Howland Reed is the KotLT - Proof by Canon

[LynnS]

I don't really have much more to say about the KotLT.  For the record,  I don't know who Jon's father is and I don't have any strong preference in that regard,  I think the options and opportunities are limited..  I don't know what happened to Lyanna from the time Rhaegar fell upon her outside of Harrenhall ,until Ned finds her in her bed of blood.  I don't know when or where that happened.  

I do think that since Dany is now looking like the PWIP/AA instead of Jon; that we should re-evaluate our old assumptions.

Quote

And all for naught. They found only darkness, dust, and rats. And dragons, lurking down below. He remembered the sullen orange glow of the coals in the iron dragon's mouth. The brazier warmed a chamber at the bottom of a shaft where half a dozen tunnels met. On the floor he'd found a scuffed mosaic of the three-headed dragon of House Targaryen done in tiles of black and red. I know you, Kingslayer, the beast seemed to be saying. I have been here all the time, waiting for you to come to me. And it seemed to Jaime that he knew that voice, the iron tones that had once belonged to Rhaegar, Prince of Dragonstone.

The day had been windy when he said farewell to Rhaegar, in the yard of the Red Keep. The prince had donned his night-black armor, with the three-headed dragon picked out in rubies on his breastplate. "Your Grace," Jaime had pleaded, "let Darry stay to guard the king this once, or Ser Barristan. Their cloaks are as white as mine."

Prince Rhaegar shook his head. "My royal sire fears your father more than he does our cousin Robert. He wants you close, so Lord Tywin cannot harm him. I dare not take that crutch away from him at such an hour."

I didn't realize that Rhaegar spoke in iron tones.  I always thought he spoke in melancholy tones.

Thanks for your comments and thanks for listening.

 

[direpupy]

17 hours ago, LynnS said:

I can't find anything about tilting at rings or running at rings in the books or the world book or Lyanna's wiki.  What is the source?

All I find is Bran possibly having experience with tilting at quintains. 

 Even if Lyanna tilted at rings, it doesn't prepare her for making a blow with a lance or taking one; which is far more dangerous.

 

15 hours ago, alienarea said:

Can you please provide a quote?

 

5 hours ago, Springwatch said:

The wiki claims it's in the world of ice and fire - I've tried to track it down a few times with no success. I wonder if it's an error based on Daena, who is very similar in some ways.

There must be something in this - if we're constantly being told jousting is mainly about being a skilled rider, then the horse must be shifted about to help land a blow, or avoid an attack. Loras does it, and he's the best, so it must be a good tactic.

So to answer all of these at ones, its from they World of Ice and Fire app for which GRRM has provided additional information that is not in the books.

However since all additional information is from GRRM it is canon information.

[LynnS]

3 minutes ago, direpupy said:

So to answer all of these at ones, its from they World of Ice and Fire app for which GRRM has provided additional information that is not in the books.

However since all additional information is from GRRM it is canon information.

Thanks.  I don't have the App since I thought the World Book would be enough.  I will add the same caveat to the APP as the World Book and Wiki about 'unreliable narrators". 

To repeat; practising at rings doesn't make Lyanna skilled enough to win the day.  We might want to make her the hero of the story but there is simply no evidence for it.   

[direpupy]

Just now, LynnS said:

Thanks.  I don't have the App since I thought the World Book would be enough.  I will add the same caveat to the APP as the World Book and Wiki about 'unreliable narrators". 

To repeat; practising at rings doesn't make Lyanna skilled enough to win the day.  We might want to make her the hero of the story but there is simply no evidence for it.   

Not to be bothersome but your own evidence for your theory is no more compelling or definitive then the evidence for Lyanna, i personally think both Lyanna and Howland are candidates, but i also think Benjen is a candidate.

I have moved Howland up from least likely of the three to tied with Lyanna because of this tread in my personal list of candidates, so you did make an impact on my ideas on the subject. I do really like the Bran being the one who answers the prayer theory it would be very cool if this was the case.

