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Daenerys Should Sack Volantis, or require its Triarchs to do her Homage and bend the knee.

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On 9/7/2021 at 6:58 PM, Widowmaker 811 said:

Look objectively yourself. She rescued an army of abused eunuch soldiers from their masters. She is fighting a moral battle against slavers.  She defeated the warlocks of Quarth. She is the primary hero of the stories.  There are others who will be heroic at times, like Barristan, Greyworm, Brienne, Samwell, Bowen, and Tyrion. But she is the primary. 

That's the 'will to do good' part that I cited. It is a smokescreen that GRRM put up so expertly that that's all you apparently see :P.

However we aren't maybe as far apart as it seems: I'd love it if Dany really were 'the' heroine (only I'm afraid she isn't). And yes - she does have the Mhysa - side and tries to do good occasionally. That's the 'nuanced' thing that I also cited. It is just that the dragon - side has been there always too and her last chapter makes it clear the dragon side has won.

I will add another thing that also means we aren't as far apart as it may seem: I think that the dragon - side is not to be equated with evil. Danys story is not as simle as that. The dragon side is more brutal efficiency than evil per se. Brutal efficiency can have its place here and there. Sometimes it even prevents something even more bad from happening (think of Hiroshima which prevented huge scale slaugthers in battles that would have been necessary for an invasion). However it is highly situational. On other occasions brutal efficiency can be totally out of place too! If the Dany story keeps going the way it has been going for the existing 5 books then she will keep walking a tightrope between Mhysa and Dragon. That's cool and admirable. Sometimes she'll get it wrong though. However I am afraid (and pretty sure) that'd lately she has changed the balance and is now firmly off the middle course and into Dragon territory. That's because of her last chapter. Up to that point Dance with Dragons set her up in leaning too far towards Mhysa territory and fairly going overboard with it in her concessions towards the slavers. That failed. And that set the story up for her to turn to her other side: the Dragon way. And that'll set up the story for her dealing with the free cities and her invasion of Westeros. And yes. That is Sauron stuff, deny it all you want. That doesn't mean she isn't a cool character or anything. Or that she doesn't really have some justifications on her side. It still is an invasion complete with barbarians and weapons of mass destruction and there will be wholesale slaughter. No way around that in wars like this.

If I get my wish then Dany's invasion will produce something positive too insofar as she can help defeat the Others. That'll be some redemption for her. Hopefully.

 

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1 hour ago, Amris said:

That's the 'will to do good' part that I cited. It is a smokescreen that GRRM put up so expertly that that's all you apparently see :P.

However we aren't maybe as far apart as it seems: I'd love it if Dany really were 'the' heroine (only I'm afraid she isn't). And yes - she does have the Mhysa - side and tries to do good occasionally. That's the 'nuanced' thing that I also cited. It is just that the dragon - side has been there always too and her last chapter makes it clear the dragon side has won.

I will add another thing that also means we aren't as far apart as it may seem: I think that the dragon - side is not to be equated with evil. Danys story is not as simle as that. The dragon side is more brutal efficiency than evil per se. Brutal efficiency can have its place here and there. Sometimes it even prevents something even more bad from happening (think of Hiroshima which prevented huge scale slaugthers in battles that would have been necessary for an invasion). However it is highly situational. On other occasions brutal efficiency can be totally out of place too! If the Dany story keeps going the way it has been going for the existing 5 books then she will keep walking a tightrope between Mhysa and Dragon. That's cool and admirable. Sometimes she'll get it wrong though. However I am afraid (and pretty sure) that'd lately she has changed the balance and is now firmly off the middle course and into Dragon territory. That's because of her last chapter. Up to that point Dance with Dragons set her up in leaning too far towards Mhysa territory and fairly going overboard with it in her concessions towards the slavers. That failed. And that set the story up for her to turn to her other side: the Dragon way. And that'll set up the story for her dealing with the free cities and her invasion of Westeros. And yes. That is Sauron stuff, deny it all you want. That doesn't mean she isn't a cool character or anything. Or that she doesn't really have some justifications on her side. It still is an invasion complete with barbarians and weapons of mass destruction and there will be wholesale slaughter. No way around that in wars like this.

If I get my wish then Dany's invasion will produce something positive too insofar as she can help defeat the Others. That'll be some redemption for her. Hopefully.

