Howland Reed is the KotLT - Proof by Canon

[direpupy]

2 hours ago, LynnS said:

Oh really! Thanks for bringing that up.

It does not change much in regards of the point you where making, between the tournament and they "abduction" there is at least a couple of months since the tournament is 281 and the "abduction" was at the coming of the new year according to The World of Ice and Fire. This is corroborated by the fact that the war that sprang from it ended in 283 while according to Ned it had lasted "close to a year" so it must have started at least one month into 282.

So she probably did return to Winterfell just like you thought and was probably coming back south to attend Brandon's wedding to Catelyn at Riverrun.

[LynnS]

1 minute ago, direpupy said:

It does not change much in regards of the point you where making, between the tournament and they "abduction" there is at least a couple of months since the tournament is 281 and the "abduction" was at the coming of the new year according to The World of Ice and Fire. This is corroborated by the fact that the war that sprang from it ended in 283 while according to Ned it had lasted "close to a year" so it must have started at least one month into 282.

So she probably did return to Winterfell just like you thought and was probably coming back south to attend Brandon's wedding to Catelyn at Riverrun.

Thank you for verifying.  This is the thing I don't like about Martin's timekeeping.  Planetos is earth-like planet in an alternate universe.  So I assume it has the same solar year, months and 24 hour day.  The seasons are messed up.  It gets confused when determining how long apart events are placed.  We get something happened in this year and then this happened in another year; is that a full 12 months or a few months?  

[Julia H.]

8 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Thank you for verifying.  This is the thing I don't like about Martin's timekeeping.  Planetos is earth-like planet in an alternate universe.  So I assume it has the same solar year, months and 24 hour day.  The seasons are messed up.  It gets confused when determining how long apart events are placed.  We get something happened in this year and then this happened in another year; is that a full 12 months or a few months?  

In terms of years, people seem to grow up a bit earlier than people on Earth, but this may be only the "medieval" reality or approach to growing up. Some people live very long lives, but perhaps not impossibly long ones by our standards (not counting the heroes of legend). So I guess the year must be about the same length as here - but it is certainly not based on the changing of the seasons. Maybe the seasons used to be more regular once and they have their calendar based on tradition. 

ETA: We really need Howland Reed to make his appearance in "real time" at last!

[LynnS]

2 minutes ago, Julia H. said:

In terms of years, people seem to grow up a bit earlier than people on Earth, but this may be only the "medieval" reality or approach to growing up. Some people live very long lives, but perhaps not impossibly long ones by our standards (not counting the heroes of legend). So I guess the year must be about the same length as here - but it is certainly not based on the changing of the seasons. Maybe the seasons used to be more regular once and they have their calendar based on tradition. 

Oh what I meant was how to determine the length of time for two events in relation to each other.  Did event A happen at the end of one year and event B a full year later or a few months into the new year?  We're told what year events occur but you really have to dig to find out when in the year they occur. 

[direpupy]

22 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Thank you for verifying.  This is the thing I don't like about Martin's timekeeping.  Planetos is earth-like planet in an alternate universe.  So I assume it has the same solar year, months and 24 hour day.  The seasons are messed up.  It gets confused when determining how long apart events are placed.  We get something happened in this year and then this happened in another year; is that a full 12 months or a few months?  

I dug some more and its actually more like 11 months the tournament is announced in late 280 when the false spring starts and also takes place during the false spring. But the false spring only lasted 2 months, so the last month of 280 and the first month of 281 and the "abduction takes place right after the coming of the new year so the first days of 282

There is no way Lyanna was in the Riverlands all that time so she definitely went back to Winterfel

[Julia H.]

7 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Oh what I meant was how to determine the length of time for two events in relation to each other.  Did event A happen at the end of one year and event B a full year later or a few months into the new year?  We're told what year events occur but you really have to dig to find out when in the year they occur. 

Oh, yes, the seasons are mixed up and they don't seem to have names for the months (or do they?) - I wonder how they are able to tell when something happened.