[LynnS]

1 minute ago, direpupy said:

Not to be bothersome but your own evidence for your theory is no more compelling or definitive then the evidence for Lyanna, i personally think both Lyanna and Howland are candidates, but i also think Benjen is a candidate.

I have moved Howland up from least likely of the three to tied with Lyanna because of this tread in my personal list of candidates, so you did make an impact on my ideas on the subject. I do really like the Bran being the one who answers the prayer theory it would be very cool if this was the case.

That's ok. You are not bothering me.  I just want you to think about it.  

[direpupy]

5 minutes ago, LynnS said:

That's ok. You are not bothering me.  I just want you to think about it.  

Thanks.  I am thinking about it.

P.S.

I forgot to to add to my previous post that they information on Lyanna riding at rings is from her APP bio, so its not subject to unreliable narrator since the bio is based on GRRM's personal notes on Lyanna.

[LynnS]

1 minute ago, direpupy said:

I forgot to to add to my previous post that they information on Lyanna riding at rings is from her APP bio, so its not subject to unreliable narrator since the bio is based on GRRM's personal notes on Lyanna.

I give less weight to a source that is not readily available to everyone.  Martin himself has warned us about using unreliable narrators.  Stating that Lyanna practiced at rings is canon but its still only speculation that it makes her the most likely candidate for the Tree Knight.  This is a backstory that largely emerges as a pre-requisite to the romance story.  And that story gets us to Jon as the PWIP/AA which is the initial purpose for RLJ.  So if the end result is no longer true; why is it important for Lyanna to be the tree knight?.

 

[direpupy]

1 minute ago, LynnS said:

I give less weight to a source that is not readily available to everyone.  Martin himself has warned us about using unreliable narrators.  Stating that Lyanna practiced at rings is canon but its still only speculation that it makes her the most likely candidate for the Tree Knight.  This is a backstory that largely emerges as a pre-requisite to the romance story.  And that story gets us to Jon as the PWIP/AA which is the initial purpose for RLJ.  So if the end result is no longer true; why is it important for Lyanna to be the tree knight?.

 

O no i did not mean that it made her more likely, it was just that i wanted to make sure you understood where they information was coming from and that it was from a bio not a story written down by a maester like in the world book.

You should also not confuse they App with the book even do they have the same name, the App is actually older and is a companion guide with information about the people, houses, places, and maps of the Known World, unlike the wiki all information on they app has passed under they eye of GRRM for his approval.

It is therefore in terms of weight up there with the books.

[LynnS]

1 minute ago, direpupy said:

It is therefore in terms of weight up there with the books.

I'm sure it has a lot of very useful information.  I quite enjoy the World Book.  

[direpupy]

5 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I'm sure it has a lot of very useful information.  I quite enjoy the World Book.  

Me to, not going to lei it is expensive to get all of the app i have not bought all of the information packs myself.

[LynnS]

Just now, direpupy said:

Me to, not going to lei it is expensive to get all of the app i have not bought all of the information packs myself.

I am old fashioned this way.  I prefer a beautiful book in my hands, artwork, etc.  It was well worth the money I paid for it and I'm missing it at the moment, having leant it to my niece.   I do love maps and my next purchase will likely be the Atlas of Ice and Fire.

 

[Megorova]

@LynnS I won't veer off topic (at least I'll try ).

 

14 hours ago, alienarea said:

Can you please provide a quote?

+

4 hours ago, Springwatch said:

The wiki claims it's in the world of ice and fire - I've tried to track it down a few times with no success.

 

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Lyanna_Stark

"Appearance and Character

According to a semi-canon source, Lyanna also practiced at tilting at rings.^[21]"

[21] - George R. R. Martin's A World of Ice and Fire, Lyanna Stark."

 

You won't find that information in the book, because the source 21 is not "The World of Ice and Fire" book, it's the mobile app version of it called A World of Ice and Fire.