 

A good ruler has to be both a dragon, and a mhysa.  It's not either/or.  That's what Aegon I and his sisters and Jaehaerys I were. A bad ruler is one who is just one or the other, like Aenys I and Maegor.  And if you want to be just a mhysa, then you need a dragon to act as your enforcer, like Daeron II and Bloodraven.  At any rate, that's the lesson that I derive from the lore and history of this series.  Sauron is not such a ruler.  

Edited by SeanF

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The lore and history of the series is there to learn from the lore and history, and Dany is willfully ignorant of it.

She doesn't know about the second Daenerys, so the lesson from that historical moment is lost on her. Result: she rejects both marriages (Quentyn and Hizdahr). 

She doesn't know about the history of Qarth and the Dothraki, or ponder why that dragon carcass was in the Red Waste. So she's not understanding why Qarth might not want to support her, or would even try to kill her.

She doesn't understand how the cities in the Red Waste died but doesn't want to create dead cities herself. Girl how are you gonna do that if you're ignorant of how said cities died in the first place? 

She doesn't think about how Valyrians with dragons enslaved the Ghiscari in the past, and that they're afraid of this happening again in the present. The Green Grace has to tell her this. Her historical igorance is a problem. GRRM said, "Maybe if she understood a few things more about dragons and her own history in Essos, things would have gone a little differently."

There is no balance between ruling personalities when she's so off base with history. If she's not learning from it she's going to repeat the worst of it. The lesson she learned from the books Jorah gave here were that "dragons are fire made flesh." Wow. Revelatory. 

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On 9/8/2021 at 5:48 PM, James Fenimore Cooper XXII said:

No, the Starks are not the primary characters in the novels.  All of the extra material, novellas, and short stories are about which family?  The Targaryens. Fire and Blood, Dunk & Egg, etc.  The Targaryens are the leading family of the novels.  The Starks are in the same plane as the Lannisters and the Baratheons.  High ranking to be sure, but not at the top.  We get pages of story about the Rogue Prince, not the Hungry Wolf because the Targaryens are the leads.  Daenerys' chapters were worthy enough to deserve their own novellas.  Daenerys is the lead among the top five main characters.  The others being Bran, Tyrion, Jon, and Arya.  The Targaryens belong in the topmost hierarchy because they are a long line of rulers.  Families like the Starks and Lannisters were chiefs of their own small kingdoms.  They are not on the same level.  Simply put, the Targaryens have made bigger and deeper footprints in the history of Essos and Westeros, thus the larger story revolves around them.  The main purpose of the Starks is to make the plot more accessible to the average reader who wants to read about family squabbles and everyday concerns.  But it is the Targaryens who pull the strings of that world. 

From the words of the author himself:

"The Seven Kingdoms is a single realm made of seven realms that once were independent and the North is perhaps the largest of those seven kingdoms. Winterfell is the seat of House Stark, which is the central family of the series." From this video at minute 1:10. There's extra material about other characters, sure, but GRRM has said time and time again the Starks are the central family.

 

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@StarksInTheNorth

Actions speak louder than words.  All Martin's actions have been directed towards the creation of more material to tell the reader about the history of House Targaryen.  More volume of the series are devoted to this House than any other.  Just because there are more Stark Pov doesn't mean anything.  They are a vehicle to be used to tell the story.  We know a lot more information about the Targaryens because their past, present, and future are the most important to the story.

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On 7/31/2021 at 11:07 PM, StarksInTheNorth said:

there's tons of hints towards a Dothraki attack coming to Volantis

Indeed there are.

Also, according to Qavo and the Widow of the Waterfront and Benerro, the followers of the Red God are formenting a slave revolt that will overthrow the triarchs. They look to the Silver Queen and claim that Volantis will burn if they fight against Daenerys. 

Clearly, Malaquo is going to regret that he didn't clear out the Red Temple when he had the chance. But not as much as he is going to regret sending the fleet of Old Volantis to Meereen. 

Tyrion noticed how depopulated the city generally was, and how many were slaves. The Widow mentioned that half her captains had offered their services to the Golden Company on their quest to take Westeros. Malaquo will regret every one of the dozen ships donated to that cause, too.

Conditions could not be better for Khal Pono to sack Volantis. I wonder where he plans to neither buy nor sell the slaves he takes from Volantis. Myr has huge slave-markets, but Pentos has the square turrets of the Red God's temples, the kind Melisandre saw submerged by a black and bloody tide ( I am guessing the black tide is either the Iron Fleet or Euron's fleet, not the armies of the dead from north of the wall).

