Howland Reed is the KotLT - Proof by Canon

[direpupy]

<snip> i have decided that this post could only lead to more off topic discussion so i deleted it

[Megorova]

8 minutes ago, LynnS said:

It also doesn't mean she would take it upon herself to enter the tourney to teach the knights a lesson. 

Though she did took it upon herself to fight off those three squires that attacked Howland. So there's a contradiction between your logic about what Lyanna would or wouldn't have done and what Lyanna actually did.

10 minutes ago, LynnS said:

He tells it to them as a lesson in bravery and courage about the little crannogman. 

It's a story about how met their mother (Ashara Dayne) and how he became indebted to Lyanna Stark (because she fought for him at the tournament as the Mystery Knight, because he was unskilled and couldn't have done it himself). And that's why he went after Rhaegar to find Lyanna, and then informed Ned that Lyanna is at Starfall, and why he went with Ned to the Tower of Joy to prevent the Kingsguards from leaving Dorne and telling about Jon.

13 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Jojen is there to teach and guide him.

Jojen is there because he's a slave to the Weirwood/the Others. The Children used him as a bait to lure Bran into a trap. Bloodraven is not the Three-Eyed Crow. The 3EC never intended for Bran to wed with a tree, like she did it to Bloodraven. The 3EC is Shiera Seastar, and she is the one who trapped Bloodraven in that cave. It's a parallel to the legend about wizard Merlin's death - his lover, Lady of the Lake (the one who gave the sword to King Arthur), lured Merlin into a trap, and binded him to a magic tree in a cave.

[LynnS]

1 minute ago, Megorova said:

Though she did took it upon herself to fight off those three squires that attacked Howland. So there's a contradiction between your logic about what Lyanna would or wouldn't have done and what Lyanna actually did.

There is no contradiction here.  She came upon the scene and reacted in anger.  She's Lord Stark's daughter and has the authority and upper hand in that as well. Good for her.  Any decent person would have done the same. But cooler heads prevail.  It doesn't mean she would take vengeance for Howland.  She would likely give him the grace to do that for himself if she had any wits about her at all.

4 minutes ago, Megorova said:

It's a story about how met their mother (Ashara Dayne) and how he became indebted to Lyanna Stark (because she fought for him at the tournament as the Mystery Knight, because he was unskilled and couldn't have done it himself). And that's why he went after Rhaegar to find Lyanna, and then informed Ned that Lyanna is at Starfall, and why he went with Ned to the Tower of Joy to prevent the Kingsguards from leaving Dorne and telling about Jon.

He is not indebted to Lyanna Stark. It's a story about how he prevailed.  That's why he tells his kids the story.  All we know about the Tower of Joy is that Howland intervened to save Ned's life. Most likely by trapping Arthur under a net before he could kill Ned.  What happened after that is anyone's guess.  I like to think that neither Ned or Howland dealt a killing blow; that Arthur had already received a mortal wound.  I don't see how either of them could have come out of that melee without a scratch.  

19 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Jojen is there because he's a slave to the Weirwood/the Others. The Children used him as a bait to lure Bran into a trap.

Jojen is there because of his green dreams and because Howland sent them to guide and protect Bran.

[Nevets]

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

Lyanna may have been more skilled than the average girl at riding such that she was compared to a centaur, that doesn't give her any magical powers over a horse.  It only gives her some skill.  It also doesn't mean she would take it upon herself to enter the tourney to teach the knights a lesson.  That's not something Howland would appreciate and it would shame him further.  He is the only person who can take vengeance and reclaim his honor.  I think the Starks recognize that and leave the decision to him.  They offer the equipment, they don't offer to do it for him. 

Howland doesn't tell his kids this story to make Lyanna the hero.  He tells it to them as a lesson in bravery and courage about the little crannogman.  It's about overcoming the odds when they are not in your favor.  It's an important lesson for them to remember as they will be sent at some point to help Bran.  Meera goes with bronze and iron to protect Bran.  Jojen is there to teach and guide him. Still they say it is his decision to become a GSeer.  How does Jojen know this?  Because when he started to have green dreams he consulted with his father; who already knows that it is Bran's destiny is to become a GSeer. 