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/A_World_of_Ice_and_Fire

"A World of Ice and Fire, sometimes titled George R. R. Martin's A World of Ice and Fire — A Game of Thrones Guide,^[1] is a companion guide available as a mobile app for iOS and Android. The reference work, which contains information about the people, houses, places, and maps of the Known World, was written by Elio M. García, Jr. and Linda Antonsson of Westeros.org with input from George R. R. Martin.^[2][3]"

GRRM thru that app provided additional information about some characters, including Lyanna. So George is the source of that information that Lyanna was practicing skills that would have been useful in a tournament.

 

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

Why is it so important that Lyanna is the KotLT at this point.  Does it still serve the RLJ narrative?  The whole purpose of which was to get Jon into the PWIP/AA driver's seat.  Is that even true anymore? 

Even if Jon is dead (which I doubt), he will be brought back with fire-magic.

And it's important that Lyanna was KotLT because maybe her appearance as a Mystery Knight was written in the prophecy.

I think that Rhaegar eventually realised that Lyanna should be the mother of his third child because in the book "Signs and Portents" her masquerading as the Knight of the Laughing Tree was one of the omens that heralded the birth of the Promised Prince. Rhaegar read that prophecy, those signs, and incorrectly interpreted them that HE should become a knight, while actually what the book meant is that the mother of the Promised Prince will be a knight. 

The Knight of the Laughing Tree is the mother of the Promised Prince <- that's the meaning of omens written in the Book that recorded prophetic visions seen by Daenys the Dreamer. That book/prophecies recorded in it, is mentioned multiple times in ASOIAF and companion books.

The Mystery Knight novel - "Egg lowered his voice. "Someday the dragons will return. My brother Daeron's dreamed of it, and King Aerys read it in a prophecy.""

"Born amidst salt and smoke, beneath a bleeding star. I know the prophecy. Not that I would trust it.^[6] —Marwyn, to Samwell Tarly"

The source of Marwyn's knowledge of the prophecy is the same as Rhaegar's source.

 

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/The_Book_of_Lost_Books

 

"The Book of Lost Books is a book written by Archmaester Marwyn. In it, Marwyn claims to have obtained three pages of the legendary, long-lost Signs and Portents.^[1]"

 

Marwyn got those three pages of Daenys' book from Rhaegar, who possibly found the book's remnants at Summerhall's ruins.

 

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Rhaegar_Targaryen#Early_life

"Rhaegar often liked to visit the ruins of Summerhall with only his harp and when he returned he sang songs of such beauty they could reduce women to tears."

"As a child he read obsessively, to the point that jests were made about his habits. He became a noted warrior later in life, although he did not initially seem inclined to martial habits. However, apparently by something he had read, Rhaegar became motivated to become a warrior.^[20]"

ASOS, Dany I - "Until one day Prince Rhaegar found something in his scrolls that changed him. No one knows what it might have been, only that the boy suddenly appeared early one morning in the yard as the knights were donning their steel. He walked up to Ser Willem Darry, the master-at-arms, and said, 'I will require sword and armor. It seems I must be a warrior.'""

 

"

What fools we were, who thought ourselves so wise! The error crept in from the translation. Dragons are neither male nor female, Barth saw the truth of that, but now one and now the other, as changeable as flame. The language misled us all for a thousand years. Daenerys is the one, born amidst salt and smoke. The dragons prove it.^[1]

—Aemon, to Samwell Tarly

"

Lyanna was a dragonseed (I'm not veering off topic, I'm explaining). Her great-grandmother - Melantha Blackwood - (possibly) was a granddaughter of Aegon IV Targaryen (her mother was Aegon's daughter - Mya Rivers, Bloodraven's sister), so Lyanna was 1/32 dragonseed and Rhaegar's third cousin. She was a "dragon", in Valyrian language dragons have no gender, so when in the prophecy in her book Daenys wrote about a dragon-knight / the Knight of the Laughing Tree, - Rhaegar, maester Aemon and maester Marwyn - those who have read that prophecy - didn't realised that that part of it, the one about a knight, was about a woman, a "dragon"-woman who posed as a knight.