Of course, Dany will need to deal with Khal Jaquo first. She has promised to avenge Eroah, and while she makes almost as many promises as Tyrion, she has form for keeping them. With the defeat of Jaquo, Khal Pono will be the strongest Khal, the largest obstacle to the fulfilment of the Stallion that Mounts the World prophecy that all the Dothraki will unite under the Stallion that Mounts the World, and ride to the Ends of the Earth.

Given Dany's vision of the Dosh Khaleen submitting to her, she must either defeat Khal Pono or marry him before heading to the Vale of the Thenns, or Hardhome, the Heart of Winter, or some other end of the earth (hopefully, she won't end up heading to Valyria, Yi Ti,  Sothoryos, or some further-flung end of the earth). 

Naturally, there will be some mopping up in Volantis and Pentos, and Lys, Myr and Tyrosh can be regarded as slave-cities and therefore against her. Dany probably won't be doing the mopping up, pursuing her destiny to mount the world.

But Barristan is going to go rogue and shatter Dany's peace with the Yunkai. The second he and the freedman divisions and the Unsullied march out of Meereen, Skahaz and his beasts will slam the gates shut behind them, and they and Dany's allies in Slaver's bay must move west via the Demon Road and/or the Smoking Seas, dealing with Dany's enemies in Yunkai, Astapor, New Ghis, Tolos, Elyria, Mantarys, and Qarth.

The Braavosi might not have truck with Dany, but if this lot can stay alive, they are exactly the type of people the Braavosi will want to deal with. Especially, as power rivals for Dany, and as people she might listen to. They have Tyrion on their side, thanks to Brown Ben and the Second Sons, so I must have some hope for their short-to-medium-term survival, in spite of the messy mop-up mission ahead of them.

If we look at Aegon's conquest, the Dragon Luftwaffe is very handy, but they need the fleets of infantry and colonisers to move in after the Dragon Riders have flown into the impregnable fortresses of the commanders, to consolidate the victories and implement the new rule.

Dany and Barry don't currently have any lines of communication. I am not sure they ever will. But she needs an admiral and a fleet. At the moment, that seems to mean either Victarion schlepping her men at Slaver's bay around to her at Vaes Dothrak (presumably travelling up the Rhoyne), or Euron summoning her via the Dragon Horn (he owned it when it was first winded, so maybe Drogon will fly to Nagga's bones on Old Wyck), where he will give her his fleet as a bride-gift.

The other fleets that might work for her are Aegon's, if they become allies, and the Redwyne fleet, if the South throw their lot in with her against Cersei. But it seems to me that Aegon and Daenerys are destined to be in opposition to each other, and Aegon is more likely to win the alliance of the South than Daenerys. Especially if Daenerys has any kind of alliance with the Ironborn.

However it works out for Dany, Volantis will burn. That is what Benarro saw in the comet. Osha and Old Nan and Melisandre agree, the comet means dragons breathing fire, and that is how Volantis will burn.

Edited by Walda
Eta: the Triarchs will burn

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On 8/24/2021 at 1:11 PM, Daeron the Daring said:

I assume the mediterranean area of Planetos will not suffer as harshly from the Winter that'll come. I think of the southern coast of Essos. If not, then certainly there will be food which will have a certain price (basically pretty high)...On the other hand: The Reach has a massive amount of food for winter, just as the Vale. Still, the Stormlands have no agriculture, nor does Dorne (nor they have the population compared to other kingdoms). But the Westerlands are exhausted, the North as well, the Crownlands and the Riverlands are already suffering. I suppose food will be purchased as long as there is food and money. By now noone can get more supplies, but wealth? Daenerys surely can. 

This act I'm talking about might save a few million people, but the entire population? No way. After all, it has to be the harshest winter in 10000 years. 

Grate point, it will come down to the reach and the vail. Little finger is already playing politics with the Vales bountiful harvest and food reserves. So i think it will come down to the reach, they are the bread basket of the realm. I also think it wont come down to money. House tyrell has alot to lose do to there alliance with the hated Lannister's. A queen Dani or King Agon might take these vast reserves of food as indemnity for there past betrayals.

As for how many this may help, well lets think about the harshness of asiof. This is cruel world and while some might get by this cruel long winter that's already hitting Westeros, many wont survive, no matter how much the good guys try.  