As for the helm,  the knight left the tourney after his victory and didn't show up again.  Nobody knew what happened to him.  All he left behind was the shield.  So chances are it's the same greathelm in Meera's possession as well as the same shirt of bronze scales.

We don't know why Howland told his children the story of the mystery knight (assuming it was him).  It could be to explain his deep respect for the Starks.  Lyanna exacted vengeance on his behalf at risk to herself - both of ridicule and injury.  I doubt he would be upset about a girl fighting; he has obviously taught his daughter to be an effective protector.  And I think he realizes he would likely made an idiot of himself.  He can obviously ride, but I doubt he has any real skill at it.

The descriptions of Lyanna make clear that she was an extremely accomplished rider, not just for a girl, but overall.  I remember Jaime saying something to the effect that jousting was about 90 % riding ability. She probably felt that she had a good chance of winning, and if she lost, her armor was essentially worthless, so no loss there.  If it was Howland, I would have expected him to take the Starks up on their offer of equipment.  Jousting with borrowed armor would be difficult.  Jousting with bits and pieces?  I fail to see the point.  On the other hand, nobody is going to loan Lyanna anything.

I think the greathelm may be the same one used in the tournament, in which case Meera is probably carrying it in order to return it to the Starks.  I can't think of any other reason she would have it.  They inhibit vision and movement, both of which Meera depends on.

I have no particular problem with Howland Reed being the mystery knight.  I just don't think the available evidence points in that direction.  It points in the direction of Lyanna, and the greathelm doesn't really change that.  As a clue, it is ambiguous, and while it helps Howland's case, Lyanna's is still better.  

[LynnS]

1 minute ago, Nevets said:

I have no particular problem with Howland Reed being the mystery knight.  I just don't think the available evidence points in that direction.  It points in the direction of Lyanna, and the greathelm doesn't really change that.  As a clue, it is ambiguous, and while it helps Howland's case, Lyanna's is still better.  

Thanks for your comment.  I'm OK with it.  Although, obviously I disagree with the narrative.   I think if Howland did anything, he proved his worth and this may be the beginning of his bond of friendship with Ned.  I think for a man of the time and lord of his people; he would want to restore his own honor and that of his house himself.

Curiously, or maybe not, nobody wants to step over the line into the magical realm of Bran's divine intervention.  But I don't think we will really know about this until the end of TWOW or early into a Dream of Spring. 

[Nevets]

7 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Curiously, or maybe not, nobody wants to step over the line into the magical realm of Bran's divine intervention.  But I don't think we will really know about this until the end of TWOW or early into a Dream of Spring. 

I certainly don't.  It smacks of deus ex machina, and I don't think GRRM plays that game.  Characters do things for their own reasons with their own abilities, for the most part.  They may be guided to a certain place magically, but I think GRRM prefers characters being the masters of their own destiny.

Of course, Howland may have gotten an answer to his prayers along the lines of "Lyanna is going to kick their asses.  Watch, smile, and admire."

[LynnS]

4 minutes ago, Nevets said:

I certainly don't.  It smacks of deus ex machina, and I don't think GRRM plays that game.  Characters do things for their own reasons with their own abilities, for the most part.  They may be guided to a certain place magically, but I think GRRM prefers characters being the masters of their own destiny.

Of course, Howland may have gotten an answer to his prayers along the lines of "Lyanna is going to kick their asses.  Watch, smile, and admire."

It's not really deux ex machina though.  Because he has said us he's using it.  The problem is how do we know when he's using it if you don't have a POV.  He's not going to tell us anything but he will show us.  He has said as much.  So what has he shown us?  I list the areas where I think we have been shown upthread.