[LynnS]

2 minutes ago, direpupy said:

I dug some more and its actually more like 11 months the tournament is announced in late 280 when the false spring starts and also takes place during the false spring. But the false spring only lasted 2 months, so the last month of 280 and the first month of 281 and the "abduction takes place right after the coming of the new year so the first days of 282

There is no way Lyanna was in the Riverlands all that time so she definitely went back to Winterfel

Oh thank you for digging into it!  

[LynnS]

I feel pretty strongly that Bran 'happened" at the tourney and had his day as a Knight.  He said it would be enough.

In a private conversation. it was pointed out to me that Howland didn't actually refuse the offer of a horse and armour.  He just doesn't give them an answer.  He goes and prays on it to the gods on the Isle of Faces.   It was suggested that if Howland didn't think he could win the day', he would be shamed even further.  Unless he had an ace up his sleeve.  So he may well have taken the Starks up on their offer.  We just don't know what he said. 

What was changed was that Howland won the day.  What's ambiguous about the story Meera tells is that Howland never names the knight and never takes credit for himself.

Martin mentions the ripple back in time effect of Bran's powers.  If Bran is dreaming of spring; is the ripple effect, the false spring? 

[the Other Wolf]

6 hours ago, LynnS said:

I feel pretty strongly that Bran 'happened" at the tourney

I think Bran "happening" in a lot of places is a real possibility. 

However, I have to interject again after re-reading your points. I believe you have reached a logical fallacy in your conclusion based on your supporting documentation. 

It seems your main arguments for Howland being the KotLT are; the children having a greathelm, the "in universe" book of history and the assumption that Bran is a force in the events of the tourney.

Even if it was provable that the helm is the greathelm that would still not prove it was worn by Howland.

The World book was written in universe. Even if GRRM wrote every word it would not prove what you are wanting it to prove. It is a book within a book and the information in it is written by a Maester in said universe. I do not know how else to get this point across, but we can not rely on any information within that book.  An exception would be the information in the book is what the people of Westeros believe happened, so times of events should be reliable.  With that said, I think all the points you use from that book do not prove anything about Howland being the KotLT.

About Bran, I agree he very well may play a part at the tourney. I like the false spring line too. Although, again there is no evidence for Howland being the actual KotLT.

It is clear that you are all in, but be careful that you are not so focused on what you are wanting it to be and miss something important that could be a key to the true events.

I think you could get further with others regarding this topic if you acknowledge the above and try to rework your arguments.

Respectfully 

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, the Other Wolf said:

I think you could get further with others regarding this topic if you acknowledge the above and try to rework your arguments.

Thank you for your comments and I take them in the spirit offered.  I am going to stand my ground on the basic point of the greathelm regardless of any explanation as to how Howland could win the day.  Meera shows up with the ame equipment that Howland had when he first meets the Starks: a shirt of bronze scales, a net, spear which have most likely been passed down to her from her father.  That puts the greathelm into the same basket, so to speak; something that has significance and meaning to Howland.  A greathelm is only used for jousting and I think the evidence is clear that Howland kept this piece of equipment and passed it on to Meera along with the story of the KotLT.

What I want personally is for Westeros.org to get credit for unmasking the KotLT.

[the Other Wolf]

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

a shirt of bronze scales, a net, spear which have most likely been passed down to her from her father.  That puts the greathelm into the same basket,

I would classify any articles of the armor under my previous comments about the helm, i.e. possession of similar armor does not equal them being the same items nor does it mean Howland is definitely the KotLT.  

Thanks again for providing a non what if I rewrite the story and make it a different story and ask what imaginary people would do in my alternate story thread.

There you go. I will leave it be.

[Nevets]

Greathelms are not primarily used for jousting.  That is the frog-mouthed helm, described as evolving from the greathelm, which was widely used by knights in the early middle ages.

It is quite possible that the greathelm carried by Meera is the one used by the KotLT.  That doesn't help, though.  Lyanna could have given it to Howland, possibly to hide it (though I think the shield was the only identifiable item), or Howland could have taken it after she discarded it.  Given its condition, I doubt it originally came from the Starks' supply.  I've no idea why Meera would be carrying it, as it is not particularly useful on foot.

Most clues, such as the apparent skill of the rider and Rhaegar's interest in Lyanna, point to her being the KotLT and not Howland.  At this point, I see no reason to think Bran is affecting the past. 