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On 9/3/2021 at 8:20 AM, Hrulj said:

Targaryens are misgenated mutts acording to Old Bloods of Volantis. Daenarys is 2.3% Targaryen, thanks to marriages to non Valyrians. She is not "The last true daughter of Valyria". Beyond the Black Walls of Old Volantis live the actual Valyrian nobility who preserved their bloods purity to the Valyrian standard. They also hold to the old Valyrian faith and culture, which at it's basis holds slavery. 

 

 

Laughable

The noble "Old bloods of Volantis" are the descendent of solders and guards who where the throw away of young Valyria when they set Volantis up as a trading post on the mouth of the river. Im sure they are proud though as they rejected marrying one of the precious daughters to the beautiful Rhaegar when Mad Ares tired to marry him off to the old blood. But even fools can be proud. The old blood are the epitome of the 1% who cant see beyond there greatness so the sit back and bask in there in history and wealth while in realty sinking into nothing. Valyria was great because they conquered and achieved a level of technological and civilizational greatness no other empires could match. While the old blood has done what? 

Dani is the new Valyria, she brought magic and dragons back to the world.

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On 9/11/2021 at 8:55 PM, Damsel in Distress said:

@StarksInTheNorth

Actions speak louder than words.  All Martin's actions have been directed towards the creation of more material to tell the reader about the history of House Targaryen.  More volume of the series are devoted to this House than any other.  Just because there are more Stark Pov doesn't mean anything.  They are a vehicle to be used to tell the story.  We know a lot more information about the Targaryens because their past, present, and future are the most important to the story.

This is not accurate. The extra material George has written about House Targaryen is nice and all, but it is not a part of the main series. The books comprising A Song of Ice and Fire features House Stark as the central family. Tertiary writings that relatively few will read do not affect this aspect of the series.

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The very name of the book series - A Song of Ice and Fire - would imply that the story is ultimately about forces of ice and fire and what happens when they come together. People who epitomize that are the main characters. If you had to boil the story down to two or three main characters, one of the two or three would always be Dany.

So, the story is about the Starks and the Targaryens. Both families are the tentpoles of the series. The Starks just get more POVs because they are in Westeros and the story in Westeros is multifaceted. Because to be honest, the series revolves around three characters: Bran, Dany and Jon. A Stark (ice), a Targaryen (fire), and a Stark/Targaryen (ice and fire). And the reason that each of those characters exist is because of Robert's Rebellion, the entire premise of which is an ice and fire fiasco:

  • northmen in Dorne at the Tower of Joy
  • Lyanna and Rhaegar...whatever it was
  • Aerys vs. Rickard and Brandon
  • Robert's passionate temperament vs. Eddard's chill temperament
  • the difference between Tywin's icy ruthlessness vs. Aerys' wildfire ruthlessness
  • the marriage of Eddard Stark (ice) and Catelyn Tully (freshwater, which essentially only strengthens the power of ice)
  • Dany's very conception ('nuff said) and birth (thunderstorms are created by clashes of hot and cold air, more extreme clashes create the worst storms and often feature lightning which is essentially another form of fire)

Bran, Dany and Jon should be the only POVs you need--but to tell a more nuanced, more beautiful, more coherent, more powerful story, you would need a POV from the villains and a POV for the more innocent bystanders that are the smallfolk: which is where Tyrion and Arya come in. Without those POVs, the saga can't effectively tell the story of what is happening on the ground level. Sansa comes in later as a necessary POV because she serves as both a bridge and a POV on behalf of the Westerosi nobility that is caught between the Starks, the Lannisters and the Targaryens...neither heroic nor villainous. After all, the average Westerosi nobleman is much more neutral, self-interested and largely detached/ignorant of the real problems of the story.

After the sextet of Bran, Arya, Tyrion, Sansa, Jon and Dany, the only other arguably necessary POVs would be:

  • the parent characters (Ned, Cat) which are basically extended prologues
  • a science-heavy adult character (which we got in Cressen, Sam and, to extent, Tyrion)
  • a religion-heavy and/or magic-heavy adult character (which we got with Mel, Aeron and to a lesser extent Davos and Catelyn)

After these six, the story POVs just balloon from there.

