels.  All of the extra material, novellas, and short stories are about which family?  The Targaryens. Fire and Blood, Dunk & Egg, etc.  The Targaryens are the leading family of the novels.  The Starks are in the same plane as the Lannisters and the Baratheons.  High ranking to be sure, but not at the top.  We get pages of story about the Rogue Prince, not the Hungry Wolf because the Targaryens are the leads.  Daenerys' chapters were worthy enough to deserve their own novellas.  Daenerys is the lead among the top five main characters.  The others being Bran, Tyrion, Jon, and Arya.  The Targaryens belong in the topmost hierarchy because they are a long line of rulers.  Families like the Starks and Lannisters were chiefs of their own small kingdoms.  They are not on the same level.  Simply put, the Targaryens have made bigger and deeper footprints in the history of Essos and Westeros, thus the larger story revolves around them.  The main purpose of the Starks is to make the plot more accessible to the average reader who wants to read about family squabbles and everyday concerns.  But it is the Targaryens who pull the strings of that world. 

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