11 hours ago, direpupy said:

I dug some more and its actually more like 11 months the tournament is announced in late 280 when the false spring starts and also takes place during the false spring. But the false spring only lasted 2 months, so the last month of 280 and the first month of 281 and the "abduction takes place right after the coming of the new year so the first days of 282

There is no way Lyanna was in the Riverlands all that time so she definitely went back to Winterfel

It is perfectly reasonable for her to be there.  She is engaged to marry a southerner, and it makes sense that she might stay behind to get some southern experience and get some rough edges smoothed out.  Given her brother's upcoming marriage at Riverrun ,she limits her travel.  Going to RR, she would likely have a small escort of guards (3-5 maybe), and companions and baggage handlers, any of whom could report what happened.  

[LynnS]

11 minutes ago, Nevets said:

Greathelms are not primarily used for jousting.  That is the frog-mouthed helm, described as evolving from the greathelm, which was widely used by knights in the early middle ages.

I think it's straight forward.  Howland kept the greathelm he used in the jousting and he passed it on to Meera. What I recognize is that a large part of the fandom believes that Lyanna is the KotLT because it is part of the romance narrative that has been built into RLJ.  Specifically, R + L = J = PWIP/AA.  This is the bias that I'm up against.  I don't think I can convince anyone who doesn't want to be convinced.  Regardless, the evidence of the greathelm is strong evidence from the text that Howland is the KotLT. 

[LynnS]

I don't want to turn this into an RLJ thread.  We already have one of those and the arguments for Lyanna have already been made.  If anyone wants to discuss how Bran may have intervened; that would be breaking new ground and might give us a better understanding of Bran's powers and place in the wider story.

[direpupy]

4 hours ago, Nevets said:

It is perfectly reasonable for her to be there.  She is engaged to marry a southerner, and it makes sense that she might stay behind to get some southern experience and get some rough edges smoothed out.  Given her brother's upcoming marriage at Riverrun ,she limits her travel.  Going to RR, she would likely have a small escort of guards (3-5 maybe), and companions and baggage handlers, any of whom could report what happened.  

If they wanted that it would have made more sence to send her to the Stormlands where she would have been expected to live after here marriage and get to know the Stormlands customs, and such a thing would have been worth mentioning in the book so its very doubtful this is the case.

It is far more likely she went home and then came back down for her brothers wedding, after all Brandon heard about what happened at Riverrun where he was for his marriage.

[LynnS]

The main arguments against the greathelm as proof; seem to be that it could be any old greathelm that one could find in a bog or barring that, it's proof that Lyanna gave it to Howland as a memento of her deeds on his behalf.

I think that a man who was shamed and humiliated once, would not appreciate being humiliated twice, by allowing a girl to fight his battles for him.  Giving him the helm as a reminder of that shame isn't a story that Howland would tell his kids again and again... and here's the greathelm proof of my shame.   I don't think is is who Howland is or that Lyanna would want to embarrass him again.  If that were the case, Howland would be more likely to sink the helm in the bog never to see it again and we'd never hear the story of the KotLT at all.   

Did Martin really add this detail to the story for the purpose of minimizing Howland's role or to embellish Lyanna's story? 

 

[Frey family reunion]

3 hours ago, LynnS said:

I think that a man who was shamed and humiliated once, would not appreciate being humiliated twice, by allowing a girl to fight his battles for him.  Giving him the helm as a reminder of that shame isn't a story that Howland would tell his kids again and again... and here's the greathelm proof of my shame.   I don't think is is who Howland is or that Lyanna would want to embarrass him again.  If that were the case, Howland would be more likely to sink the helm in the bog never to see it again and we'd never hear the story of the KotLT at all.   

Did Martin really add this detail to the story for the purpose of minimizing Howland's role or to embellish Lyanna's story? 

I agree with your sentiment here.  Which is why I think the Knight of the Laughing Tree was probably a partnership between Lyanna and Howland.