The only reasons that the Lannisters are only as important as they are is because they are the archenemies of both the Starks and the Targaryens. Team Stark and Team Targaryen are more than likely going to clash at some point but their common enemy (the Others, the Lannisters, the Baratheons, the Greyjoys, Littlefinger, probably Varys, etc.), common morals and common interests (home, family, security, etc.) is what ultimately unites them...even if only temporarily.

That being said, I believe that the reason that GRRM has worked so hard on the Targaryen side of things isn't because the Targaryens are more important than the Starks--I believe it's because the Stark stuff is rife with spoilers and is endgame material. Any tome revolving around the Stark family is going to have to depict the origins of the Children of the Forest, the Others, the first Long Night, the original Night King, the magic of the old gods, the magic of the Wall, the Winterfell crypts and a bunch of other stuff that can't be revealed until the final leg of the story.

Edited by BlackLightning

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On 9/11/2021 at 8:55 PM, Damsel in Distress said:

@StarksInTheNorth

Actions speak louder than words.  All Martin's actions have been directed towards the creation of more material to tell the reader about the history of House Targaryen.  More volume of the series are devoted to this House than any other.  Just because there are more Stark Pov doesn't mean anything.  They are a vehicle to be used to tell the story.  We know a lot more information about the Targaryens because their past, present, and future are the most important to the story.

Targaryen history is the most important and the most pivotal to the series.  If there are any remaining blood line from the rulers of the Great Empire of the Dawn, it is the Targaryen.  

On 9/14/2021 at 3:05 PM, Nathan Stark said:

This is not accurate. The extra material George has written about House Targaryen is nice and all, but it is not a part of the main series. The books comprising A Song of Ice and Fire features House Stark as the central family. Tertiary writings that relatively few will read do not affect this aspect of the series.

The D and E series, World of Ice and Fire, are not just extra material.  They add depth and understanding to what is happening right now.  They are part of the series.  What Egg, the Blackfyres, Rhaenyra, and Allysanne did in the past has affected the course of history of Westeros.  They affect just about everything in the story.  

4 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

The book series A Song of Ice and Fire would imply that the forces of ice and fire are the main characters. If you had to boil the story down to two or three main characters, one of the two or three would always be Dany.

The story is about the Starks and the Targaryens. Both families are the tentpoles of the series. The Starks just get more POVs because they are in Westeros and the story in Westeros is multifaceted. Because to be honest, the series revolves around three characters: Bran, Dany and Jon. A Stark (ice), a Targaryen (fire), and a Stark/Targaryen (ice and fire).

Those should be the only POVs you need--but to tell a more nuanced, beautiful, powerful story, you would need a POV from the villains and a POV for the more innocent bystanders that are the smallfolk: which is where Tyrion and Arya come in. Sansa comes in later because she serves as both a bridge and a POV on behalf of the Westerosi nobility that is neither heroic nor villainous. The Westerosi nobleman is much more neutral, self-interested and largely ignorant of the real problems of the story.

After the sextet of Bran, Arya, Tyrion, Sansa, Jon and Dany, the only other necessary POVs would be:

  • the parent characters (Ned, Cat) which are basically extended prologues
  • a science-heavy adult character (which we got in Cressen, Sam and, to extent, Tyrion)
  • a religion-heavy adult character (which we got with Mel and Aeron and to a lesser extent Davos and Catelyn)

After these six, the story POVs just balloon from there.

The only reasons that the Lannisters are only as important as they are is because they are the archenemies of both the Starks and the Targaryens. Team Stark and Team Targaryen are more than likely going to clash at some point but their common enemy (the Others, the Lannisters, the Baratheons, etc.), common morals and common interests (home, family, security, etc.) is what ultimately unites them...even if only temporarily.

That being said, I believe that the reason that GRRM has worked so hard on the Targaryen side of things isn't because the Targaryens are more important than the Starks--I believe it's because the Stark stuff is rife with spoilers and is endgame material. Any tome revolving around the Stark family is going to have to depict the origins of the Children of the Forest, the Others, the first Long Night, the original Night King, the magic of the old gods, the magic of the Wall, the Winterfell crypts and a bunch of other stuff that can't be revealed until the final leg of the story.

Even among the top three characters, there is one who is the primary.  I believe that lead character is Daenerys Targaryen.  #2 and #3 are Jon and Tyrion.  Bran is #4.  Arya is not even all that necessary other than to represent the destructive and demented person who goes on revenge.  

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16 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

The book series A Song of Ice and Fire would imply that the forces of ice and fire are the main characters. If you had to boil the story down to two or three main characters, one of the two or three would always be Dany.