The reason I think that the tourneys is one of these closed loops (for lack of a better term) is because it's one of the central mysteries in the story.  Martin is the master of red herrings. Initially readers were sent in all directions, but he put enough in there to whittle it down to Lyanna.  This whole story leads to the romance narrative between Rhaegar and Lyanna.  That's a crowd pleaser.  I think RLJ works for him because its difficult to dig out from under it.  It stops anyone from getting too close to the things he doesn't want revealed too soon.  After 10 years, I say to hell with that. 

We should be suspicious of Bran's desire to be a knight for a day, to visit the Isle of Faces and the green men.  We now know that Bran can travel the wiernet and he can most certainly go to the Isle of Faces.  He is not confined by time, we have seen that with tree-Bran at the Skirling Pass. We have seen Hodor summon Bran for help at BR's cave.  We have no idea what the green men can do or if Howland is indoctrinated in some way into that order.  I think it's highly likely that Bran will talk to Howland at some point in Bran's future and Howland's past and this is how he knows that Ned's unborn son will become a GSeer and why he intervenes to save Ned's life at the ToJ.  And I think Bran will get his wish to be a knight for a day.  It will be his dream of spring.

Martin can always say that the greathelm was right in front of us the whole time.  I'm mad at him for this, but I love him at the same time. 

 

 

[Megorova]

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

What happened after that is anyone's guess.  I like to think that neither Ned or Howland dealt a killing blow; that Arthur had already received a mortal wound. 

Yep, my guess is that Gerold Hightower was actually a Faceless Man (since way back, since the War of the Ninepenny Kings) and that he mortally wounded Arthur, though Arthur managed to kill Gerold before dying.

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

Jojen is there because of his green dreams and because Howland sent them to guide and protect Bran.

Poor Jojen is already dead. Meera probably too. It was their blood in that seed paste that the Children fed to Bran to "wed" him to a weirwood tree. When Bran will wake up, he will see that there's a tree growing from within of his stomach thru his body - muscles, internal organs, bones - and that he is binded to that cave, same as Bloodraven and all those Children that Bran saw thru Hodor's eyes, while he was secretly exploring the cave.

Will you be very disappointed if it will be revealed that Jojen is dead and thus instead of (how you phrased it?) - "overcoming the odds when they are not in your favor" and becoming a teacher for Bran, Jojen's story will end (actually has already ended, in Bran's last chapter in ADWD, that's why Jojen and Meera didn't returned - the Children killed them and used their blood as a part of a ritual to connect Bran to the Weirwood Network), and that will be the extent of what Jojen and Meera were - baits and sacrifices using which the Children got Bran?

When Jojen got ill, he was supposed to die. Instead the Weirwood temporarely saved his life, and gave him several more years to live. And in exchange for that years later Jojen was ordered to lure Bran beyond The Wall and to bring him to the cave. During his coma-dream Bran managed to fly, the 3EC saved him. And Jojen during the similar experience has fallen down onto those icy spikes. Those spikes are the Weirwood Network, the source of the Others. Jojen got hooked, but Bran managed to escape and no matter how many Weirwood-dreams he had afterwards, the Children/Others/Bloodraven/Old Gods didn't managed to possess him. Thus, to get him they needed to manually connect with him, and that's why Jojen lied to Bran that the 3EC wants them to go to that cave, and there they made him to eat Weirwood seeds, and now out of those seeds the Weirwood tree will begin growing like a parasite inside Bran's body. There, you know where Jojen died as soon as he served his purpose - to get Bran to that cave, and Meera afterwards became useless character and was "washed out" of off the plot.

It seems that you don't understand what kind of books GRRM is writing. ASOIAF is not some sort of fairytale in which good boys and girls win and save the day by being brave and overcoming the odds. Remember the Red Wedding, what happened to Tyrion's Tysha, to Elia and her children, to Robert Baratheon's bastards (including newborn Bara), how fellow Night's Watchers butchered Lord Commander Jeor Mormont, how Oberyn Martell was killed by the Mountain, etc., etc., etc. ASOIAF is THAT kind of story.