GRRM in his books is frequently using parallels. There was a prophecy about a dragon-(fake)-knight, a tree, and a falling star. Though that prophecy was about more than one event with those omens.

The first of them was about Duncan the Tall, who was a hidden dragon, because his parents were Daemon I Blackfyre and Daenerys Targaryen. There was a tree and a falling star on his sigil. And because of that sigil Rohanne Webber (the Ghost of High Heart, Jenny's woodswitch) recognized Dunk as the dragon-man who has to become the father of her child, and later that child (Jenny of Oldstones) during the Summerhall's burning gave birth to Melisandre (daughter of Prince Duncan Targaryen), at the same time when Queen Rhaella was giving birth to Rhaegar. Melisandre is the Kingmaker, she will crown the Promised Prince, it's all part of the prophecy. Because Rhaegar was born on that same day, he thought that he is the Kingmaker, he thought that he will make/create/father the child that will become the Prince that was Promised.

So there's Duncan the Tall, a hidden dragon, his elm-tree and a falling star, his granddaughter Melisandre - the Kingmaker - born at the Summerhall, and Rhaegar, who also was born at the Summerhall, and who is the father of the Promised Prince - Jon - who was born at Starfall under the bleeding stars, and his mother - Lyanna - was a hidden dragon and a Knight of the Laughing Tree. There was a tree on her made-up sigil and there was a fallen star at Starfall (it's where the visions brought Azor Ahai, who then from the heart of that fallen star forged Lightbringer/Dawn of Daynes, and then his son, the first Dayne, build on the star's crash site a castle, at which thousands years later Lyanna gave birth under the bleeding stars to the Promised Prince), same as there was a tree and a falling star on Duncan the Tall's made-up sigil. Melisandre is the Kingmaker, and Rhaegar, who was born on the same day, is a Queenmaker, because with the crown of blue roses he crowned Lyanna as the Queen of Love and Beauty.

It's a sequence - trees, falling stars, fake knights who are hidden dragons (neither Dunk nor Lyanna were real knights, though they were "dragons", and dragons are neither male nor female <- what maester Aemon said, so the KotLT was a female). It's all part of the prophecy, it's about the Prince that was Promised (Jon, son of Rhaegar and Lyanna), and also about his ancestors and the ancestors of the person who will crown him - Melisandre, the Kingmaker.

So Lyanna being the Knight of the Laughing Tree is relevant because it's the part of the prophecy, it was a sign, an omen, thanks to which Rhaegar realised that Lyanna should become the mother of his third child. Rhaegar and Lyanna eloped together not solely out of love, but because they were using that prophecy as a guidance.

And don't blame me for all of that being so convoluted and incorrigible, and scattered all over the place, because it's GRRM who wrote his books with all those encrypted twists and turns that mislead the readers. Though back on topic - it is relevant that Lyanna is KotLT not solely because it's a parallel to events that has already occured in the distant past (I'm talking about Dunk&Egg and Robert's Rebellion), but because GRRM is using in his writing not just any kinds of parallels, he specifically uses trinities - certain events in made-up by him history will happen three times. The first time dragon-knigh-tree-falling star-event has occured in early 200's, the second time it happened in 280's (Harrenhal's tournament, Robert's Rebellion, etc.). And the third time it will happen in the following books.

Lyanna as KotLT is tied in the middle of a triptych of events that were predicted by Daenys the Dreamer (three sequences of events predicted by the same omens; one prophecy and three separate events that fulfill it). [Triptych is a picture or relief carving on three panels, typically hinged together side by side and used as an altarpiece.] So Lyanna as KotLT can't be cut out of that picture, and Howland doesn't fit there, so he isn't KotLT. But you are free to keep believing otherwise.

22 hours ago, LynnS said:

 I want to keep this OP more tightly focused.     