The story is about the Starks and the Targaryens. Both families are the tentpoles of the series. The Starks just get more POVs because they are in Westeros and the story in Westeros is multifaceted. Because to be honest, the series revolves around three characters: Bran, Dany and Jon. A Stark (ice), a Targaryen (fire), and a Stark/Targaryen (ice and fire).

Those should be the only POVs you need--but to tell a more nuanced, beautiful, powerful story, you would need a POV from the villains and a POV for the more innocent bystanders that are the smallfolk: which is where Tyrion and Arya come in. Sansa comes in later because she serves as both a bridge and a POV on behalf of the Westerosi nobility that is neither heroic nor villainous. The Westerosi nobleman is much more neutral, self-interested and largely ignorant of the real problems of the story.

After the sextet of Bran, Arya, Tyrion, Sansa, Jon and Dany, the only other necessary POVs would be:

  • the parent characters (Ned, Cat) which are basically extended prologues
  • a science-heavy adult character (which we got in Cressen, Sam and, to extent, Tyrion)
  • a religion-heavy adult character (which we got with Mel and Aeron and to a lesser extent Davos and Catelyn)

After these six, the story POVs just balloon from there.

The only reasons that the Lannisters are only as important as they are is because they are the archenemies of both the Starks and the Targaryens. Team Stark and Team Targaryen are more than likely going to clash at some point but their common enemy (the Others, the Lannisters, the Baratheons, etc.), common morals and common interests (home, family, security, etc.) is what ultimately unites them...even if only temporarily.

That being said, I believe that the reason that GRRM has worked so hard on the Targaryen side of things isn't because the Targaryens are more important than the Starks--I believe it's because the Stark stuff is rife with spoilers and is endgame material. Any tome revolving around the Stark family is going to have to depict the origins of the Children of the Forest, the Others, the first Long Night, the original Night King, the magic of the old gods, the magic of the Wall, the Winterfell crypts and a bunch of other stuff that can't be revealed until the final leg of the story.

I agree with that.  The Starks and Targaryens are just two sides of the same coin.  And their destinies are bound up with each other.  They are absolutely NOT Gryffindor v Slytherin.

Edited by SeanF

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On 9/14/2021 at 1:51 AM, House Selmy said:

Laughable

The noble "Old bloods of Volantis" are the descendent of solders and guards who where the throw away of young Valyria when they set Volantis up as a trading post on the mouth of the river. Im sure they are proud though as they rejected marrying one of the precious daughters to the beautiful Rhaegar when Mad Ares tired to marry him off to the old blood. But even fools can be proud. The old blood are the epitome of the 1% who cant see beyond there greatness so the sit back and bask in there in history and wealth while in realty sinking into nothing. Valyria was great because they conquered and achieved a level of technological and civilizational greatness no other empires could match. While the old blood has done what? 

Dani is the new Valyria, she brought magic and dragons back to the world.

They can be descended for beggars for all it matters, they preserved the Valyrian blood purity where others have all failed.

The fact that they rejected Rhegar, Aerys etc shows their genius. Why tie yourself to madmen who aren't even Valyrian.

Conquered and failed. Life is about improving living standards, not conquests. Old bloods have saved more lives than Targaryens ever ruled by not pushing for wars in Essos. 

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1 hour ago, Hrulj said:

They can be descended for beggars for all it matters, they preserved the Valyrian blood purity where others have all failed.

The fact that they rejected Rhegar, Aerys etc shows their genius. Why tie yourself to madmen who aren't even Valyrian.

Conquered and failed. Life is about improving living standards, not conquests. Old bloods have saved more lives than Targaryens ever ruled by not pushing for wars in Essos. 

The Old Blood have caused suffering to millions, and are causing Volantis to rot away.

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20 hours ago, Hrulj said:

Conquered and failed. Life is about improving living standards, not conquests. Old bloods have saved more lives than Targaryens ever ruled by not pushing for wars in Essos. 

We don't know that.

There were more dragons left behind in the Freehold. Obviously something happened and all the dragons left in Essos died off before all the ones in Westeros died off.

On 9/15/2021 at 5:45 PM, SeanF said:

I agree with that.  The Starks and Targaryens are just two sides of the same coin.  And their destinies are bound up with each other.  They are absolutely NOT Gryffindor v Slytherin.

Agreed.