Get ready, summer child, because the winter is coming. Bran will get a cruel wake up call, and Jojen is already gone. Most likely. Because this kind of possibility seems to be more in the same pattern as what GRRM has wrote before. Have you read "The Song for Lya"? You know why Lya didn't came to say goodbuy to Robb, and didn't let him to see her for the last time? That's because she got infected with the parasitic mold and her consciousness merged with the mold's hive-mind. ASOIAF's Weirwood Network is the same kind of thing as that parasite from Lya's Song. What kind of place could there be for Jojen and Meera amongst the Children who are infected with the Weirwood and joined by it into a hive-mind? Do you really think that they will get away from there in one piece and will be victorious? Yeah, right. That's not gonna happen.

[LynnS]

26 minutes ago, Megorova said:

It seems that you don't understand what kind of books GRRM is writing.

This is coming from the girl who thinks she knows the astrological signs of all the characters in the book.  Do you really want to be so smug with me?  I suggest you stop now.

[TheMiddleHero]

The KoLT is Eddard. Has always been Eddard. It is the reason the the Reed kids think Bran knows the story. Ned listened to the the "little crannogman's" prayer while he slept in his tent. Ned being honorable and never being one to seek glory, answered the prayers of the "little crannogman."

 

There are no "Gods." Old Gods, New Gods, The Seven, Lord of Light etc.

 

Ned is not big in stature, he is much shorter than Brandon, Caitlin even thinks this at their wedding.

 

Ned fits the bill completely. He knows how to joust. He values honor. Has the "Booming Voice."  He chooses not to "show off" his abilities. We are just jumping through hoops looking for some other answer, whether it fits RLJ or not.

 

He regrets it because it had unintended consequences to his families house, his sister and overall the well being of the kingdom. Just look at his fever dream when his grabs the the crown of blue roses.

[LynnS]

8 minutes ago, TheMiddleHero said:

He regrets it because it had unintended consequences to his families house, his sister and overall the well being of the kingdom. Just look at his fever dream when his grabs the the crown of blue roses.

Interesting.  Why does he have ill fitting armour?

[TheMiddleHero]

He was a Mystery Knight, thrown together at the last second.

[LynnS]

3 hours ago, TheMiddleHero said:

He was a Mystery Knight, thrown together at the last second.

OK well, I'm a bit surprised that Ned didn't have his own armour and also I thought he was otherwise pre-occupied in the castle that night with the dancing and Ashera Dayne.

[LynnS]

17 hours ago, direpupy said:

<snip> i have decided that this post could only lead to more off topic discussion so i deleted it

Do we know if the Starks entered any of the competitions at the tourney?  The melee, archery or jousting?

[LynnS]

9 hours ago, TheMiddleHero said:

There are no "Gods." Old Gods, New Gods, The Seven, Lord of Light etc.

Martin did say there isn't a god in this story.  I would say that was true if we are talking about a god who created the universe and everything in it.  In this story there are Gseers with god-like power who are worshipped as gods in that sense. These are the gods I'm talking about.  We know they exist, so it's not really deus ex machina.  We just don't what they can do.  What sort of powers Bran will have at his disposal. These are the gods Howland asks for help. 

 

[Tucu]

At LynnS request, this is a partial repost from the Heresy thread:

 In his last chapter, Meera and Jojen are gone. He connects to the weirwoods without supervision and seems to do things that BR and Leaf considered impossible:

Quote

Watching the flames, Bran decided he would stay awake till Meera came back. Jojen would be unhappy, he knew, but Meera would be glad for him, He did not remember closing his eyes. … but then somehow he was back at Winterfell again, in the godswood looking down upon his father.

“Father.” Bran’s voice was a whisper in the wind, a rustle in the leaves. “Father, it’s me. It’s Bran. Brandon.” Eddard Stark lifted his head and looked long at the weirwood, frowning, but he did not speak.