While the idea of Bran's intervention is an interesting one, I'm not sure the magic in the series is this Deus Ex Machina.  I think that there may be limitations.  So the question is, how would a time travelling Bran have been able to reach back and make Howland a skilled rider and competent jouster, when Bran himself could ride a horse prior to his fall, I don't think he was ever singled out as an exceptional horseman, and it's never been established that Bran was a prodigy in the jousting department.  So how could Bran impart skills he probably didn't have himself onto Howland?

That's not to say Bran couldn't have looked back and given a subtle boost perhaps with a well timed gust of wind...

But more to the point, I think that there are practical considerations for both Howland and Lyanna acting alone.  Neither one, acting alone, should be able to defeat three experienced jousters.  Lyanna's only leg up on Howland here, is that she is a more experienced horse rider.  So at the very least she would be able to more easily look the part of a jouster on top of the horse.  

But since the whole point of this excercise was to single out these three jousters (all of whom won their earlier matches) I doubt that the entire plan rested on hoping that Lyanna would have beginner's luck three times in a row.

Which is why I think the plan was for Howland to use his abilities behind the scene to ensure Lyanna came out on top for all three jousters.

(We might see a bit of a parallel in the Hand's tourney, when Loras chose a mare in heat to get the leg up on the Mountain.)

So in this scenario, both Howland and Lyanna play equal measures in the revenge scheme, each actor playing to their strengths.  Which also in turn prevents the problem that you've correctly pointed out that Howland is once again the helpless victim with Lyanna coming in to save the day.  

As for the idea of a romance, I kind of think the story might be one, but not the one that most suppose.  If we have a situation where Lyanna and Howland are working together, then what we're probably seeing is the beginning of a real, honest to goodness relationship between two people.  As opposed to the one that would have come from nowhere with Rhaegar.

Now whether that relationship between Lyanna and Howland was only one of friendship, or the start of something more,  I'm not sure.  But whatever it was is probably more real, then the singer's tales of lyanna and Rhaegar.

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

Now whether that relationship between Lyanna and Howland was only one of friendship, or the start of something more,  I'm not sure.  But whatever it was is probably more real, then the singer's tales of lyanna and Rhaegar.

OK, so you are advocating for a partnership between Howland and Lyanna and that would be new ground.  I will advocate for a partnership between Howland and Bran and I expect that will be a lot harder for people to swallow than your proposal.    Except for the above statement and I'll let you defend that one.

I'll come back later this afternoon with my proposal.

[LynnS]

Upthread, I quoted an excerpt from the book "Fire Cannot Kill a Dragon" by James Hibberd; where Maetin talks about experimenting with time and causality in the story.  We don't really know what he means by it but he he has been thinking about at least since he introduced Hodor Game of Thrones.  His explanation for Hodor's condition is that it has it's cause sometime in the future when Bran enters his mind so powerfully that it makes Hodor simple-minded.  So future cause creating an observable effect in the past. 

He also talks about the meaning of Hodor as not so much hold the door as hold the pass.  That put me in mind of the battle with the wights at the entry to Bloodraven's cave.  Something quite extraordinary happens:

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Bran II

"Hoooodor" came a whimper, from somewhere down below.

And suddenly he was not Bran, the broken boy crawling through the snow, suddenly he was Hodor halfway down the hill, with the wight raking at his eyes. Roaring, he came lurching to his feet, throwing the thing violently aside. It went to one knee, began to rise again. Bran ripped Hodor's longsword from his belt. Deep inside he could hear poor Hodor whimpering still, but outside he was seven feet of fury with old iron in his hand. He raised the sword and brought it down upon the dead man, grunting as the blade sheared through wet wool and rusted mail and rotted leather, biting deep into the bones and flesh beneath. "HODOR!" he bellowed, and slashed again. This time he took the wight's head off at the neck, and for half a moment he exulted … until a pair of dead hands came groping blindly for his throat.

Bran backed away, bleeding, and Meera Reed was there, driving her frog spear deep into the wight's back. "Hodor," Bran roared again, waving her uphill. "Hodor, hodor." Jojen was twisting feebly where she'd laid him down. Bran went to him, dropped the longsword, gathered the boy into Hodor's arm, and lurched back to his feet. "HODOR!" he bellowed.