That's why I think Bran becoming the King of Westeros in the end makes sense. If Dany and Jon combine their claims (or if Jon's claim completely supersedes Dany's), then Bran would be the logical heir if something happened to both Dany and Jon.

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43 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

We don't know that.

There were more dragons left behind in the Freehold. Obviously something happened and all the dragons left in Essos died off before all the ones in Westeros died off.

I agree with the fact that the old blood has caused more wars in a century than the targaryens have done during the entire reign.

45 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

 

That's why I think Bran becoming the King of Westeros in the end makes sense. If Dany and Jon combine their claims (or if Jon's claim completely supersedes Dany's), then Bran would be the logical heir if something happened to both Dany and Jon.

I don’t believe house stark has any claim to the iron throne, and even if it did Bran will come before Jon since Jon is Ned’s bastard. Actually Jon can’t claim anything since he is a crow right. And most importantly he is dead. So Jon never had a claim and can’t claim anything now

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22 hours ago, Daenerysthegreat said:

I don’t believe house stark has any claim to the iron throne, and even if it did Bran will come before Jon since Jon is Ned’s bastard. Actually Jon can’t claim anything since he is a crow right. And most importantly he is dead. So Jon never had a claim and can’t claim anything now

You're not getting it.

The Iron Throne belongs to House Targaryen just as much as Winterfell belongs to House Stark.

If something happens to Stannis, Aegon, Dany and Jon (i.e. the last true claimants in the series), then the Iron Throne would be pass to whoever is next of kin. Stannis, Aegon and Dany have no living relatives. Jon, however, does: he has Sansa, Arya, Bran and Rickon. Bran is the eldest male in that line so the line of succession would go: Bran, Rickon, Sansa and Arya.

Bran, already, should be the rightful King in the North and the Trident per the will of Robb Stark. And Bran is also be the rightful Lord of Harrenhal after the death of Lady Shella Whent and his mother and his uncle's position as  the Lord of Riverrun. So it's not that big of a leap for Bran to become the King of All Westeros. He's already positioned to be an exceptionally powerful person.

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4 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

You're not getting it.

The Iron Throne belongs to House Targaryen just as much as Winterfell belongs to House Stark.

If something happens to Stannis, Aegon, Dany and Jon (i.e. the last true claimants in the series), then the Iron Throne would be pass to whoever is next of kin. Stannis, Aegon and Dany have no living relatives. Jon, however, does: he has Sansa, Arya, Bran and Rickon. Bran is the eldest male in that line so the line of succession would go: Bran, Rickon, Sansa and Arya.

Bran, already, should be the rightful King in the North and the Trident per the will of Robb Stark. And Bran is also be the rightful Lord of Harrenhal after the death of Lady Shella Whent and his mother and his uncle's position as  the Lord of Riverrun. So it's not that big of a leap for Bran to become the King of All Westeros. He's already positioned to be an exceptionally powerful person.

I thin you are not getting what I am saying, Jon has zero claim to the iron throne. Ned stark had zero claim to the iron throne, Wylla(or ashara) had zero claim to the iron throne so from where did Jon who is a bastard even get a claim. 
It is that big of a leap to crown bran stark who everyone believes dead king of westeros

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3 minutes ago, Daenerysthegreat said:

I thin you are not getting what I am saying, Jon has zero claim to the iron throne. Ned stark had zero claim to the iron throne, Wylla(or ashara) had zero claim to the iron throne so from where did Jon who is a bastard even get a claim.

Rhaegar Targaryen

Jon is not a bastard.

4 minutes ago, Daenerysthegreat said:

It is that big of a leap to crown bran stark who everyone believes dead king of westeros

Everyone does not believe Bran is dead.

Wyman Manderly, Wex Pyke, Davos Seaworth, Rickon Stark, Theon Greyjoy, the Boltons, Barbrey Dustin, Samwell Tarly, Gilly, etc. all know that Bran was not murdered at Winterfell.

People know what Bran looks like anyways. If he turns up with his direwolf and Meera Reed (which he likely will), people are not going to screaming "Pretender! Usurper!" at him.

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6 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

Rhaegar Targaryen

Jon is not a bastard.

Now now I am new to the fandom but I think rhaegar being Jon’s father is high level tinfoil(that’s what you call ridiculous theories right)

Most importantly Neither Jon nor bran have anything to do with the triachs or volantis so let’s get back to the subject

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