Quote

The night was windless, the snow drifting straight down out of a cold black sky, yet the leaves of the heart tree were rustling his name. "Theon," they seemed to whisper, "Theon."

The old gods, he thought. They know me. They know my name. I was Theon of House Greyjoy. I was a ward of Eddard Stark, a friend and brother to his children. "Please." He fell to his knees. "A sword, that's all I ask. Let me die as Theon, not as Reek." Tears trickled down his cheeks, impossibly warm. "I was ironborn. A son … a son of Pyke, of the islands."

A leaf drifted down from above, brushed his brow, and landed in the pool. It floated on the water, red, five-fingered, like a bloody hand. "… Bran," the tree murmured.

 

 

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, Tucu said:

In his last chapter, Meera and Jojen are gone. He connects to the weirwoods without supervision and seems to do things that BR and Leaf considered impossible:

Thank you.  I think in the examples above that we are being shown that there are some limitations to what Bran can do.  That he is not going to be able go back and change things willy-nilly.  In the first example Ned is dead in Bran's timeline and Theon is alive.  To make the psychic connection, the character has to be alive in Bran's timeline.  To effect any change, he has to make agents who act on his behalf.  Which I suspect he will do with his siblings and a few other characters, like Theon.

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Bran III

"All," Lord Brynden said. "It was the singers who taught the First Men to send messages by raven … but in those days, the birds would speak the words. The trees remember, but men forget, and so now they write the messages on parchment and tie them round the feet of birds who have never shared their skin."

Old Nan had told him the same story once, Bran remembered, but when he asked Robb if it was true, his brother laughed and asked him if he believed in grumkins too. He wished Robb were with them now. I'd tell him I could fly, but he wouldn't believe, so I'd have to show him. I bet that he could learn to fly too, him and Arya and Sansa, even baby Rickon and Jon Snow. We could all be ravens and live in Maester Luwin's rookery.

 So in the case of the KotLT, Bran has already made the change, by making Howland his instrument, and the story remains the same.

[Megorova]

16 hours ago, LynnS said:

 I suggest you stop now.

Fine.

[direpupy]

2 hours ago, LynnS said:

Do we know if the Starks entered any of the competitions at the tourney?  The melee, archery or jousting?

Yes Brandon entered the Joust.

A Game of Thrones - Eddard XV
Yet when the jousting began, the day belonged to Rhaegar Targaryen. The crown prince wore the armor he would die in: gleaming black plate with the three-headed dragon of his House wrought in rubies on the breast. A plume of scarlet silk streamed behind him when he rode, and it seemed no lance could touch him. Brandon fell to him, and Bronze Yohn Royce, and even the splendid Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning.

[alienarea]

In my understanding it makes a lot more sense for Howland Reed to be the Knight of the Laughing Tree than Lyanna.

Howland is highborn and would have had the right to participate in the tourney, but didn't. As a highborn son he would have some education in fighting and jousting.

As jousting is more about riding than physical strength, his smaller body isn't that important as when fighting with the squires on foot. In other words, he has better chances for his revenge in jousting.

On the other hand, Lyanna. She's the daughter of a lord, and though she practices fencing with Benjen and is an excellent rider, she is not a spearwive or a warrior princess.

We do not know that she ever practiced jousting.

Though riding skills are probably more important in jousting than knowing how to hold the lance, you still need a basic understanding of how to hold the lance, where to point it, and how the impact of hitting your opponent feels. Without having jousted before, Lyanna could not have unseated the three squires.

Finally, the Tower of Joy. Howland is riding there with Ned's other close friends, though they are not known as the best fighters, they know how to handle their weapons. Would Howland be one of them, if he didn't know how to use his weapons?

Ned doesn't participate in tourneys because he doesn't want to show off how skilled he is. I guess it is a similar case with Howland. If he weren't skilled enough to deal with the squires in jousting, how would he be able to save Ned from Arthur Dayne?