But that's not how GRRM writes his books. You can't (figuratively speaking) while discussing an alphabet to discuss A, B, M, U, Z, and to cut out/ignore the other letters present in it. KotLT is a part of a bigger picture, just one of the details that are interconnected in the bigger picture of ASOIAF's plot. You are just ignoring how KotLT is connected to that bigger picture, and what is his/her (whoever it was) role in it. Howland being KotLT doesn't serve any purpose, greater purpose, while Lyanna being KotLT is a part of a pattern connected to RLJ. Though even RLJ is not the end/edge/final of that Bigger Picture, instead RLJ is merely a beginning (or rather the middle, the second out of the three foretold events).

You're focusing on the wrong place, but whatever. Good luck with finding New York on the map of Australia. Have fun.

[LynnS]

3 minutes ago, Megorova said:

And it's important that Lyanna was KotLT because maybe her appearance as a Mystery Knight was written in the prophecy.

I think that Rhaegar eventually realised that Lyanna should be the mother of his third child because in the book "Signs and Portents" her masquerading as the Knight of the Laughing Tree was one of the omens that heralded the birth of the Promised Prince. Rhaegar read that prophecy, those signs, and incorrectly interpreted them that HE should become a knight, while actually what the book meant is that the mother of the Promised Prince will be a knight. 

The Knight of the Laughing Tree is the mother of the Promised Prince <- that's the meaning of omens written in the Book that recorded prophetic visions seen by Daenys the Dreamer. That book/prophecies recorded in it, is mentioned multiple times in ASOIAF and companion books.

Are you saying the signs and portents stuff is expanded on in the APP because that would be very interesting to me and I'd like to see what it actually says.  That's an OP in itself though.  I have to say I'm tired now and don't know how you did 16 OPs all at once.

[Megorova]

2 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Are you saying the signs and portents stuff is expanded on in the APP because that would be very interesting to me and I'd like to see what it actually says. 

No.

3 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I have to say I'm tired now and don't know how you did 16 OPs all at once.

I was gradually writing them in 16 separate Word documents, from January to May. Not at once. You funny girl.

I'm out.

[LynnS]

1 minute ago, Megorova said:

No.

I was gradually writing them in 16 separate Word documents, from January to May. Not at once. You funny girl.

I'm out.

Oh damn!  I got all excited!     We really should have a sings and portents thread though.  Don't you think?

[Melifeather]

SSM 11/11/2005

Quote

His least favorite to write is Bran, as he is the youngest so you have to look at every word to see if an eight year old would know it and every situation to try to see it as an eight year old would understand it, he is crippled and therefore more reactive than active, and his chapters have the most magic thus far. 

According to the author, Bran's chapters have the most magic in them. When Bran insists that the little crannogman was the KofLT, he says it as if he knows. In Heresy we've discussed the side effects of time travel which include "memories" of both the past and of the future. Bran experiences time the same as the weirwoods do. The seed, sapling, and full grown tree are one. 

Quote

...The oak is the acorn, the acorn is the oak. And the weirwood … a thousand human years are a moment to a weirwood, and through such gates you and I may gaze into the past.

My apologies in advance if anyone has brought up the following passage that I am about to post. I haven't had a chance to read all 8 pages of debate yet!

I'm a firm believer in the parallels, metaphors, and analogies in the text and I believe the joust between Loras and Gregor is a repeat of the Knight of the Laughing Tree:

Quote

 

A Game of Thrones - Eddard VII

When the Knight of Flowers made his entrance, a murmur ran through the crowd, and he heard Sansa's fervent whisper, "Oh, he's so beautiful." Ser Loras Tyrell was slender as a reed, dressed in a suit of fabulous silver armor polished to a blinding sheen and filigreed with twining black vines and tiny blue forget-me-nots. The commons realized in the same instant as Ned that the blue of the flowers came from sapphires; a gasp went up from a thousand throats. Across the boy's shoulders his cloak hung heavy. It was woven of forget-me-nots, real ones, hundreds of fresh blooms sewn to a heavy woolen cape.