 This is not the usual way in which Bran skinchanges Hodor.  There is no conscious decision on Bran's part to take his and yet he seems to be called into Hodor by Hodor himself, his whimper, a cry for help.  Suddenly Bran-Hodor is the supercharged giant roaring, bellowing and holding the pass until everyone reaches safety.

We could consider that this is a kind of template; something that Howland Reed is also able to do; call for the help of the gods to "strengthen his arm".

Is is possible for Bran to even have such a connection to Howland in the past?  We also have the example Tree-Bran talking to Jon at the Skirling Pass.  This is well into Bran's future since he has has not yet left the crypts at Winterfell, crossed the Wall or become wed to the tree.   Bran then makes a connection to Jon by touching his third eye.  We know that one of Howland's magics is that he can talk to trees.  Have we been shown what that looks like in this interaction with Jon?

We also know that Bran himself has memories of the tree-Bran Jon encounter.  He says that he dreamed of touching Ghost and talking to Jon.  This could be an example of the memories rippling back in time with the cause in the future..

Is there anything about Bran that suggests he has such memories of the Harrenhall tourney?  There is a hint that he does when he says:  "It was the little crannogman, I told you."  A pretty strong declarative statement.

Bran also expresses this desire:

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Bran II

"Are you certain you never heard this tale before, Bran?" asked Jojen. "Your lord father never told it to you?"

Bran shook his head. The day was growing old by then, and long shadows were creeping down the mountainsides to send black fingers through the pines. If the little crannogman could visit the Isle of Faces, maybe I could too. All the tales agreed that the green men had strange magic powers. Maybe they could help him walk again, even turn him into a knight. They turned the little crannogman into a knight, even if it was only for a day, he thought. A day would be enough.

It seems likely to me that he will visit the Isle of Faces, talk to the green men and talk to Howland.  And he will turn himself into a knight for one day.  I think story Meera tells is essentially about the partnership between Bran and Howland who are both the knight of the laughing tree.

In terms of a future cause and a past effect, is there anything that is anomalous or unusual about the tournament.  Yes, the false spring as in "a dream of spring.  If this is indeed caused by Bran in the future; it opens the wider question of the underlying magical cause for the seasons to be unbalanced.

Finally, if Howland has had contact with Bran, then it brings additional focus to the events at the Tower of Joy and why Howland intervened to save Ned's life.  Because Ned has to survive for Bran to be born. 

 

[LynnS]

12 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

Now whether that relationship between Lyanna and Howland was only one of friendship, or the start of something more,  I'm not sure.  But whatever it was is probably more real, then the singer's tales of lyanna and Rhaegar.

This is starting to look like a strong possibility for Howland + Lyanna = Jon/Night King of Winter. 

12 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

But since the whole point of this excercise was to single out these three jousters (all of whom won their earlier matches) I doubt that the entire plan rested on hoping that Lyanna would have beginner's luck three times in a row.

Which is why I think the plan was for Howland to use his abilities behind the scene to ensure Lyanna came out on top for all three jousters.

I'm not sure that Howland had the kind of magic to fix the odds for Lyanna or that Lyanna had the strength to defeat three experienced knights.  If Howland had any kind of magic would he discuss that with Lyanna?   Would she believe him or would she ask why he didn't use it when he was first attacked by the squires.  Ned doesn't seem to believe in magic, so I'm not sure that Lyanna would be the exception. 

It seems more likely to me that Howland was able to call on the power of the old gods when he needed it:

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Bran II

"The porcupine knight, the pitchfork knight, and the knight of the twin towers." Bran had heard enough stories to know that. "He was the little crannogman, I told you."

"Whoever he was, the old gods gave strength to his arm. The porcupine knight fell first, then the pitchfork knight, and lastly the knight of the two towers. None were well loved, so the common folk cheered lustily for the Knight of the Laughing Tree, as the new champion soon was called. When his fallen foes sought to ransom horse and armor, the Knight of the Laughing Tree spoke in a booming voice through his helm, saying, 'Teach your squires honor, that shall be ransom enough.' Once the defeated knights chastised their squires sharply, their horses and armor were returned. And so the little crannogman's prayer was answered . . . by the green men, or the old gods, or the children of the forest, who can say?"

Medieval jousting saddle.  The only thing missing are seat belts.

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