His courser was as slim as her rider, a beautiful grey mare, built for speed. Ser Gregor's huge stallion trumpeted as he caught her scent. The boy from Highgarden did something with his legs, and his horse pranced sideways, nimble as a dancer. Sansa clutched at his arm. "Father, don't let Ser Gregor hurt him," she said. Ned saw she was wearing the rose that Ser Loras had given her yesterday. Jory had told him about that as well.

 

The man slender as a reed is Howland, dressed in a suit of fabulous silver armor polished to a blinding sheen and filigreed with twining black vines and tiny blue forget-me-nots. Howland is “dressed” and “cloaked” - a clear nod to a glamouring. The twining black vines and the blue forget-me-nots indicate a joined connection, perhaps an instance of consensual skinchanging. Is it possible that the slender reed riding the grey mare is a hint that Howland rode a horse that was being skin changed by Lyanna much like Bran rides Hodor? The grey represents House Stark and the the girl who loved blue flowers, who was so good on horseback that she was called a centaur, was the host.

I believe it was Ravenous Reader that has made a connection between "silver" and the weirwoods. She likened greensee-ing and slipping into weirwoods as basically putting on silvery weirwood "gowns". So I think the fabulous silver is a reference to the greenseers or Green Men that were working the magic. 

I think the reason why GRRM made Loras "gay" is because the KotLT was a mixture of male and female, Howland and Lyanna.

 

[LynnS]

8 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

Howland is “dressed” and “cloaked” - a clear nod to a glamouring.

This is interesting because one of Howland's magics is that he can "weave words".  I've been wondering what it meant.  Melisandre talking about glamour:

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A Dance with Dragons - Melisandre I

Melisandre touched the ruby at her neck and spoke a word.

The sound echoed queerly from the corners of the room and twisted like a worm inside their ears. The wildling heard one word, the crow another. Neither was the word that left her lips. The ruby on the wildling's wrist darkened, and the wisps of light and shadow around him writhed and faded.

The bones remained—the rattling ribs, the claws and teeth along his arms and shoulders, the great yellowed collarbone across his shoulders. The broken giant's skull remained a broken giant's skull, yellowed and cracked, grinning its stained and savage grin.

 

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A Dance with Dragons - Melisandre I

Jon Snow turned to Melisandre. "What sorcery is this?"

"Call it what you will. Glamor, seeming, illusion. R'hllor is Lord of Light, Jon Snow, and it is given to his servants to weave with it, as others weave with thread."

Mance Rayder chuckled. "I had my doubts as well, Snow, but why not let her try? It was that, or let Stannis roast me."

 

[Melifeather]

1 minute ago, LynnS said:

This is interesting because one of Howland's magics is that he can "weave words".  I've been wondering what it meant.  Melisandre talking about glamour:

 

 

I edited my post while you were composing, so you may have missed the Ravenous Reader idea of the silver sheen as being a connection to the weirwoods. He/She said slipping into the trees was akin to putting on a silvery gown and greenseeing, a nod to the old gods and greenseers that were involved in the magical transformation.

[Tucu]

5 minutes ago, LynnS said:

This is interesting because one of Howland's magics is that he can "weave words".  I've been wondering what it meant.  Melisandre talking about glamour:

 

 

Quote

The strongest glamors are built of such things. A dead man's boots, a hank of hair, a bag of fingerbones. With whispered words and prayer, a man's shadow can be drawn forth from such and draped about another like a cloak. The wearer's essence does not change, only his seeming

 

[LynnS]

3 minutes ago, Tucu said:

The strongest glamors are built of such things. A dead man's boots, a hank of hair, a bag of fingerbones. With whispered words and prayer, a man's shadow can be drawn forth from such and draped about another like a cloak. The wearer's essence does not change, only his seeming

An iron greathelm?